2 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Toturi becoming "the Black Lion"? I really don't know that is remotely necessary. He is currently the legitimate Emerald Champion.

A bigger problem is that he is already married to Kaede so even if he gets kicked out he can go to the Phoenix and be sad about it there.

20 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Instead of an all out Scorpion Coup, it's Sotorii leveraging a perceived coup and getting the rest of the "bad guys" to go along with it.

So far so good, Sotorii couldn't leverage a minor but obvious insult against his very own brother. Him suddenly finding the determination to go against an Imperial Decree would be a kind of a cop-out in my opinion. He should be up to a bigger character development, with Daisetsu becoming the Emperor being only the beginning of it. Kinda like Sotorii gets dropped, he goes Renegades Lyfe, gets himself together and learns a valuable life lesson ("I forge my anger into a mighty sword" and all that), gathers his group of allies along the way, then returns more powerful than ever to challenge his brother for the throne or something.

3 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Schmoozie, I think you are putting WAY too much stock into everything being 100% exactly like the old story without any meaningful alterations and you haven't even accounted for the most basic things that are already quite different.

Kachiko seems to be considerably older than Sotorii, even if she is ridiculously young to hold the station she is holding, and she isn't some sexpot whose title is "seductress" and whose every artwork shows her clothes falling off. Moreover, they have really underlined Sotorii's general youth and immaturity. By not being THE sex symbol of the whole setting, the entire impact of Sotorii demanding her is completely lost. The dynamic wouldn't make the least bit of sense now. Just because there was an Empress Kachiko in the old version in no way guarantees or even demands that the new version be exactly the same.

Toturi becoming "the Black Lion"? I really don't know that is remotely necessary. He is currently the legitimate Emerald Champion. And his personality seems to better reflect what we can glean as the character of Hantei Kami rather than Akodo Kami. It isn't difficult to imagine him being a rallying point for the Imperials should the succession go wrong-- whether that be because the Scorpions took over or because a prince went off the rails, killed the former Emperor and tried to claim the throne. And given that their members are scattered across the empire, I would expect any independent Imperial Family force to be heavily reliant on ronin and mercenary forces if the other clans aren't just going to lend them their forces. So that angle is already well set up without it being exactly necessary for things to be exactly as they were before.

And certainly things that were ultimately detrimental to the game and had to be sloppily undone later, such as exiling the entire Scorpion Clan, that isn't likely to happen. While undoubtedly certain things in the setting are moving in a similar direction as the old story, I really suspect that the writers will intentionally avoid doing anything that is nearly as identical to the previous version as the things you suggested there. If just on the basic principle of the thing, that it would be silly to have a whole new story if we are all just going to tour through every one of the same ill-considered plot beats that happened the first time around.

Well I never mentioned anything about Kachiko being the next Empress. I do think that she and Shoju do have a difference of opinion on the role Scorpion should be playing in the bigger picture. He seems to think that they have grown too bold and exposed and that a retreat from the limelight may be advisable, where as Kachiko seems more inclined to keep the pressure on their enemies and grab for each additional avenue of power they can reach. But Shoju and the Scorpion being the top dog power at the moment and the appointment of Sjouju as his brothers regent makes them an obvious casualty if Sotorii claims the throne counter to his father's intended decree.

As for Toturi, the fact of the matter is that everything we've been presented with up to this point leaves one real choice for the Sotorii/Daisetsu story and that's the older brother taking the throne despite his more "fit" younger brother being a better choice. That means we need to see the Emperor's final decree suppressed in some way and as the Emerald Champion who wrote it that means Toturi has to be in some way ousted from his position of power. A dead character is a wasted character so better he ends up declared Ronin and allied with the exiled prince.

And that presents us the other problem there needs to be a reason for the player base to rally behind both princes and that means we need a real reason to choose one over the other and everything we've seen so far leaves us no reason to suppport Satorii over Daisetsu. There needs to be a reason to not see Daisetsu as a legitimate choice and that likely means him being compromised in some way.

26 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

So far so good, Sotorii couldn't leverage a minor but obvious insult against his very own brother. Him suddenly finding the determination to go against an Imperial Decree would be a kind of a cop-out in my opinion. He should be up to a bigger character development, with Daisetsu becoming the Emperor being only the beginning of it. Kinda like Sotorii gets dropped, he goes Renegades Lyfe, gets himself together and learns a valuable life lesson ("I forge my anger into a mighty sword" and all that), gathers his group of allies along the way, then returns more powerful than ever to challenge his brother for the throne or something.

I think it would be the other major players in the clans seizing the opportunity to use Sotorii as their unwitting puppet...............at least until he gives in to Fu-Leng, er, um, I mean his inner voice and realizes he's being used by the other clan leaders, and doesn't like it, so he decides to let loose his inner Fu-Leng. Although, I'm not opposed to your idea, I just don't expect that's going to happen. Either way I think we get a solid story out of it. I'd just like that to start happening now-ish.

Oooo, is it Wild Speculation Time?!

Time for the latest episode of Gunichi's Wingnut Concepts!
NoneoftheseareborneoutbytheslightestbitoftextualevidencejuststuffI'verolledaroundinmybrain.

I don't know that we'll necessarily see Toturi as the "Black Lion." But we might see Sotorii get some of Toturi's old ronin story beats... certainly, unlike Toturi in the old lore, he has actual lessons to learn through a bit of rough living. In the old Lore, it was basically, "Toturi's awesome but stuff happened, so he's out here being awesome with his awesome ronin buddies who all agree that he's still pretty awesome." Sotorii, as someone who NOBODY thinks is awesome, might well benefit from some time in the wilderness and perhaps a little cryptic Dragon guidance. Bonus points if he still goes villain, but now with some bona fides.

I think Daisetsu- set up as mildly sinister but clearly a better choice- will get some egg on his face. Either by genuine screwups (his Meishodo girlfriend blowing something up, perhaps) or by the manipulations of a certain ambitious Scorpion. Something to dim his star.

Shoju and Toturi are both capable, skilled, principled opponents to chaos. So they have to go, in some fashion. Other principled opponents to chaos (Tsukune, Kosori, Shono, arguably Yojiro, arguably Hotaru, and so forth) are all presented as being young, inexperienced, and up against circumstances that will keep them from exercising too direct an influence until things go pear-shaped, so they might not be due for a direct smackdown of quite the same sort.

The leaders and functionaries we've seen being less than ideal (Miya Daimyo, Kakita Yoshi, just about every Otomo so far, members of the Phoenix Elemental Council) will continue to stymie any efforts to improve matters.

The characters actually engaged in sinister actions (Tadaka, Yori, Yoritomo, Taka, Kachiko, etc) will likely be able to fly under the radar as their plots are eclipsed by wider chaos until it's too late.

Also note, we're all so hung up on how Sotorii is fated to be Fu Leng's vessel... but what if he isn't? What if it's Daisetsu? What if Sotorii, awful as he is up to this point, has been gaslit explicitly to get him out of the way?

5 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

What if it's Daisetsu?

Let's say I have a nudge that Daisetsu becoming Totally-Not-Daigotsu can only happen through the dead bodies of the writing staff .

5 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Let's say I have a nudge that Daisetsu becoming Totally-Not-Daigotsu can only happen through the dead bodies of the writing staff .

Being the possessed vessel of Fu Leng is a far cry from what Daigotsu became.

8 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Being the possessed vessel of Fu Leng is a far cry from what Daigotsu became.

Wasn't Daigotsu technically possessed by Fu Leng via the oni he shared his body with? I mean, Daisetsu with a Fu Leng possession would be essentially Daigotsu in all but the most literal sense. At best you can turn Daisetsu into Discount!Daigotsu by playing the possession angle straight, but you ain't avoiding the comparison either way. Daisetsu + Taint = Daigotsu. And that will not happen if a certain message in my inbox is any measure.

26 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

At best you can turn Daisetsu into Discount!Daigotsu

By having him around at all, that's already happened.

16 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

By having him around at all, that's already happened.

I'm not saying that I disagree, but apparently, this is not what the writers wanted.

2 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

I'm not saying that I disagree, but apparently, this is not what the writers wanted.

If they did not want us old Spider fans rooting for the return of Daigotsu, they should not have paired him with Shahai.

36 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

If they did not want us old Spider fans rooting for the return of Daigotsu, they should not have paired him with Shahai.

To be honest here, the only thing this Shahai and that Shahai have in common is their name.

11 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

To be honest here, the only thing this Shahai and that Shahai have in common is their name.

The ship-baiting is still ship-baiting.

Also, Iuchi Shahai is the youngest daughter of Iuchi Daiyu, which is consistent across the two timelines. This Shahai is also a shugenja in the Iuchi tradition. Admittedly, this one is not spoiled (like the first one), and not plagued by terrible nightmares (that we know of), and is unlikely to find the skull of Yogo Junzo and follow his voice into the powers of maho.

Personally, I am getting much more of a "Creator of Shourido, Founder of the Spider Clan as a non-Tainted but still dark" feeling from Daisetsu. The problem with him right now is that he, simply, appeals way too much to the Western sensibilities of morality for the game. He needs to become as unfit for the throne of the Emerald Empire as his brother, or else we are going to just have... well... a boring story absence of nuance.

Which would hardly be the first time in the history of L5R, but there's always hope.

1 hour ago, sndwurks said:

He needs to become as unfit for the throne of the Emerald Empire as his brother, or else we are going to just have... well... a boring story absence of nuance.

As I said before, I would rather see Sotorii man-up and give us a "different kind of fit". I'm really growing tired of this "everything needs to be bad and characters must be bad and incompetent and angsty" kind of deal.

Just now, AtoMaki said:

As I said before, I would rather see Sotorii man-up and give us a "different kind of fit". I'm really growing tired of this "everything needs to be bad and characters must be bad and incompetent and angsty" kind of deal.

Sorry, but I got my fill of "two good heirs to the Throne, which should we CHOOOOOOOSE?!" melodrama during the 20 Festivals. It was boring then. It will be boring now.

2 hours ago, sndwurks said:

Sorry, but I got my fill of "two good heirs to the Throne, which should we CHOOOOOOOSE?!" melodrama during the 20 Festivals. It was boring then. It will be boring now.

To be fair, that might have something to do with that particular storyline getting rushed to conclusion to make way for Onyx Edition (and the death of O5R).

Why is everyone talking about Sotorii murdering the Emperor as if it's certain? Sure it would destabilize the Empire, but it is already pretty destabilized by THE EMPEROR FRIGGING ABDICATING AND CHANGING HIS HEIR.

Or, at least, try to find a different potential murderer.

9 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Daisetsu + Taint = Daigotsu. And that will not happen if a certain message in my inbox is any measure.

Okay, I have to speak up here, because that is not what I said, and I could get in trouble with FFG if they think it is -- like, "I have violated my NDA and am no longer welcome to write for them" levels of trouble.

I asked you to stop perpetually calling Daisetsu "not!Daigotsu," because I feel it's kind of insulting to the writers who have put effort into telling this story -- it implies that what's being told here is only a flimsy paint job over the old story, and that the alterations in this character's life story aren't meaningful. I do not know what the long-term plan is for Daisetsu, and whether it involves the Taint or not. I just know that this character's mother was not kidnapped by Bloodspeakers before his birth, his soul was not bound to that of an oni, and he was raised in the Imperial Palace rather than Jigoku. And I think that even if those changes weren't substantial, it's still courteous to at least call the character by his name, rather than treating him as the old character in a cheap paper mask.

Please do not read anything more into that. I did not give you Secret Special Behind-the-Scenes Knowledge; I only asked you to use the character's name.

I've held from the beginning that we will see some things familiar to the old stories, but, interpreted a different way.

Right now, I think we are seeing slightly different interpretation of the "last akodo / last hantei" prophecy.

Maybe the transition to Daisetsu just goes off without any initial dust up. But this of course enrages Sotorii and he falls under Fu-Leng's influence. But this is not the "fall" that the prophecy is speaking of.

By breaking the traditional chain of succession and Daisetsu trying to shake things up by doing things differently (with Toturi guiding him) they have effectively "fallen" by adopting new things and straying from tradition, even though they thought it was the right thing to do.

As bat-guano crazy as Rokugan can be, it has their traditions and ways of doing things for a reason. Compared to a more modern world view, some of the things that happen in Rokugan seem ridiculous, but, now that there is a whole bunch of change going on, everything is out of whack and this is giving Fu Leng the opportunity to return.

As messed up as the Steel Chrysanthemum was, you know what didn't happen on his watch............Fu Leng didn't come back. Rokugan is not a nice place and it could be this shift towards acceptance of outside influences and breaking tradition that is tearing it apart.

I think this will end with Daisetsu trying to redeem his brother and forge a new Rokugan that embraces Fu Leng. Let's not forget that Fu Leng is still one of the original Kami. He was kind of a jerkface before he fell through Rokugan, but, he wasn't evil, at least not from any of the old lore that I remember. It the time spent being tormented in Jigoku that twisted and corrupted Fu Leng.

Embracing Fu Leng as an ally, returning him to the same stature as he Kami bothers and sisters would tie in nicely to Daisetsu, redeeming his brother, maybe by taking on mantle of Fu Leng and building the Spider Clan as the first in the Daigotsu line, while restoring the Hantei line as well. This way you have a united Rokugan to take on any future outside threats.

It probably won't happen that way, but, that's what I would like to see

Also... if Sotorii is divested of his inheritance, then he can't be the Last Hantei, can he?

Not that we've actually heard that prophecy in any form so far. But something to chew on.

Whoa...........hold on.

How dare you try to interject logic into my "untrained monkey" style of speculating.

I'm throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks. Rational thought..............Bah!

I could see more of a parallel and opportunity for Daisetsu and Shahai to go on an adventure in the burning sands, and have an iuchiban-esquire adventure in this Rokugan.

2 hours ago, Kinzen said:

Please do not read anything more into that. I did not give you Secret Special Behind-the-Scenes Knowledge; I only asked you to use the character's name.

Well, uh, this is awkward... I know that you have sent a message about it not long ago but no, I was not referring to that .

Geeheeez I totally forgot your PM when I wrote that post . Sorry!

On 2/25/2019 at 11:58 PM, TheHobgoblyn said:

That being said-- Toturi is still Lion Clan champion and he "owns" this whole "let's make Daisetsu the next Emperor" decree more than anyone but the Emperor himself does. As such, I don't think it is very likely that he is going to go against it, and if the Clan Champion doesn't go against it-- then his clan certainly isn't likely to go against it....

Agreed. You're only going to have the Lion coming in on the other side if the current tensions in the Lion result in Akodo Toturi losing his position as Lion champion.

Of course, if the position of the other party is "the edict is a fake" then given it's his handwriting on it, if they become a meaningful political force then from their perspective he has to be a traitor and for the chop.

On 2/26/2019 at 3:03 PM, Schmoozies said:

The most important thing is the death must come before the Decree is proclaimed, which means we should see it at the start of the Inheritance cycle otherwise our timeline is frozen at the end of Tiger Stalks and Children of the Empire since the decree was supposed to be made shortly after those stories.

This. If you're going to have any sort of serious dynastic tension, it can only really happen if the (previous) Emperor isn't around to say "no, Toturi-san wrote exactly what I told him to write."

11 hours ago, Kinzen said:

I asked you to stop perpetually calling Daisetsu "not!Daigotsu," because I feel it's kind of insulting to the writers who have put effort into telling this story -- it implies that what's being told here is only a flimsy paint job over the old story, and that the alterations in this character's life story aren't meaningful.

Which is a fair observation. We really don't know what's going to happen, and enough changes are already meaningful (Toturi being Emerald Champion, for example, and Hotaru already being Crane Champion) that assuming any parity is asking to have the rug pulled out.

Oh - and I really like Daisetsu* as a character. Thank you.

* Which doesn't mean he'd be an especially good emperor, of course. A big question - in addition to how Sotorii is going to react to the Edict (hint: throwing a massive strop is likely) - is how Daisetsu is going to react. With he and Shahai being increasingly shown as 'in wuv' in full teenage crush mode, I can see him reacting badly to the edict himself the moment someone gets as far as " and this is Doji Stuckupcourtieryouvenevermetbefore, your new bride ."

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Which is a fair observation. We really don't know what's going to happen, and enough changes are already meaningful (Toturi being Emerald Champion, for example, and Hotaru already being Crane Champion) that assuming any parity is asking to have the rug pulled out.

1

I disagree here in a way that while the circumstances are indeed very different, Daisetsu's character does feel like Daigotsu in a different timeline, complete with the whole "No guys, I'm okay, don't summon Iuchiban... FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!" deal.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

* Which doesn't mean he'd be an especially good emperor, of course. A big question - in addition to how Sotorii is going to react to the Edict (hint: throwing a massive strop is likely) - is how Daisetsu is going to react. With he and Shahai being increasingly shown as 'in wuv' in full teenage crush mode, I can see him reacting badly to the edict himself the moment someone gets as far as " and this is Doji Stuckupcourtieryouvenevermetbefore, your new bride ."

1

As far as the old canon goes, the Emperor could choose their wife and it was a major plot point back there several times (Sapphire Throne, Toturi Naseru). However, the Crane never takes it well when it is not one of theirs, and I guess this will stand double now (or not, depending on where the Shahai / Shizue thing is going). So this is at least one possible breaking point between the Crane Clan and Daisetsu.