22 minutes ago, prauxim said:

What  would make a good training wheels list? I could proxy L'ulo, but thinking Bastian AAAA might require less br  ain power while I practice four finger techniques.

Snap + Composure and four i1 are great! And much of it plays the same way.

But there is an important difference wrt matchups between i3 and i1. And it might get you used to a very durable 5th ship when Lulo is actually extremely fragile!

Got my 4th RZ2 last night and flew v2.3 (L'ulo using a loaner rz1). It was fun, definitely going to invest heavily in 4+1 going forward.

Ran through the whole thread. Again, amazing job, it's a strategic gold mine.

• If the Four finger article was updated to consider rear arcs, what do you think the key differences would be?
  • It would seem there would be specific opens based on shooting out the rear, with and without a flyby first
• In general, do you have some rubric for how aggressive to be with L'ulo?
  • E.g. "cautious, but still shooting %75 of the time early game" vs "preserve as a closer, very cautious, even if it means significantly less shooting early game"
• Didn't see much discussion +1 choices other than L'ulo since the points change
  • Have you considered Jess + 4x Blue/Heroic/AO? Do you think she's strictly worse than Snap+Comp/4x Blue AO?
  • Is paying 8pts for 4x GSE over Blues high value or just a case of "what else to do with the pts?" (or "I just like green")

7 minutes ago, prauxim said:

If the Four finger article was updated to consider rear arcs, what do you think the key differences would be?

• It would seem there would be specific opens based on shooting out the rear, with and without a flyby first

Huh, that's a very nice question. Honestly, I don't know. Entirely avoiding a flyby is something I rarely do. I did it in the game against the B-wings and Y-wings, so I'd say it's an important tool against high HP heavy swarms that are now mostly rebels? But despite my recent championing of defined openings, I think that this is very hard to plan ahead. But I wonder if that is really true... I'm writing as I think here, but I guess you could at least set asteroids in a way that allows flexibility and clutch maneuvers, giving an extra die on approach if close enough, and then allows a good way of using the rear arc?

Another question is how early you want to telegraph. What I have not done once is to turn around arcs in the turn before shooting, and then get to use focus+boost in the round of combat. I am still afraid that this tells too much, but now thinking a bit more about it: what can they really do?

13 minutes ago, prauxim said:

In general, do you have some rubric for how aggressive to be with L'ulo?

• E.g. "cautious, but still shooting %75 of the time early game" vs "preserve as a closer, very cautious, even if it means significantly less shooting early game"

That strongly depends on the matchup, but I have largely two ways: either he starts with the generics and splits earlier. This is a safer version that also has him faster in the fight. Or he starts in the other corner and baits hard. This is much riskier in many cases, but if he really gets away and survives, he is out of the fight for longer and often available in the endgame.

So it is hard for me to clearly say which one is really more aggressive because one is more offensive and the other is more playing for position.

18 minutes ago, prauxim said:

Didn't see much discussion +1 choices other than L'ulo since the points change

• Have you considered Jess + 4x Blue/Heroic/AO? Do you think she's strictly worse than Snap+Comp/4x Blue AO?
• Is paying 8pts for 4x GSE over Blues high value or just a case of "what else to do with the pts?" (or "I just like green")

Two things:

Snap+Comp was always my go-to there (for 3 games so far...). I am not sure whether 4 heroics are better than Snap, it might be the case. But I love to boost around and would hate to lose the option. I don't think it's a very meaningful choice. However, Jess might be a bit better because her "target lock" is not range or target dependent.

And by now I really favor i3 for better matchups (see: "Two types of lists that are really hard matchups are swarms and heavy swarms. Having the same number or even more ships gives opponents a great counter against Optics - partially due to the last bullet point I mentioned. So against those, the gameplan changes from overwhelming firepower to arcdodging. That is much more likely and easier at i3 than at i1."). But if you go to i3, then Lulo is basically the only choice. Unless you want to go for 5 generics instead.

Thanks for the replys.

I'll do some more thinking about the "tail shot open" at some point, but for now I will focus on Frightened Flight and Block Joust as my main two options.

I will try Lulo some more but I'm really not sure about how I feel about Lone Wolf, I don't like the way it imposes on my maneuver choices. Also don't sure about L'ulo in general.

Fwiw, Bastian + 4x Green/AO fits.

I see what you're saying about swarms and the bid, but that ones tricky. Against lists that have a single low PS blocker I feel like I am going to miss the blues.

X-wing Vassal Tournament game 1, 17.2.19

4+1 v2.1
vs
XXXXY

This was an all around amazing game! Such a great player, and so much fun to play with! It took 11 turns full of excitement, so much happened every time. To give you an idea, this is the converted advantage over time. Ups and downs! I'm green by the way.

Opponent's determining action and my target priority: He has 4 beefy X-wings and an ionizing Y. That means I have to arcdodge like a madman and make sure to evade the ion turret.

Deployment : See image. The two large rocks NW and middle field were from me, plus the moustache to mess up that lane. He set his rocks into my corners and the small one to complete my triangle. I deployed in the SW corner. His Y set in the NW corner, the 4 X in the northeast end.

The gameplan for the first turns: Full flight opening, Flank with Lulo! If necessary, run from the first engagement and try to break his formation up.

How it went:

Turn 1: My 3 hards and boost. He showed that he's willing to go through the rocks and lined it up perfectly. That might have complicated his approach a bit too much.
Turn 2: He came past the rocks, the Y behind. My Lulo had the option to turn either way. Team 34 boosted to the NE, setting up that I will be able to dodge arcs or force a commitment. Also, I should be able to stay at a far range.
Turn 3: Lulo turned in and dodged all arcs except the Ywing. This was a calculated risk. Either the moves towards Lulo and messes up his next turns, or he doesn't and I get to arc dodge. The Generics were not in all his arcs, and could all shoot at the same guy. Success! I started off very well, but only got his Xwing down to 3 hull while my nr1 went down to 1 hull. That was not expected and made the coming turns harder.
Turn 4: I expected a 2hard because to me, my moves with team 34 was obvious - a 3bank, turn arc, let him chase. Hence my team 12 tried to sneak by below. But his 1bank took me by surprise and I had to abort the sneak. Maybe I could at least trade an A for an Xwing. I also didn't expect the rogue talon roll, but that was no problem for Lulo. In the end the expected thing happened and we traded ships.
Turn 5: Time to get out for team 34 and let them chase. Nr 2 went 5 straight as the Y could not block that with any reasonable move, and Lulo started to turn around. The 34 team got perfect distance: range 2 for their shot on the front X, range 3 to defend against the others. -3HP for him, -1 for me. That's ok.
Turn 6: We chatted a bit during the game and he told me he was usually going to do the conservative moves, so I initially expected him to follow team 34 - which I split up because of that. And obviously my Lulo would turn in with a hard 2 and chase them himself. But what if he was going with the risky move instead? If he was going to turn in, it would be a blocked Lulo against 2 X's and a Y-ion - a horrible scenario! Thinking back to game 3 of this very thread, back in December: Don't make a risky move if it will cost you the game! So Lulo, too, turned away, and that was exactly right. It also draws from another lesson: don't force a shot if it means you'll get horrible engagements down the line. GSE2 traded 1s for 1hull on BSE1, the rest had no shots. That was very much ok for me, I expected worse. Then again, he tried to shoot Lulo so it wasn't as many shots as it could have been.
Turn 7: He was now a bit in a hard spot as the gamble hadn't paid off. But, my ships were also in a bad position and I had to restart an attack run. Lulo couldn't turn left as that would land me in front of his list, so right it was. But that meant GSE3 also had to turn away. I was very confident that a 2hard+boost fits and a fail didn't matter, but it was a bit closer than I wanted. Meanwhile, GSE2 was a bit out of the loop and fighting for his life.
Turn 8: It was too much for GSE2, he blew up. The game was now against me, but I had an isolated Y-wing against my three ships. Maybe I could flip it again? At least I got the Y to half points, so surely he would blow up the next turn. GSE4 was not in the turret arc of the Y, so that was lucky.
Turn 9: Critical mistakes! First, Lulo boosted in front of the rock. I thought I'd bump, but I could have taken a proper look to see that no, that is not close enough. It already was R1, so why boost and risk it? The GSE next to him could have told me not to. Second, Lulo boosted into arc of his front Xwing, which was very stupid. And third, the GSE4 had to do fancy moves, which meant no focus- and he landed in the arc of the X in the back! Of course he would take 2damage with 5 green dice. And all that in turn meant that the Y survived. I paid for these mistakes with 2 shields on Lulo and 1s1h on GSE4. That was not necessary at all.
Turn 10: Several things happened here. First, he turned arc on the Y and didn't take a mod - which was understandable. Second, his front X banked which is exactly what I hoped for. Third, I surprised him by bringing around GSE4 with a 3hard. Fourth, I went aggressively forward with Lulo over the rock, hoping to dodge one attack and kill the other ship before he could shoot. My dream scenario was to trade two of his low health ships for Lulo. I didn't dare to dream what happened: remove two ships and don't take damage!
Turn 11: With the 3vs4 turned into a surprising 3vs2, it was time to clean up. I saw the t-troll coming, but expected it from both. Anyway, I estimated that I could fly past and dodge one arc with the 1hull GSE, giving me a great chance against a single shot. Anyway - no mods against all-but-guaranteed 2hit results meant that he would lose another X-wing and he conceded.

Conclusion/Lessons:

What a great game! I'm still not immune to stupid decisions, but at least I apparently learn a little bit from past games, which is a very nice feeling. I'll likely go back to this game for lessons at a later point.

Setup:

Turn 1-2: already showing the dials and his first move of turn 2, and turn 2 setting up the joust.

Turn 3: first shots

Turn 4: He surprised me with the 1 bank

Turn 5:

Turn 6: Perfect contingency planning!

Turn 7: restart the attack run, coming down the eastern side

Turn 8: Let them pay for GSE2!

Turn 9: MISTAKES WERE MADE

Turn 10: The decision

Turn 11: Mopping up

By the way, had a (online tournament) game last night that was the 12th game and the third dozen is now full (8 were tournament/leageue). So I am currently 25:11 overall, 9:4 for all tournament/league games, and 4:0 for hyperspace tournament/league games. Getting more excited for Saturday!

@GreenDragoon - I'm going to assume you noticed @Deroche won a Hyperspace tourney with 5 A-Wings over the weekend?

One thing I noticed, which seems to mirror your games, is that it'll win, but it's not going to run away with MOV in the process. Like, if you go 4-2, you might end up in the bottom of that 4-2 heap and miss out based on MOV.

19 minutes ago, gennataos said:

@GreenDragoon - I'm going to assume you noticed @Deroche won a Hyperspace tourney with 5 A-Wings over the weekend?

One thing I noticed, which seems to mirror your games, is that it'll win, but it's not going to run away with MOV in the process. Like, if you go 4-2, you might end up in the bottom of that 4-2 heap and miss out based on MOV.

Thanks, I had not! And I agree about the mov.

It's an interesting version of the list, too. I'd go as far as saying that it's different enough to be seen as something related but separated.

Drunk forum

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

@GreenDragoon - I'm going to assume you noticed @Deroche won a Hyperspace tourney with 5 A-Wings over the weekend?

One thing I noticed, which seems to mirror your games, is that it'll win, but it's not going to run away with MOV in the process. Like, if you go 4-2, you might end up in the bottom of that 4-2 heap and miss out based on MOV.

Probably a very accurate assessment...go 5-1 with it or go home. Might be better suited for the Hyperspace side event at a System Open where MOV isn't a factor instead of a dedicated Trial.

@GreenDragoon I'll be very interested to see your results if you're playing this weekend. MOV could hurt you on the bubble, but focus on just winning. If you go 5-1, you're through. And if you're in Hyperspace, only winning matters for qualification. Remember if you make the second day of Extended and get eliminated, you get byes (wins) for any rounds of the Hyperspace you missed, which could give a good boost depending on how many rounds you've missed.

8 minutes ago, dadocollin said:

@GreenDragoon I'll be very interested to see your results if you're playing this weekend. MOV could hurt you on the bubble, but focus on just winning. If you go 5-1, you're through. And if you're in Hyperspace, only winning matters for qualification. Remember if you make the second day of Extended and get eliminated, you get byes (wins) for any rounds of the Hyperspace you missed, which could give a good boost depending on how many rounds you've missed.

Oh, I think there's a misunderstanding here! I'm not in Toronto, I'm in europe. So our event will be with 18 people only, meaning 4-0 is the goal.

edit: I might be able to go to UK nationals and/or Paris System Opens if I play my cards right. But maybe not even that!

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

Oh, I think there's a misunderstanding here! I'm not in Toronto, I'm in europe. So our event will be with 18 people only, meaning 4-0 is the goal.

Oh, sorry. My misunderstanding. But regardless, good luck! It'll be interesting to see the lists from Toronto to see if there were any brave souls flying 5 A-wings.

Just now, dadocollin said:

Oh, sorry. My misunderstanding. But regardless, good luck! It'll be interesting to see the lists from Toronto to see if there were any brave souls flying 5 A-wings.

No problem at all.

There were three very high placing A-wing lists in Phoenix in the Hyperspace (11., 13., 14.). I have to say that extended is still very hard to play against, so I'm not actually thinking that there will be fellow Arrowheads making the cut.

Assuming I can borrow the necessary, my current plan is to fly five heroic A-wings at my local hyperspace event next month. If not, I'll probably fly A-A-Rey.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

No problem at all.

There were three very high placing A-wing lists in Phoenix in the Hyperspace (11., 13., 14.). I have to say that extended is still very hard to play against, so I'm not actually thinking that there will be fellow Arrowheads making the cut.

At least for myself, I'm not planning on playing any 5 RZ2 or 5 SF list in extended. I just don't think the extended environment is too kind to either of them.

14 minutes ago, RStan said:

At least for myself, I'm not planning on playing any 5 RZ2 or 5 SF list in extended. I just don't think the extended environment is too kind to either of them.

I'm leaning heavily on this weekend to tell me what the extended environment will be.

17 minutes ago, RStan said:

At least for myself, I'm not planning on playing any 5 RZ2 or 5 SF list in extended. I just don't think the extended environment is too kind to either of them.

Meh. Double Tap Yions (a list I am 0-7 against) is my scariest boogey men and its in both. 5A /4+1 is so fun and refreshing I don't really care if its S tier, and feel pretty sure its solidly Tier 1. Maybe after the meta is settled if something cool emerges I'll try it out, but TBH its prob As until Republicans come out.

I wonder how Aethersprite swarm will compare to As. The force/repo situation is strictly better, dial is slightly better, 4x should be viable and I like 4x better than 5x.... but no but guns 😞

@GreenDragoon ,

I've got four RZ2s itching to fly this Saturday at a local wave tournament.

Been having sooooo much fun with AAX (I-fives), but I feel like you've been swaying me towards the five ships.

Got 4AX locked and loaded... Two greens with crack, two recruits, one Novice X, everyone with heroic+optics as per your findings.

Trying to keep the T70 a small as possible to get more greens with crack.

Any thoughts on flankers or groups?

I'm thinking the two greens flanking and the three I1s grouped, but it's been a while since flying mixed initiative generics.

I saw someone fly five of the new "Resistance" A-Wings vs a Ghost and Luke in a T-65.

The match came down to time and the A-Wings lost three ships and lost on points.

The A-Wings were a pretty scary looking swarm.

12 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

I've got four RZ2s itching to fly this Saturday at a local wave tournament.

Been having sooooo much fun with AAX (I-fives), but I feel like you've been swaying me towards the five ships.

Got 4AX locked and loaded... Two greens with crack, two recruits, one Novice X, everyone with heroic+optics as per your findings.

Trying to keep the T70 a small as possible to get more greens with crack.

I'm currently playing the Snap+4 squad in the vassal team league event and love it. As mentioned somewhere on the previous page, I think Jess might be a good idea, too. I would not put the crack shots on them, and definitely not in the beginning: 1. You will anyway be tempted to favor the front arc and crackshot only reinforces this, and 2. you are likely to underestimate just how potent the constant papercuts are.

Later on you might revisit crackshots on them, but for now I'd skip them to help you fly the list better. I say that after having gone through the same process myself - 6 games with crackshot before I ditched them. And never looked back!

And last point on the list: using a T70 basically locks you in Blues, or removes at least two Heroics. And removing the heroics is fine! I would rather go down to 2 heroics and have all at the same initiative than mixing initiative of A-wings! And I would rather scale all down to Blues than mixing. So the two (or three) 4AX lists I would consider are:

1. 4 Greens with optics, and an i3 Red Sqd Expert
2. 4 Blues with optics +heroic, and Jess
3. 4 Blues with optics, and Snap+Composure

The first might be the easiest, the second the best, and the third the most fun.

20 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Any thoughts on flankers or groups?  

I'm thinking the two greens flanking and the three I1s grouped, but it's been a while since flying mixed initiative generics.

The finger four article is important to read. Put it on the mat and play through the openings, pick one to joust and one to avoid a direct joust.. The first thing the article teaches is that there are two teams of A-wings, and the 5th ship is sometimes alone, sometimes attached to one - or kinda bridging the two groups. An important note: this is not dogmatic! If you have to split one off (see my game against BBBBA), do it!

I wouldn't mix initiative because it will hamper much more flexibility than a crack shot will ever be worth as far as I'm concerned. Time on target is your main weapon, the individual attack is not that important. And huge flexibility is what allows me to keep that time on target!

The basic principles of X-wing still apply, for example you want to have local superiority: fight parts of their list with all of yours. That doesn't mean your ships have to be together, but they should have the same target in one of the arcs.

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The finger four article is important to read. P  ut it on the mat and play through the openings, pick one to joust and one to avoid a direct joust.

Yeah this, this formation and set of strategies really make the list. I started with Feigned Flight and Block Joust (which I've yet to actually fully execute, however the range control discussion has been relevant).

12 hours ago, prauxim said:

Yeah this, this formation and set of strategies really make the list. I started with Feigned Flight and Block Joust (which I've yet to actually fully execute, however the range control discussion has been relevant).

Fantastic advice

I haven't played the 5As a huge amount, but I did read and reference this article multiple times. It has helped me immensely with my other lists that don't even use finger 4.

Have to share this, my teammate painted 3 of my Awings

Nr 1 and Nr 2 (check the rear wings!)

And the lone wolf porg Lulo

Quick heads up: I lost not my first, not my second, but my third hyperspace game!

I'll write up the games soon, and there are severeal reasons and causes. I'm convinced that I was the weak link, and not the list, and there are several lessons to be learned.

edit: did something new: judging from the images I counted how many shots I made and took per turn.

I had 9, 9, 14, and 8 turns per game. My 5 ships made 12, 24, 24 (or so), and 13 shots. And they took 11, 14, 18 (or so) and 17 shots. Obviously it is very bad by me if a 3 ship list gets as many or even more shots than a high efficiency list.