10 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:You get a playset (or more, in the case of neutrals) of everything (since a playset is "however many copies you can put in a single deck"), because the "Power of" are limited to 2 per deck and the uniques to 1 per deck.
Very true. Supertoe seemed to think you only get 2x copies of the non-uniques though, and I was just wondering if they thought that because of the suggested starter decks in the L2P book that’s been leaked.
Edited by iJiminy1 hour ago, CitizenKeen said:I don't know that I understand what you're getting at.
Your entire argument presupposes that choosing a hero isn't part of deckbuilding.
There will be mechanical differences between Iron Man and Captain America (16-22 cards). Choosing the right pairing of heroes with Aspects to tackle the hardest scenarios is part of the optimization problem. It's part of deckbuilding.
It's like pretending that almost all deck construction games don't have archetypes that you build around a ten-to-twenty core card idea to begin with. FFG has just defined the core archetype as "Iron Man" or "Ms. Marvel".
If you don't want to play certain heroes, that's great. That's absolutely your choice and I support it. But let's call it what it is - you're opting out of a certain amount of deckbuilding. Just because you're not participating in it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If my wife plays Aggression Captain Marvel, and I want to play with her, hero selection becomes part of my deckbuilding choice. It's definitely a key axis of how I decide what 40-50 cards are going in to my deck.
I don't see how I ever presuppose that choosing a hero isn't part of deckbuilding. It absolutely is, but I don't think that mixing a set of cards for a hero with a set of cards from an aspect is a lot of deckbuilding options. The aspects themselves at this release schedule would each only get what, fifteen new cards per year? That doesn't leave a lot of customization to say that I can build Spider-man with this Justice build. Then, I can do She-Hulk with an entirely different Justice build that compliments her better.
At the advertised release schedule, the new aspect cards are trickling in at a super slow rate. When you switch heroes but keep an aspect, you're only going to end up changing a couple of cards in the aspect deck. Maybe a card here that works better with your resource-curve, or maybe a different one that helps trigger a power that needs a resource-match. But, the bulk of that is going to be the best cards from the aspect and those aren't going to change for at least eleven months.
My argument isn't about choice, it's about depth. You have a lot of choices (basically # heroes times # aspects). But, this game doesn't look like it's going to provide any deckbuilding depth. That's why I would prefer aspect cards to release every month and will be upset if new hero decks contain reprinted cards.
Edited by gokubbThank you for wording that better than I did, Gokkub.
I agree that deck building isn’t really a strength of the game, but I’ve always been dubious of too flexible deck building in Co-op games because of how it effects the difficulty. Deck building obviously scales better in competitive card games because you need to keep up with opponents who are doing the same.
I’m looking at this differently to other LCGs I’ve played though - I will likely play it in 2 main ways - 4 players with my board game group. I expect we’ll all play a different aspect and potentially swap heroes around (especially as more come out). I expect some minor deck building as more options become available, but I’m not sure I’d see much of a need for more than one of each product for the 4 of us.
I also plan to play this solo. As a massive Marvel Comics fan, I think the theme will keep me very entertained for a long time. It’s appealing to me that I could potentially play just Spider-Man vs Green Goblin in a huge variety of ways without even doing any deck building with just the core and the first expansion - Spider-Man with 4 different aspects vs 2 different Goblin Scenarios, each with 9 different modules, and again 9 different times in expert mode - that’s 144 different ways to play that single match up without even altering a card in his deck or combining modules... I’ll definitely explore deck building as it develops, but I’m going to be plenty entertained even if I don’t bother with that aspect of it I think...
Edited by FearLord
On 8/9/2019 at 3:56 PM, gokubb said:A t the advertised release schedule, the new aspect cards are trickling in at a super slow rate. When you switch heroes but keep an aspect, you're only going to end up changing a couple of cards in the aspect deck.
I agree that the release schedule makes building around aspect cards pretty limited, but luckily for us, there's no restriction on how little we can run of them. We can choose 20 neutral cards and just 5 aspect ones to round up our decks.
I feel that, for the first few years, aspects won't be the detrimental part when deckbuilding but neutrals (+ hero, obviously).
Also, there's a 4th deckbuilding theme no one has mentioned yet: resources. In the future, resources might end up being an important part of our deck.
Take Carol Danvers for example. Her charge up cards want energy resources, so, when building decks for her, we might want to pick those that give us that resource type over others, even if the effects of the card are less optimal.
Or Peter Parker, who generates a mental resource per turn. We might build our decks around that and include as many mental demanding cards in our decks (like ally Black Widow).
There is defenetely depth in the deckbuilding. I would say, a lot more than Arkham (which is pretty limiting with both the class combination and the experience system reretricting our decks). What we are lacking is cards. That will change over time.
3 hours ago, xchan said:There is defenetely depth in the deck building. I would say, a lot more than Arkham (which is pretty limiting with both the class combination and the experience system reretricting our decks). What we are lacking is cards. That will change over time.
Hero + Neutral + Aspect is in no way greater depth than Arkham’s Investigator + Neutral + Class + Subclass
The sub-class or way you mix one class of cards with another is the depth in deckbuilding. LotR has it by allowing you up to three colors to include in a deck. Netrunner had with the influence out of faction cost. Game of Thrones has it with Treaty agendas. Destiny has it by allowing up to three colors. That’s depth. Those are the choices that separate a good deckbuilder from the bad.
I anticipate we’ll get a shapeshifter hero at some point that mixes aspects. That one hero will have the depth allowed by other games. But, the rest, will be cookie cutter. There will be a best Spider-man Justice build and they’ll all look 95% the same.
1 hour ago, gokubb said:Hero + Neutral + Aspect is in no way greater depth than Arkham’s Investigator + Neutral + Class + Subclass
The sub-class or way you mix one class of cards with another is the depth in deckbuilding. LotR has it by allowing you up to three colors to include in a deck. Netrunner had with the influence out of faction cost. Game of Thrones has it with Treaty agendas. Destiny has it by allowing up to three colors. That’s depth. Those are the choices that separate a good deckbuilder from the bad.
I anticipate we’ll get a shapeshifter hero at some point that mixes aspects. That one hero will have the depth allowed by other games. But, the rest, will be cookie cutter. There will be a best Spider-man Justice build and they’ll all look 95% the same.
Except class and subclass are determined by your investigator. You don't choose them. You can't mix and match classes at will, the same way you can in LotR or aGoT. If you want to mix Survivor cards with a Rouge subclass you have only one choice of an investigator (and then, experience might prevent you from mixing the interesting cards altogether. Same as Loyalty). I don't see the depth in that...
I mean, you are simplifying MC's deckbuilding saying Spiderman's Justice deck will be almost the same for everyone; but at least we have 4 different decks for hero already, one for each aspect. If you apply the same oversimplistic logic to Arkham, then there's only one possible deck for each Investigator. Zoey will always run a «cookie cutter» Guardian build and that's it. Zero variation, zero depth. With that point of view, how come 4 options don't offer more depth than just 1?
Having said that, we all know that there are different ways to build each Arkham investigator even though their classes are predetermined. The same will be true for each aspect. There will be multiple Spiderman Justice builds in the future, I'm sure of that. With more cards aspects will offer more options. There will be able to focus on allies, events, or locations; not to mention the extra layer of deckbuilding resources offer. We will be able to create a Mental focussed Protection deck to abuse Black Widow, or an Energy focussed Protection deck to abuse Captain Marvel Cosmic powers. Or create a mix of energy and fist (what's the name of it?) to abuse Tenacity, etc.
I don't understand why you are so set on ignoring all of this.
Edited by xchan
Right now, few hero cards combo with aspect cards. Outside a resource match here or there, which I did mention several posts above, there is going to be a best aspect build that is the same for nearly every hero. It may change a card or two, but without an adequate pool of aspect cards, there's going to be one build per aspect that you're going to find as the ideal. You're then going to take that and mix it with the hero you want. There's not going to be much swapping of that aspect when you then switch to a different hero. You end up with lots of combinations of deck options, but that aspect half is going to get old. That's just my opinion. There's not enough cards in the core for me or a fast enough release schedule. I'll build the ideal deck for each of the different aspects. Merge which I want with the hero I want and that's the depth of deckbuilding that this offers to me.
If you're happy with the options this gives you, great. I'll give you that Arkham out of the core was more similar to this. Arkham didn't really open up more deck strategy until that first deluxe pack where the investigators got to mix more level 0 cards from any class. But, you're right, Arkham deckbuilding isn't great, it's a weakness of the game. And yet, I still think it's going to be a better deckbuilding experience than for Marvel Champions. At least until we see every aspect get another set of cards or two, which at their release schedule is going to take at least seven months.
It's no secret that deck building will be lame with the core set alone. There are not enough cards in the box for a robust experience. I would imagine that in a year's time, after the release of 3-4 hero packs and the campaign expansion, we'll have enough aspect cards mess around with. With the modular sets, we'll have more than enough challenges to keep us entertained
On 8/12/2019 at 6:24 PM, Turtlefan2082 said:It's no secre t that deck build ing w ill be lame with the core set alone .
Let’s call it limited instead of lame 😅
I think think this is true with every LCG core box, so true enough, no secrets there
On 8/11/2019 at 9:16 PM, xchan said:I don't understand why you are so set on ignoring all of this.
I don’t think anybody is ignoring the deck building possibilities in Marvel (or any other LCG), but at the moment with only a single core set available there will not be an endless amount of variation.
I can imagine players will find out that certain aspects will work best with certain heroes, which will limit the combinations seen in play for the time being.
Also, as new player cards seem to be only slowly added to the pool, this will not change all that much all that quick.
The more product FFG releases for Marvel, the more varied things will get, so we will just have to wait and see.
On 8/12/2019 at 4:57 PM, gokubb said:Bu t , you're right, Arkham deckbuilding isn't great, it's a weakness of the game.
100% Disagree!
Well, I plan to play each hero in each aspect against each villain. So that’s 4 per villain, is 12. 5 heroes, so that’s 60. Then GG comes out, 2 scenarios. So that’s 40. Right there is 100 games. Plus I might take my favourite hero/Aspect combo against the core a second time, may try some 2 handed combos.
Then there’s the different villain difficulties, man there’s a whole bunch more games, villain 2 and 3 different modular sets.
Then there’s combining GG modular sets with the core and perhaps vice versa.
That’s all gotta be done in the first 2 months before Captain America comes out, and gotta start all over again, the Ms Marvel comes out 1 month later.
Im not worried about a lack of deck building depth from the core. By the time I have time to get deeper in the building the card pool will be there.
12 minutes ago, Ywingscum said:Well, I plan to play each hero in each aspect against each villain. So that’s 4 per villain, is 12. 5 heroes, so that’s 60. Then GG comes out, 2 scenarios. So that’s 40. Right there is 100 games. Plus I might take my favourite hero/Aspect combo against the core a second time, may try some 2 handed combos.
Then there’s the different villain difficulties, man there’s a whole bunch more games, villain 2 and 3 different modular sets.
Then there’s combining GG modular sets with the core and perhaps vice versa.
That’s all gotta be done in the first 2 months before Captain America comes out, and gotta start all over again, the Ms Marvel comes out 1 month later.
Im not worried about a lack of deck building depth from the core. By the time I have time to get deeper in the building the card pool will be there.
Same I think - I’m more interested in flexing scenarios through the modules than I am in making more than minor deck tweaks to my hero decks right now I think.
On 8/9/2019 at 4:53 PM, iJiminy said:Very true. Supertoe seemed to think you only get 2x copies of the non-uniques though, and I was just wondering if they thought that because of the suggested starter decks in the L2P book that’s been leaked.
Based on the team covenant videos, it’s 4 full sets of the neutral cards (ie 4x the uniques, 12x the non uniques)
On 8/10/2019 at 5:52 AM, Derrault said:Given that many/most tourneys I’ve seen listed for KeyForge are blind, you absolutely cannot drop hundreds of dollars on decks.
Marvel Champions looks pretty good to me now.
5 hours ago, Amanal said:Marvel Champions looks pretty good to me now.
Maybe I’m not seeing it, what’s so special about that deck?
15 hours ago, Derrault said:Based on the team covenant videos, it’s 4 full sets of the neutral cards (ie 4x the uniques, 12x the non uniques)
It’s a playset of every Aspect card, with that being 3x, 2x, or 1x depending on the specific card. You also get 4x each of the 11 basic cards.
EDIT: Just to be clear, you get 4x of every basic/neutral cards, not 4 playsets of every card.
Edited by iJiminy8 hours ago, Amanal said:Marvel Champions looks pretty good to me now.
Damnnnnnnnnn
What happens when FFG bans it?
also who bids that much for it? At first I just thought someone set an absurdly high price but like that's all bids.
3 hours ago, Supertoe said:What happens when FFG bans it?
Presumably it becomes a collector's item.
4 hours ago, Supertoe said:Damnnnnnnnnn
What happens when FFG bans it?
also who bids that much for it? At first I just thought someone set an absurdly high price but like that's all bids.
FFG doesn't ban decks in KeyForge. A deck can only participate in so many tourneys before it's forcibly retired.
10 hours ago, CitizenKeen said:FFG doesn't ban decks in KeyForge. A deck can only participate in so many tourneys before it's forcibly retired.
Isn't that fundamentally the same thing?
18 hours ago, Derrault said:Maybe I’m not seeing it, what’s so special about that deck?
Other than the bid it has attracted? I have no idea.
I like KeyForge as it is so much fun, but if you have people prepared to pay for their wins you can suck the life out of it so very fast.
2 hours ago, Amanal said:Other than the bid it has attracted? I have no idea.
I like KeyForge as it is so much fun, but if you have people prepared to pay for their wins you can suck the life out of it so very fast.
I’ve only really dabbled in Key Forged casually so far, as I play mini games competitively and it’s difficult to fit in tournaments for more games, but the only format that really appealed to me was the ‘everyone has to buy a new deck and adapt to it on the fly’ for this kind of reason... Key Forged works really well as a card game that you don’t have to drop huge amounts of money on to have a go at, so anything that goes against that core appeal doesn’t interest me...
15 hours ago, Amanal said:Other than the bid it has attracted? I have no idea.
I like KeyForge as it is so much fun, but if you have people prepared to pay for their wins you can suck the life out of it so very fast.
I figured it out, if you get both the nature’s calls, both pixies, the witch, and Chota hazri, you can forge 3 Keys in a single turn, all things being equal.
Which, could happen, sure, but if it does with any regularity the deck will gain enough power levels to no longer see play.