21 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:I don't think that's what I'm getting. Maybe Hotaru asking Kachiko to use some of them Scorpion resources to have Satsume offed?
Pretty sure that's a nope. The mystery of Satsume's death is (mostly) resolved in the DLC module for the RPG.
1 hour ago, Kaito Kikaze said:Pretty sure that's a nope. The mystery of Satsume's death is (mostly) resolved in the DLC module for the RPG.
I didn't say that Kachiko did do it, just that maybe it was what Hotaru asked.
From her internal dialogue, it sounds like Hotaru is trying to unravel a Scorpion plot against the Crane as a way of proving herself to Satsume. I get the feeling that she was trying to lean on her relationship with Kachiko to get some inside info or an assist on a Crane victory over the Scorpion.
... which means that Shosuro Hametsu might be right, in that Kachiko may have compromised her clan at least once as a result of her relationship with Hotaru. Doesn’t get him off the hook for resenting her happiness, but if that went down 5 years ago and they’re still sneaking around together, he might be right to be suspicious.
When Hotaru is trying to figure out who killed her father, she does consider Kachiko doing it as an unbidden 'favor' for her a possibility.
Which means she likely had done something significant for Hotaru in the past for Kachiko's devotion to be considered possibly that strong.
On 10/12/2018 at 9:51 AM, sndwurks said:I am almost curious...
What are peoples thoughts about the all but canon confirmation about the oncoming Second Day of Thunder?
1. Not all that shocked, it was the story beat of the first L5R story that FFG is taking us back to with the rebooted timeline.
2. What is interesting is that apparently the prophecy of the Seven Thunders is known, at least in some circles of samurai. In the old lore, part of the justification for the Elemental Council's popping open Black Scrolls left and right was that Rokugan didn't know about it until the Council spread the word. That's.... a pretty major shift, actually, and it makes me extremely nervous about how they're going to justify opening all of those scrolls this time around, assuming that's how it works.
Given that every clan has an entire family named after one of the seven thunders and they worship their ancestors, and to a lesser degree it is the origin of the Miya family and a good part of the reason Shinseism is ubiquitous and respected throughout the empire, and that this land has this whole ancestor worship aspect where they remember the finest deeds in their history, especially the deeds of their family founders, it stretched incredulity that the basic idea of "A champion from every clan marched into the Shadowlands and defeated the dark Kami" would have been entirely forgotten.
It kind of has to be part of their whole foundational myth about how their society's origin. I would think it a tale told in some form to every Rokugani child throughout the ages. Perhaps some of the details being altered over time, each clan would have its own ever-so-slightly different version when elaborated on, but it just isn't something people would forget. Rather I would imagine there would be countless plays, poems, storybooks, paintings, etc. about the event.
The confusion ought to be over exactly which details from the countless retellings over 1000 years were the accurate ones.
Agreed. I can get the idea that they don't have an accurate description of it in their history, or even " and then our founding champion left under Hantei's orders to [something which we've been forbidden to know but we know is sealed in the scrolls]"
The idea that entire story could have vanished is a bit unlikely. There's been no civilizational collapse or great diaspora which could have caused it, so the only other option is it being forcibly suppressed, but the individuals are so significant that people would 'know that there's a bit they don't know', if that makes sense.
I always understood it to be the part they didn't know was that the Day of Thunder was cyclical, that Fu Leng would return.
1 hour ago, Hida Jitenno said:I always understood it to be the part they didn't know was that the Day of Thunder was cyclical, that Fu Leng would return.
Its partially this, although the prophecies of Uikku also did give them hints of the return of Fu Leng, and as the Phoenix delved deeper into their meaning following the start of the clan war they believed that the scrolls would contain a method to contain him again or possibly defeat him for good (which they sort of did).
Personally one of the things I'd like to see explored that got very much glossed over in the first iteration was what effect did carrying the final scroll in his heart do to Togashi. Just being around the others for short periods was enough to tempt and corrupt most mortals and he carried one on his person for 1,000+ years (admittedly using multiple bodies but it was still his psyche in contact with the scroll) so should that have had an effect on him. Was it possible that his inscrutable nature and tendency to speak in riddles was not just him trying to be enigmatic and avoid contaminating future events that he had foreseen but a sign of his own madness being brought on by Shadowlands taint. Imagine if as each scroll was opened the remaining scrolls took on more of Fu Lengs taint in an effort to contain him until the final remaining scroll (trapped in the body of Togashi) bursts from the well spring of power it is unable to hold back and Fu Leng ascends combining his powers with those of his brother.
12 hours ago, Hida Jitenno said:I always understood it to be the part they didn't know was that the Day of Thunder was cyclical, that Fu Leng would return.
Bingo.
What the Phoenix pried out was that another batch of Thunders was going to be required.
20 hours ago, Schmoozies said:Was it possible that his inscrutable nature and tendency to speak in riddles was not just him trying to be enigmatic and avoid contaminating future events that he had foreseen but a sign of his own madness being brought on by Shadowlands taint.
To be honest, from a certain perspective, Togashi did his very best to have Fu Leng win the Second Day of Thunder but make his victory progressively less meaningful over time. If the 1KYD setting is any measure, Togashi could have played the long game for becoming the next Champion of Jigoku.
On 10/12/2018 at 8:16 AM, DarkHorse said:Yeah, I figured the omission of Lady Shinjo was a typo but what a bad typo to make when people are going to comb through the book for story clues.
I would go with that it is a typo, because the quote from which she's omitted is: "The Sun and Moon had nine children: [Lists 8]." Period. New Paragraph. Shinjo isn't mentioned then until all the Kami are mentioned again.
Something else about this story (maybe an unintentional mistake): Hotaru refers to Hantei and the "Ninth Kami."
In Old5R, Fu Leng was the Ninth Kami. The first eight were the eight that landed in the Empire.
38 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:I would go with that it is a typo, because the quote from which she's omitted is: "The Sun and Moon had nine children: [Lists 8]." Period. New Paragraph. Shinjo isn't mentioned then until all the Kami are mentioned again.
Something else about this story (maybe an unintentional mistake): Hotaru refers to Hantei and the "Ninth Kami."
In Old5R, Fu Leng was the Ninth Kami. The first eight were the eight that landed in the Empire.
Depends, there was also the birth order argument where Hantei was the "youngest" of the Kami and so the "ninth" (I'm not gonna wade into the Ryoshun argument here) born of them.
10 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:Depends, there was also the birth order argument where Hantei was the "youngest" of the Kami and so the "ninth" (I'm not gonna wade into the Ryoshun argument here) born of them.
I made that argument to myself and then deleted it before posting that final edit. It still just feels a little janky, but I suppose I could understand it from the "I'm the youngest the people need to know about." But was he then considered the Eighth for the first 40 years before Little Bunny Fu Fu showed up? And then was like "lol I'm Ninth yo"?
And by that logic, if/once Ryoshun is revealed, will they start referring to Hantei as the Tenth Kami? It just seems a very weird change to make.
2 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:I made that argument to myself and then deleted it before posting that final edit. It still just feels a little janky, but I suppose I could understand it from the "I'm the youngest the people need to know about." But was he then considered the Eighth for the first 40 years before Little Bunny Fu Fu showed up? And then was like "lol I'm Ninth yo"?
And by that logic, if/once Ryoshun is revealed, will they start referring to Hantei as the Tenth Kami? It just seems a very weird change to make.
The Ryoshun one I agree with. That said after he was revealed he was always referred to as the 10th Kami (despite the fact that he was the first to be devoured by Onnotangu which was supposed to have been done in their birth order hinting that he should have been the eldest of the Kami) so who knows, I personally hope we avoid that retcon this time around as it was very unnecessary in my opinion. The siblings made reference to Fu Leng prior to his return however (and there was I believe reference somewhere that one of the points of the time they spent exploring the Empire prior to the Tournament was to try and locate him), and their was a place for him to challenge their siblings for his right to rule the empire (unlike the others who selected single combat, Togashi who was to stand in as Hantei's champion, since he had also not yet fought in the tournament, elected for open war as the stakes of the match).
The issue with the numbering is that it does get muddied by the histories of the mortals. Hentai was the 8th Kami that made up the Empire, the 9th born that the general public was aware of based on the accepted creation myth of the Empire and the 10th born based on the order that the Kami were apparently devoured in (although the fact that Bayushi and Shiba were twins born at the same time could offset that slightly as their birth could be technically counted as one thus keeping our 9 births myth intact even with Ryoshun.
I think maybe the issue is that sometimes they are numbered in the order that they came into existence...
In which case Ryoshun was the 1st and Hantei was the 10th and the order of the others isn't so clear. But if one doesn't know about Ryoshun, Hantei is the 9th.
But, if you could the order they arrived on the mortal plain, Hantei was the first and trained in Earth before returning to the Heavens to face his father. And then Fu Leng landed last and was the 9th and Ryoshun never "landed" until the spirit wars, making him the 10th.
4 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:But, if you could the order they arrived on the mortal plain, Hantei was the first and trained in Earth before returning to the Heavens to face his father. And then Fu Leng landed last and was the 9th and Ryoshun never "landed" until the spirit wars, making him the 10th.
Actually Hantei trained in the Realm of Dreams or the Dragonlands (a separate realm in Tengoku) depending on which source you look at before confronting his father. Fu Leng actually would have landed before Hantei as he was the one that dragged Hantei from the heavens after he was cut from Onotangu's belly along with the other siblings. The only reason he didn't land with the others on Seppun Hill is that his struggles caused him to fall on a different trajectory from the others, and when he landed it was with such force that he tore through the mortal realms and crashed into Jigoku.
1 hour ago, TheHobgoblyn said:I think maybe the issue is that sometimes they are numbered in the order that they came into existence...
In which case Ryoshun was the 1st and Hantei was the 10th and the order of the others isn't so clear. But if one doesn't know about Ryoshun, Hantei is the 9th.
I don't know that Ryoshun was the oldest.
Also, sources are contradictory on the order in which they were eaten. Some sources indicate they were eaten right after birth, while others explain that the Kami had a childhood together in Tengoku before they were eaten, and that Bayushi and Akodo were the first two eaten.
Just now, Hida Jitenno said:I don't know that Ryoshun was the oldest.
Also, sources are contradictory on the order in which they were eaten. Some sources indicate they were eaten right after birth, while others explain that the Kami had a childhood together in Tengoku before they were eaten, and that Bayushi and Akodo were the first two eaten.
From what I read they grew, then Moon was convinced by the Nothing that his children were conspiring against him. Him acting all weird set the children to conspiring, and Fu Leng ratted them out. This confirmed the Moon's suspicions and so he started eating them all.
"
Onnotangu devoured all of his children. The first to be eaten was
Ryoshun
then Bayushi and
Akodo
fell.
Hida
,
Doji
, and
Shiba
were likewise found and consumed. Fu Leng's was hiding in a clever refuge, but
Togashi
led
Shinjo
near it and exposed them all to his father. Lord Moon consumed them all.
[8]
With each child he ate his wife Amaterasu fed him a cup of poisoned sake. When he came to eating the tenth child, Hantei, he mistakenly ate a
stone
instead. Hantei was hidden away by Amaterasu who taught him about honor, the way of the warrior and the noble man Onnotangu had once been.
"
1 minute ago, Waywardpaladin said:From what I read they grew, then Moon was convinced by the Nothing that his children were conspiring against him. Him acting all weird set the children to conspiring, and Fu Leng ratted them out. This confirmed the Moon's suspicions and so he started eating them all.
" Onnotangu devoured all of his children. The first to be eaten was Ryoshun then Bayushi and Akodo fell. Hida , Doji , and Shiba were likewise found and consumed. Fu Leng's was hiding in a clever refuge, but Togashi led Shinjo near it and exposed them all to his father. Lord Moon consumed them all. [8] With each child he ate his wife Amaterasu fed him a cup of poisoned sake. When he came to eating the tenth child, Hantei, he mistakenly ate a stone instead. Hantei was hidden away by Amaterasu who taught him about honor, the way of the warrior and the noble man Onnotangu had once been. "
Sure, but from Akodo's page:
His father Onnotangu hunted his children down. Bayushi fell first, and enraged, Akodo charged, only to be devoured himself, the second to be consumed. [2]
4 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:
That predates the knowledge that Ryoshun existed as the stated reason he was the only Kami to die in Onotangu's belly was that he was the first consumed.
1 minute ago, Schmoozies said:That predates the knowledge that Ryoshun existed as the stated reason he was the only Kami to die in Onotangu's belly was that he was the first consumed.
Fair enough.
On 10/15/2018 at 2:09 AM, Magnus Grendel said:Agreed. I can get the idea that they don't have an accurate description of it in their history, or even " and then our founding champion left under Hantei's orders to [something which we've been forbidden to know but we know is sealed in the scrolls]"
The idea that entire story could have vanished is a bit unlikely. There's been no civilizational collapse or great diaspora which could have caused it, so the only other option is it being forcibly suppressed, but the individuals are so significant that people would 'know that there's a bit they don't know', if that makes sense.
With all due respect, by the descriptions of the original Iuchiban attack, his identity had to have been fairly common knowledge among the clans involved. The Shosuro and Ikoma thoroughly altered the imperial histories in the original canon. Certainly, some knew the truth (presumably the Emperor and at least the Dragon and Scorpion daimyo), but by the time of the Scorpion Clan Coup, it was a secret.
Now, as far as the original storyline's concerned, we're inundated with a bunch of WTF moments on the part of characters, even outside the storyline tournaments. Just the prophecy of the Last Akodo alone should've been enough that people would be falling all over themselves to keep the Akodo flush with brides. The Thunders' bloodlines, naturally, should've been preserved to **** and back, with detailed genealogies and a family or two tasked with it. Hantei should've told Bayushi to make another family to keep tabs on Shinsei, too.
But it didn't happen.
Maybe this is how FFG is intending to fix the problem.
4 hours ago, Hida Jitenno said:I don't know that Ryoshun was the oldest.
Also, sources are contradictory on the order in which they were eaten. Some sources indicate they were eaten right after birth, while others explain that the Kami had a childhood together in Tengoku before they were eaten, and that Bayushi and Akodo were the first two eaten.
This is honestly the single most realistic thing about L5R's worldbuilding: the fact that there are many contradictory accounts of the gods and what exactly happened with them. ?
On 10/17/2018 at 6:13 PM, TheHobgoblyn said:I think maybe the issue is that sometimes they are numbered in the order that they came into existence...
Not possible because Bayushi and Shiba are twins, but Bauyshi was eaten second and Shiba was sixth.
AFAIK Hantei was actually the oldest child and Ryoshun was the youngest.