2 hours ago, Lyianx said:

Just answer this.

Why can Vader target his own ships, and why would you ever want to willingly?

Go.

Yes, and to let it remove a token that would have been stolen by palob.

6 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yes, and to let it remove a token that would have been stolen by palob.

While I can see the utility of this, I wonder why the ship just didn't choose not to token up if they were going to end up in Palob's arc.

Because it didn't expect palob to be there obviously.

5 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

While I can see the utility of this, I wonder why the ship just didn't choose not to token up if they were going to end up in Palob's arc.

Moved before Palob

I would like to add that Vader cannot choose the ship he is on because you are not in your own arc. Rules reference page 3 right under arcs “Arcs are measured beyond the base of ships.” so a the very least you can’t accidentally Vader your own transportation.

3 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

@Lyianx

I AGREE! Lol. 😝

My original post above. And several agreed with the judges call. They stated that once you chose to do Vader if there were only your own ships in arc at 0-2 I’d have to pick my own!!

I thought it was silly. But like I said, many agreed with the judge’s call.

I think you missed the point of my question. Which was, if Vader has the ability to damage friendly ships, and he also has the ability to pull back and not target any ships if the ships he can target, are not what he wants to target, why would a player ever intentionally choose to damage their own ships? What was FFG's intent behind allowing Vader to target friendly ships? Because if what some in this thread are saying, the only possible way for an imperial player to damage their own ships (or remove a token) via Vader, is because the player WANTS to damage their own ships (or remove green tokens, which are always positive).

So, what situations would an imperil player ever decide to do that? So many are strongly arguing that, that is how he works. But if that is truly how he works, i do not understand FFG's intent behind why it works that way.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Because it didn't expect palob to be there obviously.

HWK's are nice, but they aren't *that* maneuverable, or unpredictable.

@Lyianx

I think it’s inconsistent wording honestly. I feel like trying to guess RAI is very ..... risky. I just can’t get past the MAY.

But I now understand you. And I actually kinda like the fun of playing the risk of it. Lol.

I do feel that FAQ did lean things sharply towards when a condition of an effect calls for range, it is measured prior to decision making. Whether or not that is intentional??? Who knows...

2 hours ago, JBFancourt said:

I think it’s inconsistent wording honestly.

What? Would FFG do that? 😝

But yeah, that's all im trying to get across. I honestly don't (or try very hard) to not make counter points "just because i want it to work that way" or something like that. I may have misinterpretations sometimes, but more often then not, they are rooted in (what i think are) fair arguments. I'm not personally attached to any one card or build where if they change the rules on it, its going to 'ruin my play'. I just like the text to make logical sense.

I understand the "may", i just think the may means something different. lol. Who knows at this point. But yeah, i think it makes the game more interesting if Vader had some risk to him. Feels like it fits him far more (he didnt work like that exactly in 1E, but he did cause self damage to do his effect).

“If an ability instruct you to make a choice, such as choosing a ship, that is not itself a requirement to initiate an ability.”

Does this have bearing on Vader Crew?

45 minutes ago, JBFancourt said:

“If an ability instruct you to make a choice, such as choosing a ship, that is not itself a requirement to initiate an ability.”

Does this have bearing on Vader Crew?

It means that this part..

"You may choose 1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2 and spend 1 [force]"

...isn't required to add it to the ability queue for its trigger of "At the start of the Engagement Phase". So you are not concerned with checking to see if a ship is at range 0-2 at the time its triggered. Only when you go to resolve it. Meaning if first player has some ability that lets them re-position at the start of the engagement phase, its possible for them to move out of Vaders ability range after hes added his ability into the queue (cant think off hand if any such ability exists, but in case it does in the future).

34 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

It means that this part..

"You may choose 1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2 and spend 1 [force]"

...isn't required to add it to the ability queue for its trigger of "At the start of the Engagement Phase". So you are not concerned with checking to see if a ship is at range 0-2 at the time its triggered. Only when you go to resolve it. Meaning if first player has some ability that lets them re-position at the start of the engagement phase, its possible for them to move out of Vaders ability range after hes added his ability into the queue (cant think off hand if any such ability exists, but in case it does in the future).

Correct.

Vader's ability doesn't have a requirement (other than having the force available, I suppose), so it can be added to the queue without checking. And indeed, must be (i.e. there's no call to measure until it's resolved).

What happens if there is no target you want to use it on, is still up for debate I think, today's things haven't changed that.

it certainly looks like "you may choose a ship" means you can add it to the queue and when it's time to resolve, measure and then decide if you want to choose a ship or not. like it's always been. not everyone agrees for some reason, though...

1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

It means that this part..

"You may choose 1 ship in your firing arc at range 0-2 and spend 1 [force]"

...isn't required to add it to the ability queue for its trigger of "At the start of the Engagement Phase". So you are not concerned with checking to see if a ship is at range 0-2 at the time its triggered. Only when you go to resolve it. Meaning if first player has some ability that lets them re-position at the start of the engagement phase, its possible for them to move out of Vaders ability range after hes added his ability into the queue (cant think off hand if any such ability exists, but in case it does in the future).

Ugh, I disagree. I think

“ If an ability instruct you to make a choice, such as choosing a ship, that is not itself a requirement to initiate an ability. ”

means that making the choice is not a requirement but having a choice is still a requirement, as well as being able to pay the cost (1 force in this case).

I may be wrong on this but the word " itself " seems like they're trying to differentiate just the choosing part.

59 minutes ago, MadTownXWing said:

Ugh, I disagree. I think

“ If an ability instruct you to make a choice, such as choosing a ship, that is not itself a requirement to initiate an ability. ”

means that making the choice is not a requirement but having a choice is still a requirement, as well as being able to pay the cost (1 force in this case).

I may be wrong on this but the word " itself " seems like they're trying to differentiate just the choosing part.

Choosing a ship is part of resolving his ability. Being able to pick a ship or not, is not in itself a requirement, but having a force charger to spend IS a requirement to add it to the queue because he has to be able to resolve it. If he didnt need to spend the force charge to resolve his ability, then it could always go into the ability queue because (as they stated) being able to choose a ship is not a requirement.

1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

Choosing a ship is part of resolving his ability. Being able to pick a ship or not, is not in itself a requirement, but having a force charger to spend IS a requirement to add it to the queue because he has to be able to resolve it. If he didnt need to spend the force charge to resolve his ability, then it could always go into the ability queue because (as they stated) being able to choose a ship is not a requirement.

The way that I read it is that having 1 or more ships in your forward arc at range 0-2 is a requirement but choosing among those ships is not a requirement. Choosing "itself" is not a requirement. I don't read it as "if the phrase choose a ship is present then whatever follows is no longer a requirement".

Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part that abilities like Vader and abilities that affect multiple ships such as Chopper[pilot] are consistent. If you go with "choose a ship" means that the 0-2 requirement is not necessary for Vader to be added to the queue (but still necessary to resolve from the queue) then you create a situation where abilities that target 1 ship get to ignore range requirements for entry into the queue and abilities that target multiple still need to meet those requirements. Maybe this is their intention, maybe it isn't. I personally feel like there's some ambiguity in how they worded “ If an ability instruct you to make a choice, such as choosing a ship, that is not itself a requirement to initiate an ability ”.

37 minutes ago, MadTownXWing said:

The way that I read it is that having 1 or more ships in your forward arc at range 0-2 is a requirement but choosing among those ships is not a requirement. Choosing "itself" is not a requirement. I don't read it as "if the phrase choose a ship is present then whatever follows is no longer a requirement".

Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part that abilities like Vader and abilities that affect multiple ships such as Chopper[pilot] are consistent. If you go with "choose a ship" means that the 0-2 requirement is not necessary for Vader to be added to the queue (but still necessary to resolve from the queue) then you create a situation where abilities that target 1 ship get to ignore range requirements for entry into the queue and abilities that target multiple still need to meet those requirements. Maybe this is their intention, maybe it isn't. I personally feel like there's some ambiguity in how they worded “ If an ability instruct you to make a choice, such as choosing a ship, that is not itself a requirement to initiate an ability ”.

it's not, though. there is no "if you have a ship in your firing arc at range 0-2". also, the ability works for any firing arc, not just forward arc. the only ability's requirement on his card is that he need to be able to pay the cost when adding the ability to the queue.

your second paragraph is all correct, though. i think vaders ability is very consistent with choppers, except for the part where you need to be able to pay the cost to add vader to the queue. chopper has no cost. other than that, neither ability has a requirement. of course, the abilities are very different as well, since vader is optional thanks to the magic of the word may.

" A requirement for an ability is a conditional if-statement, such as "if you are tractored" or "if the defender is in your bullseye arc." A ship being in-arc at range for an attack made as part of a triggered ability, such as Snap Shot or Foresight, is also a requirement for that ability."

The "if" is a bit strangely placed but it is there, and with choosing never being part of the requirement is should be read as "if there is a ship in your firing arc at range 0-2 and you spend 1 force" as the requirement.

13 hours ago, meffo said:

since vader is optional thanks to the magic of the word may.

I'm still looking for reasons why you would want to target your own ships with him. Why did FFG allow that?

onestly i don't ger the "sense" of all this discussion..... seriously vader is clear, sense is clear.

2 minutes ago, Manolox said:

onestly i don't ger the "sense" of all this discussion..... seriously vader is clear, sense is clear.

Vader isn't fully clear to me. Hence my question.

15 hours ago, meffo said:

" A requirement for an ability is a conditional if-statement, such as "if you are tractored" or "if the defender is in your bullseye arc." A ship being in-arc at range for an attack made as part of a triggered ability, such as Snap Shot or Foresight, is also a requirement for that ability."

I think you might be right that the 0-2 for Vader is not a requirement but it has nothing to do with "choosing a ship". When I read this originally I saw the part about "a ship being in-arc at range" and for some reason assumed that ranges were automatically a requirement for all abilities. Rereading it I can see that it's specifically only a requirement for attacks as a result of an ability.

Theoretically if Vader's ability was worded so that it said "At the start of the Engagement Phase, if an [enemy] ship is in your firing arc at range 0-2 then..." the range would then become a requirement because "if" is a magic word now.

To summarize

• The lack of the word "if" and/or the lack of the ability triggering an attack are what keeps 0-2 from being a requirement.
• The presence of "choose" does not cause something that would be a requirement to no longer be a requirement.

Does that sound right?

2 hours ago, Lyianx said:

I'm still looking for reasons why you would want to target your own ships with him. Why did FFG allow that?

yes, why? why is there a game called x-wing? why do we exist?

i don't know. it's thematic? someone thought they should put the word enemy in there and someone objected it's not necessary? maybe someone decided a way to activate minister tua was needed?

honestly, i don't think it's relevant, but as you can tell, i'm happy to speculate.

2 hours ago, meffo said:

maybe someone decided a way to activate minister tua was needed?

I mean, thats far fetched, but i guess its at least a possible reason, but somehow i doubt that was FFG's intent.

And yeah, i know ive suggested they could have added the specific "enemy ship" qualifier in there, in fact that was my reasoning as to why vader should hit his own ships. Because to me, if you can trigger vader, put his ability into the queue, then be "oh, only my own ships are in range, eh, just kidding, no vader", then.. like. why Doesn't it specify enemy? No Imperial player in their right mind would damage their own ships unless there was something to be gained from it.

It honestly baffles me why he is Able to, when literally NO player ever would if they didnt have to.

2 minutes ago, Lyianx said:

I mean, thats far fetched, but i guess its at least a possible reason, but somehow i doubt that was FFG's intent.

And yeah, i know ive suggested they could have added the specific "enemy ship" qualifier in there, in fact that was my reasoning as to why vader should hit his own ships. Because to me, if you can trigger vader, put his ability into the queue, then be "oh, only my own ships are in range, eh, just kidding, no vader", then.. like. why Doesn't it specify enemy? No Imperial player in their right mind would damage their own ships unless there was something to be gained from it.

It honestly baffles me why he is Able to, when literally NO player ever would if they didnt have to.

i get where you're coming from - and i'm guessing the reason is simply because it's darth vader. he's a bad ***. he does what ever he feels like. force choking people is a pretty normal social interaction for him. he's no longer a whiny little brat like anakin.

i still don't see how it's not optional if you read his card, though.

2 minutes ago, meffo said:

i get where you're coming from - and i'm guessing the reason is simply because it's darth vader. he's a bad ***. he does what ever he feels like. force choking people is a pretty normal social interaction for him. he's no longer a whiny little brat like anakin.

i still don't see how it's not optional if you read his card, though.

*shrug* I have attempted to explain, but nobody seems to care because they wouldn't like vader if he worked that way. I understand im out numbered, and until FFG says otherwise, will play it the generally accepted way.. it just.. doesnt feel correct, i guess is the best way i can put it.