So in the very beginning of the core rulebook we get a story involving Kachiko and Hotaru. There is a precise date but idk the L5R calendar that well as to where to place this with the other stories.

27th Day of the Month of Togashi, 1118, in a private garden of the Esteemed Palaces of the Crane.

Kachiko is telling the story of how Lord Moon and Lady Sun had nine children. Lord Moon swallowed all the children until Hantei challenged his father to free his siblings.

There's also an instance where Hotaru is daydreaming about her father while Kachiko is telling the story:

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"You do not deserve to wield Shukujo. The clan cannot afford a weak champion. You must prove yourself a worth heir, first."
Though Lord Satsume may have been far away from Doji Palace, her father's voice filled her head as if he stood by Hotaru's side.

I will prove myself, father. Discerning the nature of the Scorpion's scheme from Kachiko, one of the most infamous manipulators of the Scorpion Clan, would be nigh impossible.
But Hotaru had no other choice but to try, even if it meant betraying Kachiko's trust.

Everybody but Fu Leng was saved, he ended up in Jigoku and nobody bothered to save him. Fu Leng challenged Hantei to claim his title. Hantei accepted and declared Togashi to be his warrior. Fu Leng declares war on everybody.

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The war when the ancestral sword of the Crane, Shukujo, was nearly lost. Hotaru's ancestor, Doji Konishiko, had been one of the seven mortal Thunders who were finally able to defeat Fu Leng with the guidance of Shinsei, the Little Teacher. Konishiko had fought alongside the actress Shosuro, Kachiko's forebear, as well as the shugenja Isawa, the berserker Matsu, the duelist Mirumoto, the battle maiden Utaku, and the warrior Hida Atarashi.

Then we switch back to Kachiko and Hotaru where Hotaru asks Kachiko if she believes in the prophecy of the Seven Thunders. That after a thousand years, the cycle will repeat, and the Thunders will return. Hotaru whispered to Kachiko that she would fight by her side. The last paragraph is where it gets interesting.

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Hotaru could not pretend to be heartless, could not scheme as the Scorpion did. And she would not betray Kachiko.
"I know I cannot ask this of you."
Who would dare ask her to betray her clan? But I must. And in so doing, place my honor in her hands.
"But would you help me now?"

Now that is interesting. So the current story is in the year 1123, which means they've apparently had a significant relationship for at least 5 years now. Suddenly the high school/gempuku pillow pals theory doesn't sound so far-fetched. ?

I don't have a copy of the book but this already throws the old calendar all out of whack. The old5R calendar had 12 months, the first two were Sun and Moon then the 10 kami. If there are only 9 kami then what happened to December aka Month of the Tiger aka Month of the Tenth Kami? The month of Toagshi used to be October aka Month of the Rat, the first month of Winter.

Unless she is referring to only 9 surviving kami children then all is well again.

1 hour ago, DarkHorse said:

I don't have a copy of the book but this already throws the old calendar all out of whack. The old5R calendar had 12 months, the first two were Sun and Moon then the 10 kami. If there are only 9 kami then what happened to December aka Month of the Tiger aka Month of the Tenth Kami? The month of Toagshi used to be October aka Month of the Rat, the first month of Winter.

Unless she is referring to only 9 surviving kami children then all is well again.

There's definitely only 9 kami in this story: Hida, Doji, Togashi, Akodo, Shiba, Bayushi, Shinjo, Fu Leng and Hantei.

1 minute ago, ElSuave said:

There's definitely only 9 kami in this story: Hida, Doji, Togashi, Akodo, Shiba, Bayushi, Shinjo, Fu Leng and Hantei.

According to a screen shot on FB, Shinjo is missing from the list of kami.

3 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

According to a screen shot on FB, Shinjo is missing from the list of kami.

It was a typo. He's not listed in the first paragraph but is later mentioned on the same page.

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Always restless, Shinjo would venture beyond the Empire's borders to scout for any threats yet to come.

24 minutes ago, ElSuave said:

It was a typo. He's not listed in the first paragraph but is later mentioned on the same page.

Yeah, I figured the omission of Lady Shinjo was a typo but what a bad typo to make when people are going to comb through the book for story clues.

3 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

I don't have a copy of the book but this already throws the old calendar all out of whack. The old5R calendar had 12 months, the first two were Sun and Moon then the 10 kami. If there are only 9 kami then what happened to December aka Month of the Tiger aka Month of the Tenth Kami? The month of Toagshi used to be October aka Month of the Rat, the first month of Winter.

Unless she is referring to only 9 surviving kami children then all is well again.

Before they added Ryoshun into the old canon (March to Volturnum/Oblivion's Gate), the tenth was dedicated to humanity as a whole, as they are the children of Lady Sun's Tears and Lord Moon's Blood.

Edit: So I double checked myself on this. Evidently in Way of the Phoenix, a 1e or 2e RPG book, they had Shinsei informing Emperor Hantei that there was a Tenth Kami "but you will never know him."

That tickled something in my mind that out of respect for the dead, Hantei decided that the Kami would keep their youngest brother's name to themselves, and not teach the humans about it.

It was a bit of an error in the old lore too.

Sun, Moon and 10 Kami, but there were only 9 Kami that Rokugan knew. As early as 1st edition they hinted that there was a 10th Kami, as Jitteno said, and then during the period that Wizards of the Coast owned the game, they introduced the 10th Kami as Ryoshun. But even when he was "revealed", it was more to the reader than to Rokugan itself. There were only a select few people who knew about him.

Unfortunately, after AEG got it back, the writers they put in charge of the setting well... they didn't quite recall that.

So in the 4E RPG book they suddenly indicated that Ryoshun was the formal name for one of the months. But, again, no one was supposed to know of his existence, so how could that possibly be? Was knowledge of his existence really so ubiquitously spread throughout the entirety of the empire from the handful of witnesses (despite so much of the rest of the events of that time being kept more or less secret and not spoken much of again) for that possibly to have become a thing?

Moreover, it was retconned that part of the reason why Hantei gave the Badger Clan their lands was because the "grave of Ryoshun" was there, even though that once again completely disregards the fact that Hantei didn't know about the 10th Kami and never would. How even Shinsei would have known about him given he was just another spirit among the dead is not clear at all. Furthermore, how could Shinsei claim that Hantei would never meet Ryoshun given that Hantei would inevitably die at some point and through traveling through the land of the dead would almost certainly meet Ryoshun? One could suppose that Shinsei would mean "until after your death", but if one is using the present tense (there IS a 10th Kami) rather than past tense (there WAS a 10th Kami) demonstrating he not only knows about the realm of the dead, but considers it a valid realm of existence... it just doesn't fit.

My best guess here is that the 10th Kami was meant to be a character held back as a future antagonist who perhaps built an empire well outside of Rokugan and could invade, but WotC wanted to go a more mythical route with its shadow ninja and spirits and decided to throw that little storyhook in there to boot. That easily would have explained how Shinsei would have known about this 10th Kami by wandering the world and why the brothers wouldn't have met - after death experiences wouldn't count in this scenario.

Either way, the idea that Hantei ever knew the name or that there was an earthly grave much less have assigned someone to guard it, but only after the Unicorn left to go wander the world-- well, it all doesn't fit with the whole "you will never know him" bit and seems more like a giant plothole.

Still, after the concept of a 10th character on par with the Great Clan founders had been established, the new AEG staff just ran with it and pushed it, and acted like it was just common knowledge to the people of Rokugan because it was common knowledge to the readers/players.

I think the new writers under FFG also have a bit of trouble distinguishing between common knowledge for readers/players and common knowledge for denizens of their world. Matsu Tsuko asks about the Boar Clan in one of the earliest stories-- and in a Rokugan with "innumerable minor clans", why on earth would a minor clan that sprung up out of no where, lasted a relatively short period of time without making any particular impact and then disappeared in a single night under unusual and secretive circumstances be the first thing she thinks of when she hears the term "boar"? If any minor clan is going to be forgotten, I would certainly imagine that would have been one of them.

Furthermore, while it initially seemed as though FFG was going to make significant changes to the setting, the new RPG book seems to have pretty much demonstrated that absolutely nothing beyond the gender of a few characters has been changed. Everything else has pretty much just been copy and pasted from the old setting without any consideration, modification or improvement. As such, it seems very likely that rather than more being done with this "mysterious 10th Kami" hanging plotthread, that it will be 100% exactly as it was in the old setting.

34 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Furthermore, while it initially seemed as though FFG was going to make significant changes to the setting, the new RPG book seems to have pretty much demonstrated that absolutely nothing beyond the gender of a few characters has been changed. Everything else has pretty much just been copy and pasted from the old setting without any consideration, modification or improvement. As such, it seems very likely that rather than more being done with this "mysterious 10th Kami" hanging plotthread, that it will be 100% exactly as it was in the old setting.

Uhm, you know Daisetsu wasn't a thing (in this form at least) in the old lore right, plus the whole Elemental Imbalance, Tsunami and Meisheido are all new threads that are unique (at this point) to the FFG timeline. Their have been plenty of steps taken to differentiate this version from the AEG version. Will there be some similarities yes, and will those of us who were old fans hold out for call backs to some of our favorite moments sure, but nothing says that things will or have to be repeated in the same way.

its like the Walking Dead comics versus TV show. They are following the same basic thread line and eventual destinations are the same (we will eventually build to a 2nd Day of Thunder since its a fundamental part of the setting but nothing says it has to be the culmination of the first major story ark like it was in the old game) but the path to get there can take difference routes and go explore new directions, some characters can be changed or have their roles swapped around (compare comic Carol to the show to see what a difference it can be), new characters can be introduced and become integral to the setting.

Its a reboot, you take the chance to revisit your setting and take the stuff that worked and add your own sensibility to it.

2 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

Uhm, you know Daisetsu wasn't a thing (in this form at least) in the old lore right, plus the whole Elemental Imbalance, Tsunami and Meisheido are all new threads that are unique (at this point) to the FFG timeline. Their have been plenty of steps taken to differentiate this version from the AEG version. Will there be some similarities yes, and will those of us who were old fans hold out for call backs to some of our favorite moments sure, but nothing says that things will or have to be repeated in the same way.

Except he was a character, he was a major character. The only thing that was altered was his fate.

Every family of every Great Clan was kept, at least those that were initially there-- for example, none were redacted from the clans that had more than 4 and none were added to the clans that had less than 4 in order to even things out (well, the Kaito was added, but not as an initial setting thing.)

Every single minor clan was kept and none of them moved or altered in their aspects, and even the silly using the animal in the place of a proper family name convention was kept. They added one more, but that is exactly the extent of it all.

Sure, they had a tsunami instead of a Scorpion Clan coup (not that the Scorpion weren't thinking about it), and the Bloodspeakers never kidnapped Empress while she was pregnant with Daisetsu. But thus far everything about the setting has been copy and pasted and the changes to the story have simply amounted to character decisions.

That very much indicates to me that there likely will be a 10th Kami revealed and it will be Ryoshun who will still have the rather uneventful background role of being a shepard of the dead, kind of just wasting that plot arc going anywhere-- simply because that's exactly how it was in the setting before and they don't seem to want to make any serious changes.

13 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Except he was a character, he was a major character. The only thing that was altered was his fate.

Which is exactly what was said above. Though in this case, his fate has been altered from "kidnapped as an infant, hidden in Jigoku for a couple decades, re-emerges fully corrupted as the scion of Fu Leng and orchestrates the murder of Emperor Toturi I" to "raised by his family is newly the Heir of the current Emperor."

So sure, basically no change at all.

16 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Every family of every Great Clan was kept, at least those that were initially there-- for example, none were redacted from the clans that had more than 4 and none were added to the clans that had less than 4 in order to even things out (well, the Kaito was added, but not as an initial setting thing.)

Every single minor clan was kept and none of them moved or altered in their aspects, and even the silly using the animal in the place of a proper family name convention was kept. They added one more, but that is exactly the extent of it all.

Yes, because 1120 years of history was kept intact, so they didn't completely overhaul the entire setting and make it so they bought the mere right to slap "L5R" on things and regulate absolutely everything else to the dustbin of history.

18 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

That very much indicates to me that there likely will be a 10th Kami revealed and it will be Ryoshun who will still have the rather uneventful background role of being a shepard of the dead, kind of just wasting that plot arc going anywhere-- simply because that's exactly how it was in the setting before and they don't seem to want to make any serious changes.

Butterfly flapping its wings. It doesn't cause a tsunami directly beneath the butterfly, but only once it builds traveling to the other side of the world. You're judging that they haven't made significant, monumental changes (other than no Coup, no kidnapping of the Emperor's wife, change in status of Toshi Ranbo, which clans are going to war and why) in about a year, while looking at events that happened several years into AEG's timeline as "what's destined to happen, but with a girl instead."

I am almost curious...

What are peoples thoughts about the all but canon confirmation about the oncoming Second Day of Thunder?

4 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Except he was a character, he was a major character. The only thing that was altered was his fate.

Every family of every Great Clan was kept, at least those that were initially there-- for example, none were redacted from the clans that had more than 4 and none were added to the clans that had less than 4 in order to even things out (well, the Kaito was added, but not as an initial setting thing.)

Every single minor clan was kept and none of them moved or altered in their aspects, and even the silly using the animal in the place of a proper family name convention was kept. They added one more, but that is exactly the extent of it all.

Sure, they had a tsunami instead of a Scorpion Clan coup (not that the Scorpion weren't thinking about it), and the Bloodspeakers never kidnapped Empress while she was pregnant with Daisetsu. But thus far everything about the setting has been copy and pasted and the changes to the story have simply amounted to character decisions.

That very much indicates to me that there likely will be a 10th Kami revealed and it will be Ryoshun who will still have the rather uneventful background role of being a shepard of the dead, kind of just wasting that plot arc going anywhere-- simply because that's exactly how it was in the setting before and they don't seem to want to make any serious changes.

So far everything about Daisetsu is different, even more so with the Emperor's final decree.

The Tsunami is nothing like the coup, one resulted in a massive upswing of Ronin and destabilizing of the established social order with the ousting of a great clan, banishment of another's champion and the ascension of an inexperienced and ill prepared heir to the role of Emperor. The Tsunami has been a major issue for the Crane and the resulting food shortages that resulted are causing unrest but not to the same extent that the coup did. The main driver is the tension that it is precipitating with the other clans who were either used to the Crane being the bread basket for the rest of them, or are reacting to the movements of the Crane as they try to recover their lost standing.

I know you have a bug about the minor clans but them being kept and conforming for the most part to the setting as it was established for this time period as per the old timeline is not a bad thing as there were fans of most of those clans and so giving them a nod that their favorite characters may still have a role to play in the RPG or future story developments is not a bad thing.

So far large chunks of our story line are already different. Perfect Land sect is new, elemental imbalance/unease of the Phoenix with Meishodo is new, tsunami is new, Unicorn/Lion war new and all give us interesting story directions for going forward. Are we seeing many of the same faces, yes but what would have been the point of buying the game and resetting to this time period (the most popular for the game) if you weren't going to at least visit some favorites. Are historical incidents from periods before our new starting point being left largely alone, yes because you only have so much space for fiction so leaving those as established fact where possible makes the most sense as it means you can later reference them if needed or if the desire so takes you can re-write what's needed and change things up on the fly.

Toturi is Emerald Champion, the emperor is retiring, Kachiko and Hotaru probably can't have a love child together. Among other setting and plot point changes, some mention above, others recently revealed or forthcoming.

1 minute ago, sndwurks said:

I am almost curious...

What are peoples thoughts about the all but canon confirmation about the oncoming Second Day of Thunder?

That it is coming, completely unsurprised.

How it comes? Very, very interested. I'm banking on Sotorii willingly becoming Fu Leng's host, and declaring himself Emperor opposing his brother, causing not just "Emperor or Empire?" drama, but also " Which Emperor?" problems.

2 minutes ago, sndwurks said:

I am almost curious...

What are peoples thoughts about the all but canon confirmation about the oncoming Second Day of Thunder?

Since the concept of the Second Day of Thunder is so integral to the setting I'm not surprised that it will be looming threat over the course of the game. The question will be how do we get there and what changes are possible due to the new setting. Ideally I hope it will be left as a back burner issue for as long as possible with the rising issues in the game being such that it can be the culmination of the first edition arc and possibly used as a suitable tipping point to establish a new order going into an eventual 2nd edition of the game when the time comes.

Just now, Schmoozies said:

Ideally I hope it will be left as a back burner issue for as long as possible with the rising issues in the game being such that it can be the culmination of the first edition arc and possibly used as a suitable tipping point to establish a new order going into an eventual 2nd edition of the game when the time comes.

Oh absolutely. There are years of stories to tell before we get there. 5 year anniversary tournament story should be 2nd Day of Thunder, at earliest.

Personally, I expect to see the Second Day of Thunder come at the end of the first five years. In specific, I am expecting "Children of the Empire", which is released in Q1 of 2019, to present the Empire just before the cusp of Hantei XXXVIII's last decree. That decree is going to trigger the Clan War, though exactly how is not clear. But it will start in the capital, be hopefully spectacularly violent, and lead to the death of Hantei 38th, and make a peaceful solution impossible. Kick out the central power structure, and make everything fall down.

The next "Flashpoint" storyline box will likely come in Q1 of 2021, and be basically "The Time of the Void" of the new edition, so showcasing the Empire as the Clan War is in full effect, everyone is at war with everyone, and the Shadowlands that have been brewing on the horizon have exploded all over the Empire, which will lead in to the Second Day of Thunder.

2 minutes ago, Hida Jitenno said:

Butterfly flapping its wings. It doesn't cause a tsunami directly beneath the butterfly, but only once it builds traveling to the other side of the world. You're judging that they haven't made significant, monumental changes (other than no Coup, no kidnapping of the Emperor's wife, change in status of Toshi Ranbo, which clans are going to war and why) in about a year, while looking at events that happened several years into AEG's timeline as "what's destined to happen, but with a girl instead."

Okay, let me try putting this another way...

They did not change anything in the setting, including one major character that was retconned into the setting later, up until the point that the Bloodspeakers ambushed the imperial caravan. Everything else in the setting is exactly as it was before that point. I have seen nothing that has been updated or altered in the setting other than a couple character gender swaps.

I don't see anything else in the setting that has been recognizable altered up to that singular event.

Ryoshun being a thing in the setting, being dead before he fell to earth, residing within the realm of the dead... those are all things that happened in the story before that Bloodspeaker ambush of the Imperial caravan. It is all within the part of the setting that FFG has thus far enshrined identically to the former storyline.

Having the 10th Kami being a character who resides solely within the realm of the dead meant that the character never had a meaningful impact on the setting and story other than a simple deus ex machina moment to resolve the Spirit Wars storyline and one bit at the end of the 4 Winds story arc where he just talked to a few characters.

Really, the character had so little impact that you could have substituted in a Fortune of Death and it wouldn't have changed anything.

Since FFG seems to have the policy of 0 alterations to the setting up to that divergent point in the timeline, then they are locked into Ryoshun being such a thing that if there is never a Spirit Wars story (and it might be best that there isn't, it had weird implications) then it is as good as if there is no 10th Kami at all because he can't really have an impact on the story.

9 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Since FFG seems to have the policy of 0 alterations to the setting up to that divergent point in the timeline, then they are locked into Ryoshun being such a thing that if there is never a Spirit Wars story (and it might be best that there isn't, it had weird implications) then it is as good as if there is no 10th Kami at all because he can't really have an impact on the story.

OR the divergence in the story that we've seen so far could lead to all sorts of shenanigans leading up to that point.

There are all sorts of ideas that could be used for Ryoshun, for example he fell in different part of the world and was raised separate from his siblings. Without the support and countering influence of his brothers and sisters he rose to power and his followers came to dominate the region that they resided in. Being a unique divine entity in the eyes of his followers a monotheistic church developed around him and his descendants have been the "head" of that church for 1,000 years. They have conquered their section of the world and are now spreading to new areas. The Unicorn could come into conflict with them in their holdings outside of the Empire and we see a conquering threat that forces the clans to unite against an impending invasion.

It's important to note in the RPG they DO mention Ryoshun, but that he has completely been forgotten to the mortal world, hence why Kachiko's story didn't include him.

I'm interested to see what it was Hotaru asked Kachiko to do...

31 minutes ago, Vutall said:

I'm interested to see what it was Hotaru asked Kachiko to do...

Something too ecchi to put it in a RPG sourcebook...

Ok, soooooo, for the layman such as myself, is the OP (and others) theorizing that a coup/rebellion/??? of some sort is being hinted at by the ‘interactions’ of Hotaru and Kachiko in this story?

6 minutes ago, LordBlunt said:

Ok, soooooo, for the layman such as myself, is the OP (and others) theorizing that a coup/rebellion/??? of some sort is being hinted at by the ‘interactions’ of Hotaru and Kachiko in this story?

I don't think that's what I'm getting. Maybe Hotaru asking Kachiko to use some of them Scorpion resources to have Satsume offed?