My current opinion of how to interpret Vader comes from the most recent ruling for Sense ... that you measure range to all viable targets, THEN choose whether or not to spend a force to look at a dial farther than Range 0-1. In Vader's case, you have to know what ships are available targets, before deciding to spend the force and activate the ability (maybe stripping a single token from a heavily-defended ship isn't worth losing that force token for a possible dice modification on defense).

EDITED ADDENDUM: Here's how I interpret how Vader works:

• In order to add Vader's ability into the Ability Queue, you have to make sure his triggers are valid at the time. The Requirement for Vader, as defined in the recent online ruling, is that there must be "1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2...", at the Timing of "At the start of the Engagement Phase." This means that if there is no legal ship in the range, you cannot add Vader to the queue (even if an enemy ship later moves into range).
• When it comes time to Resolve Vader's ability, you defer to the Sense ruling, and check ranges to viable targets (your own included), then decide whether or not to choose a ship and spend the force. If you do spend force, the chosen ship suffers the effects... if you don't, they don't.

The only hitch I have in this, is whether Vader's ability, once added to the queue, is mandatory or optional. Once someone adds an ability to the queue, if it can be resolved, must it be resolved? Or can the controlling player choose to abandon an ability once it's in the queue?

47 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

The Requirement for Vader, as defined in the recent online ruling, is that there must be "1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2...

That isn't a requirement to add his ability to the queue. From what i read, range/arc requirements being part of the ability are only considered if its an attack, which this is not. Him having an Active Force token, however, is a requirement.

50 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

The only hitch I have in this, is whether Vader's ability, once added to the queue, is mandatory or optional. Once someone adds an ability to the queue, if it can be resolved, must it be resolved? Or can the controlling player choose to abandon an ability once it's in the queue?

This is a question I have as well (and have submitted to FFG, not expecting a response tho).

2 hours ago, Lyianx said:

*shrug* I have attempted to explain, but nobody seems to care because they wouldn't like vader if he worked that way. I understand im out numbered, and until FFG says otherwise, will play it the generally accepted way.. it just.. doesnt feel correct, i guess is the best way i can put it.

Meh... you’re not the only one! As noted at the beginning of the post, my HST Judge ruled that Vader HAD to damage a friendly if put into the stack.

That being said..... WE’RE ON TO PAGE 4!!!!! WOOHOO 🙌

Seems pretty clear to me. "..., you may choose a ship and spend a force. If you do..." So if you don't choose a ship or don't spend a force, then nothing happens.

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

My current opinion of how to interpret Vader comes from the most recent ruling for Sense ... that you measure range to all viable targets, THEN choose whether or not to spend a force to look at a dial farther than Range 0-1. In Vader's case, you have to know what ships are available targets, before deciding to spend the force and activate the ability (maybe stripping a single token from a heavily-defended ship isn't worth losing that force token for a possible dice modification on defense).

EDITED ADDENDUM: Here's how I interpret how Vader works:

• In order to add Vader's ability into the Ability Queue, you have to make sure his triggers are valid at the time. The Requirement for Vader, as defined in the recent online ruling, is that there must be "1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2...", at the Timing of "At the start of the Engagement Phase." This means that if there is no legal ship in the range, you cannot add Vader to the queue (even if an enemy ship later moves into range).
• When it comes time to Resolve Vader's ability, you defer to the Sense ruling, and check ranges to viable targets (your own included), then decide whether or not to choose a ship and spend the force. If you do spend force, the chosen ship suffers the effects... if you don't, they don't.

The only hitch I have in this, is whether Vader's ability, once added to the queue, is mandatory or optional. Once someone adds an ability to the queue, if it can be resolved, must it be resolved? Or can the controlling player choose to abandon an ability once it's in the queue?

no such thing as triggers. according to the new posts from the devs, you could say that vader triggers at the start of engagement, but that's not rules reference language. to be more precise, his ability can be added to the ability queue at the start of the engagement phase. there is nothing indicating his requirements are that there needs to be 1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2 for his ability to be added to the queue, though. the only "requirement" is being able to pay the cost as outlined by this post (please note that it isn't defined as an ability's requirement, but it essentially functions the same way):

"Q: When is the cost for an ability paid?

A: The cost for an ability is paid when the ability is resolved.

An ability cannot be added to the queue if its cost could not be paid at the time it is added.

If an ability's cost cannot be paid when it would be resolved from the queue, the ability is not resolved and is instead removed from the queue. The ability's cost is not paid.

An ability can have multiple costs. If it does, all costs must be paid to resolve it. If all costs cannot be paid, no costs are paid and the ability is removed from the queue and not resolved."


furthermore, the actual post about ability requirements goes on to say:

"Q: What is meant by a "requirement" for an ability?

A: A requirement for an ability is a conditional if-statement, such as "if you are tractored" or "if the defender is in your bullseye arc." A ship being in-arc at range for an attack made as part of a triggered ability, such as Snap Shot or Foresight, is also a requirement for that ability.

If an ability's requirements are not met at the time the ability would be added to the queue, it cannot be added to the queue.

If the ability's requirements are not met at the time the ability would be resolved from the queue, the ability is not resolved and is instead removed from the queue.

If an ability instructs you to make a choice, such as choosing a ship, that is not itself a requirement to initiate an ability."


so even if there are no ships you could choose, you can still add his ability to the queue and attempt to resolve it. it cannot fail - and you do not need to do anything. if you do not want to pay for the ability or if you do not wish to resolve the ability when it's time to resolve it, you can decline, as outlined by this part of the rules reference:





as you can see, Darth Vader's card clearly states: "At the start of the Engagement Phase, you may choose 1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2 and spend 1 (force). If you do, that ship suffers 1 (hit) damage unless it chooses to remove 1 green token.

that means you may choose, as in you have the option to choose, but that you can also decline. the only things required to add his ability to the queue are that it's the start of the engagement phase and that the ship he's on has an active force charge.

the ability is still resolved, even if you do not choose 1 ship in your firing arc. just like sense, the ability goes into the queue and is resolved. it does not matter if you choose to spend the force or not, the option is there and the ability is resolved whether you choose to spend the force or if you decline. it doesn't always affect the game state directly, but you can gain information from it and consider your options.

quite disgusting, i know. i'm never getting a decimator, so probably never playing Vader crew, unless i put him on a reaper or something. lambda? nah, don't think i'd be willing to pay for him on that chassis. i'm happy phantoms don't have a crew slot anymore.

3 minutes ago, meffo said:

[LOTS AND LOTS OF WORDS]

I have one basic question, then; a simple yes or no answer will suffice. Can Old Teroch's pilot ability be added to the queue if he is not within an enemy ship's firing arc at Range 0-1?

• If yes , then Darth Vader works exactly as you described; you don't need to have a target in range/arc to add Vader to the ability queue; you only check when Vader actually resolves.
• If no , then it's because there was no valid target for Teroch's ability at the time it needed to be added to the ability queue... and Vader has to work the same way. If he does not have a valid target, he cannot add the ability to the ability queue.

5 hours ago, MadTownXWing said:

I think you might be right that the 0-2 for Vader is not a requirement but it has nothing to do with "choosing a ship". When I read this originally I saw the part about "a ship being in-arc at range" and for some reason assumed that ranges were automatically a requirement for all abilities. Rereading it I can see that it's specifically only a requirement for attacks as a result of an ability.

Theoretically if Vader's ability was worded so that it said "At the start of the Engagement Phase, if an [enemy] ship is in your firing arc at range 0-2 then..." the range would then become a requirement because "if" is a magic word now.

To summarize

• The lack of the word "if" and/or the lack of the ability triggering an attack are what keeps 0-2 from being a requirement.
• The presence of "choose" does not cause something that would be a requirement to no longer be a requirement.

Does that sound right?

seems right, but also sounds like you're making understanding the rules about abilities and ability's requirements more difficult than they are. "choose" is not a term used for requirements as far as i know. the normal terminology is something along the lines of "you may choose..." and then "if you do...". if an ability has this wording, it doesn't necessarily have any requirements, even though it might. you could see the "if you do..." as a requirement for the rest of the ability, but if you've gotten that far, the ability is already in the queue and is already being resolved, meaning it normally isn't an ability's requirement.

"A requirement for an ability is a conditional if-statement, such as "if you are tractored" or "if the defender is in your bullseye arc." A ship being in-arc at range for an attack made as part of a triggered ability, such as Snap Shot or Foresight, is also a requirement for that ability."

of course, you can interpret it to mean that the "you may choose..." and "if you do..." are also ability's requirements, since the wording does contain the now magical "if" word, but that's not really consistent with what the ruling says, since "you may choose..." is part of the ability's resolution and thus, the "if you choose..." seems to be a conditional if-statement of the ability's resolution rather than on a specific part of the game state referenced as an ability's requirement. would love to see someone argue that interpretation. in another thread.

6 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

I have one basic question, then; a simple yes or no answer will suffice. Can Old Teroch's pilot ability be added to the queue if he is not within an enemy ship's firing arc at Range 0-1?

• If yes , then Darth Vader works exactly as you described; you don't need to have a target in range/arc to add Vader to the ability queue; you only check when Vader actually resolves.
• If no , then it's because there was no valid target for Teroch's ability at the time it needed to be added to the ability queue... and Vader has to work the same way. If he does not have a valid target, he cannot add the ability to the ability queue.

yes, sir!

Just was messing around with a scum squad and noticed this....

Does anyone say that if I choose to try and tractor an enemy ship, find out it’s outside range 1, that I MUST do it to one of my own friendly ships at range 1, even if I don’t want to???

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of that. 🤔

1 hour ago, JBFancourt said:

Just was messing around with a scum squad and noticed this....

Does anyone say that if I choose to try and tractor an enemy ship, find out it’s outside range 1, that I MUST do it to one of my own friendly ships at range 1, even if I don’t want to???

I don’t think I’ve ever heard of that. 🤔

According to what most here are saying, no. You do not have to choose your own ship. Its kind of unclear if, once an ability is put into the ability queue, if it then *must* attempt to be resolved, or if you can cancel it from the queue by deciding not to resolve it.

But unlike Vader, Ketsu's ability *can* have positive effects on your own ships, so i can actually see it as a useful resolution, to tractor your own ship, as it allows you to reposition it. So her being able to target friendly ships makes sense. Vader being able to do it (to me), does not.

I guess tho the rub is if it’s a MUST or not once measured.

3 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I guess tho the rub is if it’s a MUST or not once measured.

My interpretation (that I'm about 75% confident in) is that, no, you are not required to follow through, even after you measure, thanks to the recent ruling on Sense ( Rules Reference , Page 27, lower left quadrant):

Quote

Q: Does Sense [ Force Power ] require you to spend 1 [force charge] before measuring range to other ships?

A: No. You can measure range to see which ships are at range 0–1 and which ships are at range 0–3 before deciding whether or not to spend the [force charge] to affect a ship at range 0–3.

If you agree that this same rule would/could/should apply to Vader (again, I'm about 75% in favor of doing so), that means that you are still allowed to decline to act. It also means you measure and choose (or decline to choose) before spending force.

The flip side is whether or not (or when) you can choose to "abort" an ability that has already been queued. Is there a point of no return, or not, and what is that point?

Somebody pointed out that a barell roll is also an option, although you cannot measure if it fits and then just resign to perform it.

Do we seriously argue here whether or not one has to "eyeball" enemy ship's position not to be forced to damage their own ship standing in front of Lambda?

Do you seriously consider being forced to kill your own ship if you've "guessed" the ranges and arcs wrong is an option?

Seriously?

Republic Chopper is your display boy of an ability that you have to use against your will and against your own friendly ship. Not Vader Crew.

3 hours ago, Ryfterek said:

Do we seriously argue here whether or not one has to "eyeball" enemy ship's position not to be forced to damage their own ship standing in front of Lambda?

Do you seriously consider being forced to kill your own ship if you've "guessed" the ranges and arcs wrong is an option?

Seriously?

Republic Chopper is your display boy of an ability that you have to use against your will and against your own friendly ship. Not Vader Crew.

Exactly how I feel! However, it’s not theoretical. My Hyperspace Trial judge ruled this way (and so have others). See the first post. 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄

On 10/12/2019 at 9:05 PM, emeraldbeacon said:

My interpretation (that I'm about 75% confident in) is that, no, you are not required to follow through, even after you measure, thanks to the recent ruling on Sense ( Rules Reference , Page 27, lower left quadrant):

If you agree that this same rule would/could/should apply to Vader (again, I'm about 75% in favor of doing so), that means that you are still allowed to decline to act. It also means you measure and choose (or decline to choose) before spending force.

The flip side is whether or not (or when) you can choose to "abort" an ability that has already been queued. Is there a point of no return, or not, and what is that point?

There is something you are forgetting about sense and why that works. For sense, even if you dont spend the force, the ability can still attempt resolve. You dont have that same situation with Vader.

On 10/13/2019 at 4:05 AM, Ryfterek said:

Do you seriously consider being forced to kill your own ship if you've "guessed" the ranges and arcs wrong is an option?

That really doesn't seem so far fetched as you might think for Vader, considering in 1E he dealt 2 damage to you for his effect, and Ruthlessness had a chance of damaging your own ships if you 'guessed' in correctly and still wanted to attack.

2 hours ago, Lyianx said:

There is something you are forgetting about sense and why that works. For sense, even if you dont spend the force, the ability can still attempt resolve. You dont have that same situation with Vader

Actually, that’s slightly wrong. Once you check for the range past 1 you’re onto the next step even if you go ahead and pick a ship at 0-1, you’ll still have to pay. Which is exactly why the FAQ saying you can measure first THEN decide your target is so important and relevant to Vader IMHO.

3 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

Actually, that’s slightly wrong. Once you check for the range past 1 you’re onto the next step even if you go ahead and pick a ship at 0-1, you’ll still have to pay. Which is exactly why the FAQ saying you can measure first THEN decide your target is so important and relevant to Vader IMHO.

erm...

Quote

Q: Does Sense require you to spend 1 [Force] before measuring range to other ships?

A: No. You can measure range to see which ships are at range 0–1 and which ships are at range 0–3 before deciding whether or not to spend the [Force] to affect a ship at range 0–3.

1 hour ago, Maui. said:

erm...

(Point made is here)

(You’re over here)

20 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

Actually, that’s slightly wrong. Once you check for the range past 1 you’re onto the next step even if you go ahead and pick a ship at 0-1, you’ll still have to pay. Which is exactly why the FAQ saying you can measure first THEN decide your target is so important and relevant to Vader IMHO.

You're ignoring what im saying. Regardless if you choose to spend a force or not, Sense can still trigger. Spend a force? Pick a ship 0-3. Dont spend a force? Pick a ship a 0-1.

Vader Spend a force? Pick a ship. Dont spend a force? You decide to not attempt to resolve the ability at all.

THAT is the difference. Not spending a force charge on sense doesn't inherently, cause it to fail to resolve. That wouldn't be you choosing to not resolve Sense. It would be you selecting which one it attempts to resolve and letting it fail as a result.

That is what im getting at.

29 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

You're ignoring what im saying. Regardless if you choose to spend a force or not, Sense can still trigger. Spend a force? Pick a ship 0-3. Dont spend a force? Pick a ship a 0-1.

Vader Spend a force? Pick a ship. Dont spend a force? You decide to not attempt to resolve the ability at all.

THAT is the difference. Not spending a force charge on sense doesn't inherently, cause it to fail to resolve. That wouldn't be you choosing to not resolve Sense. It would be you selecting which one it attempts to resolve and letting it fail as a result.

That is what im getting at.

good point, but you're not 100% consistent.

according to the interpretation that you have to pick a ship and spend a force if you can after placing the ability into the queue, there is no choice while resolving the ability. the "you may pick a ship in your firing arc at range 0-2"-part must be resolved when placing the ability into the queue according to that interpretation.

or in other words: Vader spend a force? yes you have to if you can. not like sense where it's optional.

that's why i think it's incorrect. the card says you may, which means its completely optional, just like you describe it.

also, not choosing a ship and not spending a force is not a failure, it's just opting for another resolution, where you check and decide not to choose a ship. failing is a game term. abilities cannot fail.

15 minutes ago, meffo said:

according to the interpretation that you have to pick a ship and spend a force if you can after placing the ability into the queue,

I'm not saying (at least, not at this point) straight up that's how it is, or even how i think it is. Just that its *Possible* that's how it may work. I'm only entertaining the *possibility* here because im not 100% convinced its Not possible. As it is right now, i would play it as most here are agreeing to play it. That isn't the issue. I'm just entertaining the possibility that, it may not be the intended way he is to be played.

That's all.

18 minutes ago, meffo said:

that's why i think it's incorrect. the card says you may, which means its completely optional, just like you describe it.

I'm still leaning on the side of the fence that the 'option' of that, is the option to add it to the queue, and the question has been brought up on if an ability is put into the queue, is it still optional to resolve. *If* (and i stress if) it is not, then that "may" would indeed only be the option to add to the queue or not, and not an option to prevent it from resolving at all, once you do decide to put it into the queue.

21 minutes ago, meffo said:

failing is a game term. abilities cannot fail.

As a whole, maybe not, but their effects can. Which is what im talking about. An ability in a queue is merely an effect of the whole ability.

34 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

I'm not saying (at least, not at this point) straight up that's how it is, or even how i think it is. Just that its *Possible* that's how it may work. I'm only entertaining the *possibility* here because im not 100% convinced its Not possible. As it is right now, i would play it as most here are agreeing to play it. That isn't the issue. I'm just entertaining the possibility that, it may not be the intended way he is to be played.

That's all.

I'm still leaning on the side of the fence that the 'option' of that, is the option to add it to the queue, and the question has been brought up on if an ability is put into the queue, is it still optional to resolve. *If* (and i stress if) it is not, then that "may" would indeed only be the option to add to the queue or not, and not an option to prevent it from resolving at all, once you do decide to put it into the queue.

As a whole, maybe not, but their effects can. Which is what im talking about. An ability in a queue is merely an effect of the whole ability.

ok, i think i understand. clearly, FFG needs to further clarify the ability queue and how it works.

if we take a look our beloved jake farrel example in the appendix, page 20, of the rules reference, it seems like jake chooses a target for his ability while he's resolving the ability - and not before that.

i'd certainly like for there to be some further description of how abilities that use the word "may" should interact with the ability queue, though.

it's also worth noting that FFG did post something that can be of relevance to this very recently, on what's considered a requirement for an ability. last line of text in that post reads like this:

"If an ability instructs you to make a choice, such as choosing a ship, that is not itself a requirement to initiate an ability."

i really read it like you can put abilities in the queue and then make the choice when the ability resolves, remembering of course that you can always decline to choose if it's part of a may-statement in the ability's text.

or in other words, i don't really see the other option as open. not that i ever did, but that's a different story all together.

5 hours ago, Lyianx said:

You're ignoring what im saying. Regardless if you choose to spend a force or not, Sense can still trigger. Spend a force? Pick a ship 0-3. Dont spend a force? Pick a ship a 0-1.

Vader Spend a force? Pick a ship. Dont spend a force? You decide to not attempt to resolve the ability at all.

THAT is the difference. Not spending a force charge on sense doesn't inherently, cause it to fail to resolve. That wouldn't be you choosing to not resolve Sense. It would be you selecting which one it attempts to resolve and letting it fail as a result.

That is what im getting at.

Let me try again:

Sense is NOT a single ability which enters the queue and THEN causes you to spend force beyond range 0-1.

It’s two separate abilities. Which do you place in the queue?

Option 1 : no force, range 0-1 only

Option 2 : spend force, 0-3, regardless if in 0-1, force is spent.

This is BEFORE you get to measure for resolution.

You picked Option 1 and ship is range 2? Too bad can’t spend force to see it’s dial.

You picked Option 2 and ship is range 1? Cool. But you still gotta spend force.

THENNNNN.... FAQ came along and said you can MEASURE BEFORE DECIDING what enters the queue.

WHICH has (edit: potentially) tremendous impact on Vader Crew. Or Ketsu or whomever.

Thus.... my comment.

IMHO, just pondering, get your point too, et cetera.

23 hours ago, meffo said:

"If an ability instructs you to make a choice, such as choosing a ship, that is not itself a requirement to initiate an ability."

i really read it like you can put abilities in the queue and then make the choice when the ability resolves, remembering of course that you can always decline to choose if it's part of a may-statement in the ability's text.

Ah, i can see that.

I personally read that like you were not required to make the choice *when* you put it into the queue. For example..

Ability trigger - You can add this ability to the queue to pick a ship. Do you want to pick a ship? Yes/No

Ability resolve - Which ship do you pick?

Where as your reading it (and very likely correctly so) as

Ability trigger - Add this ability to the queue? Yes/No

Ability resolve - Do you want to pick a ship? If yes, which one?

22 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

It’s two separate abilities. Which do you place in the queue?

See, i dont see it as two separate abilities, only one ability that can be resolved in one of two ways. "Gonk", is two abilities. R5 Astromech, is two abilities.

For sense, it, as a whole, is placed into the queue, its just up to you, during the resolution, how you resolve it. Saying you have to pick at the time it enters the queue suggests you can measure range at that time. But the range for sense isn't a requirement for it to be put into the queue, so you are not allowed to measure it. So far, the only time you can measure when putting abilities in the queue, is if its in the ability's requirements, or the ability is an attack.

22 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

THENNNNN.... FAQ came along and said you can MEASURE BEFORE DECIDING what enters the queue.

Except it says you can measure before deciding. It didnt say anything about the queue. Its wording also doesnt suggest such a timing. To me, it wording suggests it happens during the resolution, not adding it to the queue.