Lars said:

Eh, i was miscounting/ calculating the amount of power Robert could claim. Essentiall i was about to say, he can claim enough power to win the game. Of course Robert is just the worst case, you can easily do that with any haf decent Bara renown charachter. Basically all you need is a card with renown & vigilant (or some other way to stand) and den of the wolves + influence resources. All of the mentioned cards are already in a Bara rush deck (at least i know a lot of successful decks which look like this) and so den of the wolf can make things just to easy. You could also think of a situation like Asha (5kE) and hooked trident doing 6 challenges.

Maybe it doesn´t make sense to create special examples, some playing will probably better show what i´m referring to at the moment.

Just a little breakdown, about what the card can/could do and totally ignoring the really strong lose all immunity effect.

1. PLOT: A "plots within plots" for every house for 2 gold and 3 influence. Valar can be followed by empty the vaults/ gathering storm etc.

2. DRAW: Usually two additional cards (for every player), with summer agenda three additional cards, with defenders up to 5 additional cards.

3. CHALLENGE: 3 possible unopposed challenges + claim + renown + maybe other effects like battle of blackwater bay twice etc. Of course every player get´s the chance to initiate additional challenges, but usually you would trigger the effect, when your board position is overwhelming- say you are outnumbering your opponents charachters.

4. DOMINANCE: Win dominance twice, use special dominance efects like Iron throne (ITE) twice - which ends up in a 6 total power swing.

5. I´m not sure, how it would work with the epic phases?!

Now add the lose all immunity effect. Am i really the only player who thinks that this card is way overpowered and could end up to be a huge NPE?

I'm not sure it does anything new.

Old Ben said:

can do this now with a save on bran.

Old Ben said:

i'm not crying about everyone drawing extra cards, if my opponet gets the same amount of cards as me, do i get an advantage?

Old Ben said:

There used to be a plot that did the same thing. If you prepared for it you were ok.

Old Ben said:

hello Martell Iron Throne/Devious/Injourous

Old Ben said:

Old Ben said:

I don;t think its the repeat the phase part that might make it an NPE, but the loss of the immunity (and i think an easy fix would be to make it deathbound)

Just going to echo JJ's thoughts, a very very well designed card with a multitude of uses. That said

I'm of the opinion that anyone calling this card an NPE or overpowered is just having a kneejerk reaction. All of the Nationial Champ cards have been powerful cards, that's true, and I don't think this one is any different. Having a good answer to things like ITE Euron and Arianne Martell is a fair thing to ask for, and the additional phase is always going to be benifitial to both (outside of Dominance, which claims a single power, and Challenges, which is already available in Epic events.

I'm really surprised that you don't see power on this card. I agree there were cards which enabled you one additional challenge but only one choosen type not whole phase. It will be banned after few tournaments and you will cry to do that. So far every build will start from this card in 2-3 copies. Enjoy !

Oh, don't take me the wrong way, I see the power in this card, thats for sure. To me it's a little more powerful than previous entries in the National Champ cards (Ghost of Highheart, Bandit Lord, and First Snow). I just am putting my opinion out there to be a counter to the coming tide of calls for the ban hammer or some sort of errata, becuase that seems to be all these message boards and FFG ever seem capable of. Not a slam against anybody, just an honest opinion.

Also, I laugh at the thought of me calling for a Banhammer. Trust me, my friend, that will never happen.

Lars said:

I´m pretty sure it´s nothing new, but it does a lot of variable things and adds in some cases more combo potential. Let´s assume you are playing a Lannister deck and you wanted to move through your plots very fast- for whatever reason, i guess we both know that it can be benefical. You had to run Plots within plots and since the release of the CS you could also add Bran. Now you get one more card, which just makes the whole thing to easy in my opinion. Also rotating through your plots was something preserved for Lanni till date- with Bran being one exception, but i guess it´s easy to deal with a 1 strength charachter. With Bran and Den of the wolves, every house has a good chance to do the same trick.

The example about the challenge phase is possible the "fairest way" of using the triggered effect, but nethertheless drawing two additional cards could be more beneficial for one player than the other e.g. "i have 2 hand cards you have 5 in hand and i desperately need to deploy 3 charachters this turn, or draw that special card that helps me to deal with the whole situation".

The plot which allowed to repeat the challenge phase was "to the the spear" and it was house martell only. Also it had 3/0/1 stats, if you trigger den of the wolves you could have any plot out which makes a huge difference. Examples: the fury plots, gathering storm, some plot like battle of blackwater bay... imgagine battle of the blackwater bay is out and King Robb is as well on table. *ouch*

I somehow see den of the wolves as a 3x Lord Eddard´s command or 3x forgotten path- even if you can´t choose the challenge type.

And i agree about immunity being another huge problem. It´s not like you are using the card to shut down your opponents Arianne or Euron. No you are using it to remove the immunity on your very own cards. It doesn´t make sense at first glance, but than you realize that it can be a good thing to throw you own events on that ever standing Arianne. Even more likely is taht you include the card in your deck to stand the Queen of thorms over and over again, i guess finally there was a reason to print the "Immune to your triggered effects" limitation on the card.

I don´t want to be too negative, like i wrote before i like the idea, but i´m really hoping for an errata clarification ASAP.

About the other champion cards:

Bandit lord: acceptabl stats, location control is helpful.

Flea bottom: a good resource card, but possibly the weakest of all champion cards.

First snow: Very strong charachter control plot, i´m really missing.

Ghost of highheart: good resource control. With a helpful crest and the immune to being discard is good.

None of the cards can reach the versatitiliy of den of the wolf in my opinion.

berto said:

first, for someone who doesn't play the game anymore why do you care. Second i don't cry about banning cards, you must have me confused with yourself.

Third, check the cards before you post. http://www.tzumainn.com/agot/cards/card.php?card_id=1560 a plot (hardest to control in the game) gave an extra challenge phase. So like I said the card doesn't do anything new. It just adds the flexibility to be able to pull of things that have been possible before.

Fourth, not every deck will start with multiple copies of this card as you have to have a combo in mind with it before you start building a deck. Not every one builds a deck trying to pull off combos, but general themes. Combos usually come later in deck building and not all will want this card.

Old Ben, I agree with you that it could be exploited (but as that ever made them errata cards, look at ITE Iron Throne, even without Den it was an exploitable card). And I do think that bara will have a lot of fun with the repeat phase effect (LCG Saan, with a bunch of rewnown and standing could be devious with a second standing phase). I do see the possibilities, but i think I am tempered by the fact that all the possibilities really need a lot of set up time (have to surivie resets, etc) and if a player can get a multi part combo set up, then why don't they derserve the benifit of winning the game with the combo?

Well, i always felt like winning combos aren´t so much part of this card game and that it is a good thing. Building up winning combos seems to be a little more or less the attraction of other card games like MTG. Don´t ge me wrong, i like good combos and synergie in the cards, but these winning combos just feel like you aren´t playing the game of thrones, but maybe something else.

Just by the name "Den of the wolf" isn´t a important location in Westeros like the red keep etc. but seems to gather more publicity than it deserves from a storywise point of view. I wonder that FFG is willing to go into a power-combo way with the new cards, especially when you compare it to the solid and original flavour of the Core set cards, where you hardly find a comparable card with such a deep impact on gameplay.

And yes, the den of the wolf needs some surrounding cards, like resources, like cards that benefit from the effect. But i do think that it doesn´t need much deck building, the card comes in handy for every deck and not just special combo decks.

It's a location. It's got a whole bunch of interesting possibilities, but it still remains to be seen how often you're going to get to pull them off. The way I see it:

1) In LCG format: Amazingly strong because of the lack of cancels and location control. However, 3 influence can be a steep cost and draw sucks, so getting it out of the deck when it will do you the most good is not necessarily a given. This will be the most interesting format to see what the "baseline" is going to be (as far as I know, no one making these proclamations have actually played with the card yet!) and how long it takes for an acceptable balance to be struck (new cards every "month").

2) In "Standard" format: Far easier to pull off (cost, draw, search, etc.), but far more ways to control it (cancels, location destruction, etc.). There may be a balance (particularly with your Den making it easier for me to stand my QoT!) already. This "Den of the Wolf/Devious Machinations/Iron Throne when I'm winning Dominance" combo strikes me as expensive with a lot of moving parts. Very Shagga.

3) In Legacy format: The one copy of each card leaves me thinking that any combo is harder to build a deck around.

ktom said:

If you are looking for that one special combo i agree. But the pure possibility of running 7 (or 8 with kings of deceit) good search and draw plots makes it very easy to pull off combos. At least my last Martell - DOTN legacy deck found the needed cards very quickly.

*Gives Berto the hug he so desperately needs*

As for the card, by no means do I think it is broken. I'll reserve any final judgement until people actually begin playing with it, but I think it looks like an exciting card for the game. There are so many different ways to use it, and I like that.

So i finally played my first game with den of the wolf. I played a Stark deck with military battle plots and the support you would expect and the usual killing engine of house Stark. I received my chapter pack this evening, so i haven´t had that much time to put some more thought in it and just removed one charachter card for the den.

When i added the card my intention was to help Arya and icy catapult to deal with immunity charachters. I also thought that Eddard (5KE) and Rout of the riverlords, as well as an additional challenge phase could be brutal.

I played against a Baratheon deck and was lucky enough to have den of the thieves out in round 2 and kill Sally San the round before. ;-) The first situation which seemed to be interesting was when my opponent played the gathering storm and i exchanged my plot for bounty of the realm. It would have been very helpful to repeat the plot phase, because i would have collected the 5 cards from the plot and could play some high gold plot to deploy what i drew and my opponent would have lost his high gold/high claim plot. But i decided to wait patiently, even if it was a good opportunity.

It proofed that i was right, the next round Valar hit the shelves. It was now the beginning of the 6th round and since i played against Baratheon i expected to see a good god´s own kiss as the following plot. So i dedided to play a low income. Of course Good god´s own kiss was revealed that round, i decided to discard den of the wolf now. My opponent had to reveal some other plot without having the chance to restore 4-5 good charachters ( he had enough resources but no hand cards at this moment) and i revealed a high income plot.

Summary: Used den of the wolf as a combination of plots within plots and forgotten plans. I would have lost the game if all the good Bartheon charachters would have been revived by Good god´s own kiss.

Hehehehe I will use it in my every legacy deck...till banned. I bet it will happen in days rather than months...assuming that we will have any tournaments if not it will happen before or after gencon... It's funny reading all that stuff ... you are happy that you got such cookie cutter and you didn;t notice that much worse cards: Pyromancer Cache were banned. In standard it can survive a little bit longer untili we get some influence providing locations... so far welcome yugioh who get first this card win a game...enjoy...

berto said:

berto said:

False! And i never even wrote that it´s that way. I had a major impact on the result of the game because of it´s versatility, but a simple forgotten plans would have also done the job.

So i didn´t win because i got the card first, it was 3 rounds on the table essentially doing nothing. But i did win because i waited for one situation where i could use the card for it´s maximun gain - in this case as a counter to good god´s own kiss. My major critic point about the card was and is that it is to versatile.

Sorry Berto, but if you want to follow that yugioh discussion you´ll have to proof why essentially this special card won you the game, before your opponent was able to get it on the table and trigger it before you could. So far i haven´t seen much constructive contribution from your side. That Yugioh gossip won´t help much.

Ok let's explain what I meant... In competitive play if you have one card which is much stronger thant the avarage... the player who get it first with comparable level of playing have much mor chances to win than the other one.... You probably agree that this card is much better than the others.... so during play if you get this card and your opp has bad luck and did not you have won in most cases... it ramians me time when there was one card in ygo which was limited to one and players cheats to get it first... Now I think it's clear what I meant... I didn't say that you must use it immediately... as we play at the certain level I though it's clear.

ktom said:

Shagga? I just described was very Jamie. I would agree that it's not something that would be pulled off every game, but in a Martell deck, with devious mach and the iron throne, when the three come together it's a quick win. (Devious Mach is required to make the opponents think that 6 power would not allow him to win the game... and focus on the currently winning player).

I've seen devious mach take the game before. But then I do notice a very different playstile in multiplayer from meta to meta, but in the boston meta... someone puts that card down, I'll be sure to run them to the ground.

Awwww man...I feel the love already.

bloodycelt said:

I dunno.... seems Shagga to me....

Hi Sam. For what it's worth, I like the card.

icyewolf said:

Feel the love, my brother, This card is highly useful. The fact it is neutral means it won't be seen in a House Agenda deck, so Kings of Deceit won't be wonking it overtime. In Legacy there is much more location control, so DotW isn't as big a threat there. In LCG it will see play, and will impact games (heck, why shoudn't the Winner's Card impact games -- I played First SNow of WInter as my favorite reset).

Should this card get banned? Heck no. s this card as unbalanced as Jaqen? Heck no! Should they un-ban Pyromancer's Cache? Heck yes! And when this game gets more cancels and location control back in the LCG, things will make more sense.

The LCG is evolving. That is the purpose of the format. What is king now may not be king in a month or two. Den of the Wolf should not receive the ban hammer, and I doubt it will. I also do not see it being errata'd either. This is a solid card, that fits the high-powered slot that this game is known for. IS it "talentless," as Melnick used to put it? Perhaps, but there is true talent in using it correctly. And seeing it across the table from you will force you to make the right decisions. I am looking forward to playing the game with this card in the environment.