29 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:Q: Does Sense require you to spend 1 Force before measuring range to other ships?
A: No. You can measure range to see which ships are at range 0–1 and which ships are at range 0–3 before deciding whether or not to spend the Force to affect a ship at range 0–3.Does this precedent effect anyone’s thoughts???
It confirms mine, that you measure before spending.
15 hours ago, JBFancourt said:Q: Does Sense require you to spend 1 Force before measuring range to other ships?
A: No. You can measure range to see which ships are at range 0–1 and which ships are at range 0–3 before deciding whether or not to spend the Force to affect a ship at range 0–3.Does this precedent effect anyone’s thoughts???
Not really no.
In that question Sense is Still being performed, the only question is at which range. Vader is still a "perform the ability or not to perform it" which i dont see this question answering.
6 minutes ago, Lyianx said:Not really no.
In that question Sense is Still being performed, the only question is at which range. Vader is still a "perform the ability or not to perform it" which i dont see this question answering.
Well, no, that’s the point. If I have a ship at range 2 only, I get to measure first and decide IF I want to spend the force. If not, then Sense is never used.
16 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:Well, no, that’s the point. If I have a ship at range 2 only, I get to measure first and decide IF I want to spend the force. If not, then Sense is never used.
No, it still gets used. Sense can almost Always be performed. If you have a ship just beyond range 3, and also at range 1, and you measure to the ship beyond 3, discover its out of range, you can opt to not spend the force, but the ship at range 1 is still a legal target (you being at range 0 are also still a valid target, unless you are ionized), so sense would still resolve, even if you just didn't want to look at the dial. Its not like you backed sense out of the queue and undid it. The only time it would fail to resolve is if you were ionized, had no other ships at 0-1, and opt'ed not to spend the force which you can do be cause the ability gives you the option to spend it.
But what if there are only ships at range 2-3 when you measure?
You clearly still have the option to choose not to spend the force.
That's the point that clarifies Vader, for me at least. If you can choose not to spend the force on Sense when you only have targets available for the force-spending option, you can choose not to spend the force for Vader when you only have targets for the force-spending option.
6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:But what if there are only ships at range 2-3 when you measure?
You clearly still have the option to choose not to spend the force.
For sense? You can still choose yourself. Range 0-1 always applies. So again, unless you are ionized and have no dial, it still hits yourself.
8 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:If you can choose not to spend the force on Sense when you only have targets available for the force-spending option, you can choose not to spend the force for Vader when you only have targets for the force-spending option.
Your not seeing the difference.
Vader : choose 1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2
and spend 1 [force]
Sense: choose 1 ship at range 0-1. If you spend 1 [force] , you may choose a ship at range 0-3 instead.
For sense, spending the force is optional because the ability *says* its optional. For Vader, its required.
Again, im just responding JB in that it doesn't change clarify Vader. If Vader does in fact, work completely optimally, then he might as well say "may choose an enemy ship" because who the **** would ever willingly choose one of their own ships (Imperial. Scum, i can see the purpose)?
3 minutes ago, Lyianx said:
Vader : choose 1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2 and spend 1 [force]Sense: choose 1 ship at range 0-1. If you spend 1 [force] , you may choose a ship at range 0-3 instead.
For sense, spending the force is optional because the ability *says* its optional. For Vader, its required.
But you get to find out what targets there are, before making the decision, is the point.
So, you have to show your opponent your dial? 😅
I really don’t think so. And that just isn’t what the FAQ says.
Well I guess it says look not reveal. So you announce I’m using sense to look at my own dial!!! 😜
Edited by JBFancourt1 minute ago, JBFancourt said:So, you have to show your opponent your dial? 😅
I really don’t think so. And that just isn’t what the FAQ says.
No, Sense says "You may look at the dial". Nothing about revealing it to the opponent.
3 minutes ago, Lyianx said:No, Sense says "You may look at the dial". Nothing about revealing it to the opponent.
Right. I still think that the point of the FAQ is that you can opt not to use Sense AFTER you measure.
But I see your argument too
5 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:before making the decision
..about which ship to choose, sure. I still don't believe (in my personal opinion) that you can opt to not spend the force, in order to avoid choosing a valid target. But rather, if there are no valid targets, then force isnt spent. If you can, then thats kinda cheap.
It just says MAY CHOOSE A SHIP on Vader. I feel like if my ship is the only valid target I don’t HAVE to choose it.
7 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:It just says MAY CHOOSE A SHIP on Vader. I feel like if my ship is the only valid target I don’t HAVE to choose it.
With Vader you definitely don't have to choose your own ship, your own ship is not a valid target at all.
14 minutes ago, Lyianx said:..about which ship to choose, sure. I still don't believe (in my personal opinion) that you can opt to not spend the force, in order to avoid choosing a valid target. But rather, if there are no valid targets, then force isnt spent. If you can, then thats kinda cheap.
So, if you choose to use Sense, and you measure and find there are no targets at r0-1, and you choose to try to find targets at r0-3, and there aren't any other than yourself, do you have to reveal your own dial, and in that instance, do you or do you not have to spend the force?
32 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:With Vader you definitely don't have to choose your own ship, your own ship is not a valid target at all.
So, if you choose to use Sense, and you measure and find there are no targets at r0-1, and you choose to try to find targets at r0-3, and there aren't any other than yourself, do you have to reveal your own dial, and in that instance, do you or do you not have to spend the force?
I mean another friendly ship. If Soontir is in my arc and is the only valid target I feel like the MAY still governs whether I do damage to him or not.
There’s always a target at range 0 -yourself. Thus you never HAVE to spend force. I believe is what he’s saying.
Edit: ahhh I get ya! Yes exactly my point! Thx. The whole point is you get to measure before committing to spending force.
Edited by JBFancourtIt says If you spend force you can measure 0-3 then choose. According to @Lyianx you can always choose 0 and not spend force, but according this interpretation even if you choose Range 0 you’d still be in the 0-3 spent force step. The point of the FAQ is you make the decision AFTER you have gained the knowledge. Prior to FAQ, as soon as you measure beyond R1 you’re committed to spending force.
Which is silly and poor wording. It should just say choose a ship at 0-3. If it is beyond range 1 spend a force. Or something similar.
Point is, the FAQ strongly supports when there is a pay cost to do something at range X, you get to measure range before spending cost.
14 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:There’s always a target at range 0 -yourself. Thus you never HAVE to spend force. I believe is what he’s saying.
That isnt what im saying, but im over it at this point. Ill just wait on ffg to chime in if they ever will.
2 hours ago, Lyianx said:Again, im just responding JB in that it doesn't change clarify Vader. If Vader does in fact, work completely optimally, then he might as well say "may choose an enemy ship" because who the **** would ever willingly choose one of their own ships (Imperial. Scum, i can see the purpose)?
isn't that exactly what he says, though?
10 minutes ago, meffo said:isn't that exactly what he says, though?
He says ship not enemy ship.
@Lyianx the question is whether there’s risk of unwanted self inflicted friendly damage or not.
So if the ONLY ship is mine, am I committed to do Vader’s effective.
Edited by JBFancourt23 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:He says ship not enemy ship.
@Lyianx the question is whether there’s risk of unwanted self inflicted friendly damage or not.
So if the ONLY ship is mine, am I committed to do Vader’s effective.
ah, you're right, my bad.
he still says may choose though, which should mean you can measure and make a decision. still haven't seen a convincing argument for why you have to choose a ship if you measure.
1 hour ago, meffo said:ah, you're right, my bad.
he still says may choose though, which should mean you can measure and make a decision. still haven't seen a convincing argument for why you have to choose a ship if you measure.
If you read the beginning of the post, you’ll see the prevailing argument for it. 🙄
27 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:If you read the beginning of the post, you’ll see the prevailing argument for it. 🙄
still not a convincing argument at all, though. his card states that you may choose a ship in your forward arc at range 0-2 and spend a force - and if you do...
well, you may choose a ship and spend a force means you may choose a ship and spend a force, nothing else.
saying that the "may" on vaders card means something other than how "may" is defined in the rules reference is, quite frankly, hogwash.
Just answer this.
Why can Vader target his own ships, and why would you ever want to willingly?
Go.
57 minutes ago, Lyianx said:Just answer this.
Why can Vader target his own ships, and why would you ever want to willingly?
Go.
If Vader were in S&V I'd have an answer...
On 8/25/2019 at 3:50 PM, JBFancourt said:I was flying Vader Crew. The judge of the event ruled that if I chose to use Vader, I could be forced to damage one of my own ships (excluding Vader’s carrier).
Thoughts on this??? I disagreed, but didn’t say so. Just went with it. Could we unpack this, please? Thanks!
I AGREE! Lol. 😝
My original post above. And several agreed with the judges call. They stated that once you chose to do Vader if there were only your own ships in arc at 0-2 I’d have to pick my own!!
I thought it was silly. But like I said, many agreed with the judge’s call.