I've been doing a ton more testing lately and while my deck can easily support 3 copies of CtM, I've gradually cut the card from 3 copies down to 2 and recently removed it entirely.

What I've been encountering is that the majority of the decks I have faced, that have a character I want to Cloud, have ample attachement hate to make sure that their key characters are protected. Also, as I have primarily been playing more aggressive decks, Cloud is often clogging my hand instead of having a more impactful card. If I'm not planning on getting to a late game it seems like a waste.

Thoughts?

Its not for every deck, but some can make good use of it. Like you, Im still not sure if its worth taking (when its worth taking it) 3 copies of it.

The fact that cards like Tadaka and Uji are in the environment and the massive effect they can have on the game will mean that Clouds is always worth taking.

2 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

The fact that cards like Tadaka and Uji are in the environment and the massive effect they can have on the game will mean that Clouds is always worth taking.

Sure.....

However, both of those decks typical run Dragon splash with 3 let go and some number of Miya Mystic to protect Tadaka and Uji.

While doing some testing on Jigoku I ran into several games where I CtM, they remove it, I CtM again they remove it....

So the end result is I'm just down 1+ fate any time those exchanges happen.

To make CtM effective you also have the hidden cost of having to run other attachments worth destroying or have some sort of event cancel, not to mention enough shugenja to play CtM in the first place. The deck real estate when including CtM is more than just the 3 copies of CtM. This can ultimately impact your deck in a much greater way than it appears to on the surface.

Now if you're playing one of the decks that has Uji or Tadaka or some other beast that you plan on building around for the long game, you likely have CtM yourself to make sure that you turn off their beast as well as protect yours.

The general thought is is "if you CAN play CtM, you should" but I'm starting to believe this is not correct. Every clan can play CtM, but, some will struggle to include all the extra support that goes along with it, and I think that probably worse to force CtM into your deck than just skip it altogether. Not 100% Sure here but this is the way I am leaning.

I am not using it with Hisu Mori for example. So aggressive deck, and usually win or lose around 3 turn (or less). That's mean usually Cloud the Mind does not pay off. I will try it when I will make a deck more focus on the long run.

Yeah I ended up cutting it and a lot of my shugenja. Posted my deck in the Unicorn FB group of you care to take a gander

5 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Yeah I ended up cutting it and a lot of my shugenja. Posted my deck in the Unicorn FB group of you care to take a gander

I will check!

I have found it to be useful in combination with Uona

On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 11:44 AM, Tonbo Karasu said:

I have found it to be useful in combination with Uona

Of course. There is a much more natural fit in Phoenix decks in general and even moreso if you are already running cards that gain additional value from CtM.

The issue at hand is if CtM is really worth the inclusion of the 8+ shugenja in a deck that isn't naturally running those shugenja to begin with. Sure there are some clans that have cards in key slots that just happen to be shugenja. Unicorn for example (and the deck I am personally working through this dilemma with at the moment) has 6 shugenja that are almost auto includes in your basic Unicorn decks. So initially I added a few more shugenja to the lists I was testing, to make sure I could reliably support 3 copies of CtM. As I went though months of testing with the deck, I ended up cutting down to the bare minimum of shugenja in the deck along with removing CtM entirely as it was disrupting the consistency of my dynasty deck and forcing me away from the aggressive style of play I ultimately wanted to get to. On top of that, CtM had relatively few games in which it actually did something. Either my opponent didn't have a character worth clouding, or they had sufficient attachment removal to counter CtM. It felt like a waste of a play more often than not.

I find Cloud the Mind is worth it as long as I am packing an attachment or two that I want to keep.

If I am playing Dragon? Definitely packing Cloud the Mind. Crab? Definitely. Phoenix? Not so much, post Embrace the Void showing up on the RL, but it does not cost me much deck space. If I am playing a shugenja-heavy Lion, then yes. Crane and Scorpion, I can usually skip it. And Unicorn comes down to the deck, again. Pure Military Hisu Mori Toride blitz, don't have room, but a more midrangey Shiro Shinjo deck that makes use of Shahai and Daiyu, I would.

This way, they have more targets for their Attachment removal, which keeps my Spyglasses, Reprieves, Mirumoto Daisho, and the like alive longer.