4 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:Not possible because Bayushi and Shiba are twins, but Bauyshi was eaten second and Shiba was sixth.
AFAIK Hantei was actually the oldest child and Ryoshun was the youngest.
Isn't the order they fought in the tournament their birth order?
6 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:Isn't the order they fought in the tournament their birth order?
Yeah I think that must be it (from youngest to oldest):
Ryoshun -> Fu Leng -> Togashi -> Hida -> Shinjo -> Bayushi / Shiba -> Doji -> Akodo -> Hantei
2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:Yeah I think that must be it (from youngest to oldest):
Ryoshun -> Fu Leng -> Togashi -> Hida -> Shinjo -> Bayushi / Shiba -> Doji -> Akodo -> Hantei
I believe it was actually oldest to youngest as several sources have sighted that Hantei was the youngest of the siblings. Togashi and Fu Leng's place in the birth order are indeterminate as they did not participate; however, the fact that none of the others noticed that Togashi was not in either the first or last pairing suggests he was born towards the middle of the pack likely before or after the twins. Fu Leng I recall seeing was on the younger scale as well but that may be mis-remembering something from elsewhere.
On 10/18/2018 at 11:27 AM, AtoMaki said:Not possible because Bayushi and Shiba are twins, but Bauyshi was eaten second and Shiba was sixth.
It was a long banquet.
On 10/18/2018 at 11:27 AM, AtoMaki said:AFAIK Hantei was actually the oldest child and Ryoshun was the youngest.
I don't particularly remember Ryoshun's place in the serving order, but Hantei was definitely the youngest, born after Onnotangu had started eating his kids. Amaterasu got to secret Hantei off because Onnotangu was distracted. Additionally, this myth is blatantly copied from Greek mythology, which had Zeus as the youngest and the only child not devoured by Cronos.
6 hours ago, SirEuain said:but Hantei was definitely the youngest, born after Onnotangu had started eating his kids.
Definitely not because one of the oft overlooked causes of the Fall happening was Hantei forbidding Bayushi and Shiba to conspire against their father.
11 hours ago, SirEuain said:It was a long banquet.
I don't particularly remember Ryoshun's place in the serving order, but Hantei was definitely the youngest, born after Onnotangu had started eating his kids. Amaterasu got to secret Hantei off because Onnotangu was distracted. Additionally, this myth is blatantly copied from Greek mythology, which had Zeus as the youngest and the only child not devoured by Cronos.
Ryoshun was specifically called out as being the first to be eaten and the fact that he was the one who spent the longest in their father's belly was the reason that he was the only one of the Kami who "died" as a result.
On 10/12/2018 at 8:39 PM, Vutall said:It's important to note in the RPG they DO mention Ryoshun, but that he has completely been forgotten to the mortal world, hence why Kachiko's story didn't include him.
I'm interested to see what it was Hotaru asked Kachiko to do...
Hi guys, I hope I'm not too late bringing this thing up again. I'm not as knowledgeable as any of you are but I'm still very interested in this topic. Basically, if FFG would have decided to keep the idea of a 10th kami, wouldn't it make sense that Kachiko were fully aware of its existence since it's a fact recorded in the Tao of Shinsei?
24 minutes ago, shosuro91 said:Hi guys, I hope I'm not too late bringing this thing up again. I'm not as knowledgeable as any of you are but I'm still very interested in this topic. Basically, if FFG would have decided to keep the idea of a 10th kami, wouldn't it make sense that Kachiko were fully aware of its existence since it's a fact recorded in the Tao of Shinsei?
Kami aren't related to the Tao which are the philosophical teaching of Shinsei. Its more like a Confucianism and Taoist more tightly rolled into one.
More than likely the existence of the 10th Kami may be one of those things that was known to a small number of people at the dawn of the empire that were close confidants of the Kami, but they may not have wanted the news that one of their brothers had already died to spread to far, as it potentially encourages resistance by those who opposed their rise and lessens their own image of power.
6 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:Kami aren't related to the Tao which are the philosophical teaching of Shinsei. Its more like a Confucianism and Taoist more tightly rolled into one.
More than likely the existence of the 10th Kami may be one of those things that was known to a small number of people at the dawn of the empire that were close confidants of the Kami, but they may not have wanted the news that one of their brothers had already died to spread to far, as it potentially encourages resistance by those who opposed their rise and lessens their own image of power.
I believe to recall that one of the things that Shiba records in what would later be known as the Tao of Shinsei is a conversation in which Shinsei corrects Hantei when he says that there were 10 kami, not 9, as Hantei originally thought. So I think that the existence of a tenth kami is actually written down in the Tao of Shinsei.
Edit: I found the original text that confirms this. It's a quotation from the Tao of Shinsei that appears in Way of the Phoenix , p. 117:
"Of the nine children of the Sun and Moon; myself, Doji, Akodo, Shinjo, Hida, Togashi, Bayushi, Shiba, and Fu Leng..." began the Emperor.
"No," said Shinsei"
"No?" my brother asked quizzically.
"The Sun and Moon had ten children, though you will never know your youngest brother."
Edited by shosuro918 minutes ago, shosuro91 said:I believe to recall that one of the things that Shiba records in what would later be known as the Tao of Shinsei is a conversation in which Shinsei corrects Hantei when he says that there were 10 kami, not 9, as Hantei originally thought. So I think that the existence of a tenth kami is actually written down in the Tao of Shinsei.
The problem is the original text was lost and what remains was versions that were cobbled together from later copies and had been "curated" by various powers in the old lore so references like that could have been taken out. There is also the issue that the inclusion of the 10th Kami was a retcon to the old setting so there are early works that include no mention of him and later products that were after his inclusion where there is mention.
3 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:The problem is the original text was lost and what remains was versions that were cobbled together from later copies and had been "curated" by various powers in the old lore so references like that could have been taken out. There is also the issue that the inclusion of the 10th Kami was a retcon to the old setting so there are early works that include no mention of him and later products that were after his inclusion where there is mention.
That makes complete sense. I didn't take into account that the Tao was lost.
A lot of the “Sacred texts” in the Empire are heavily modified and censored, depending on the interest of certain parties. Like there’s different version of the Bible in our world, and the Vatican decides which texts are apocryphal and which not.
For example, the Akodo’s Leadership everyone knows and study is modified from the original one. As Akodo has extensively recommended the use of deception and other not-quite-honorable tactics in his work, one of the first Hanteis (I think the fifth or sixth) said that it was impossible that the Kami had written it, and it was heresy, so the Ikoma started modifying it until all Leaderships in Rokugan has been replaced by the new version. The only copy of the original version is kept by the Ikoma, and only the Lion Clan Champion can read it.
So certain texts can have different versions of the same story depending on which clan is telling it.
Edited by Tabris2k36 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:A lot of the “Sacred texts” in the Empire are heavily modified and censored, depending on the interest of certain parties. Like there’s different version of the Bible in our world, and the Vatican decides which texts are apocryphal and which not.
For example, the Akodo’s Leadership everyone knows and study is modified from the original one. As Akodo has extensively recommended the use of deception and other not-quite-honorable tactics in his work, one of the first Hanteis (I think the fifth or sixth) said that it was impossible that the Kami had written it, and it was heresy, so the Ikoma started modifying it until all Leadeships in Rokugan has been replaced by the new version. The only copy of the original version is kept by the Ikoma, and only the Lion Clan Champion can read it.
So certain texts can have different versions of the same story depending on which clan is telling it.
Now I wonder whether- and how curious Daisetsu would be in reading the original Leadership , and what he might be willing to do to see it. His little story with Shizue does seem to indicate he'd be interested.
Edited by Mangod38 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:A lot of the “Sacred texts” in the Empire are heavily modified and censored, depending on the interest of certain parties. Like there’s different version of the Bible in our world, and the Vatican decides which texts are apocryphal and which not.
For example, the Akodo’s Leadership everyone knows and study is modified from the original one. As Akodo has extensively recommended the use of deception and other not-quite-honorable tactics in his work, one of the first Hanteis (I think the fifth or sixth) said that it was impossible that the Kami had written it, and it was heresy, so the Ikoma started modifying it until all Leadeships in Rokugan has been replaced by the new version. The only copy of the original version is kept by the Ikoma, and only the Lion Clan Champion can read it.
So certain texts can have different versions of the same story depending on which clan is telling it.
Very enlightening. Thank you!
On 11/1/2018 at 10:48 AM, Tabris2k said:A lot of the “Sacred texts” in the Empire are heavily modified and censored, depending on the interest of certain parties. Like there’s different version of the Bible in our world, and the Vatican decides which texts are apocryphal and which not.
Technically, the Council of Nicea made that call; Rome has never changed that. It has, however, approved or disapproved specific translations... The canon of St Basil was, except for 3rd & 4th Maccabees, adopted at Nicea. It's the later protestant revolution that drops 6 books.
Which highlights a major flaw in Shinseism organizationally: It has no central authority to actually approve nor to enforce such a canon.
It's said that the Phoenix have a full or nearly full copy of Shiba's original... and, per Way of Shinsei ... and they don't let anyone read it. (Way of Shinsei1E; p 30 rc, last 3¶)
And that's another issue. It's not a text written by the enlightened one, but by followers reciting what he said. Shiba collates the words of Shinsei as recited by others and remembered by himself. So it may not even be authentic in the original...
Shiba did sit by the side of Hantei and Shinsei as they sat and talked, writing down their words as they were spoken...