Just now, dbmeboy said:

Will do. Mind me asking what that form is for?

Tyler told me he'd send the answer in the morning.

See new post.

3 minutes ago, Bayushi Shunsuke said:

See new post.

Got it. Question I sent includes both the Ancestor's Strength vs Unleash question as well as Kaito Temple Protector. Just to cover both with 1 email. I'll get the response submitted sometime tomorrow, hopefully.

And my question apparently got lost in cyberspace. Fixed and confirmed that Tyler has it now, but probably no answer until tomorrow.

Ooorrrrrrrrrr; The answer is so simple that they aren’t firing off a single synapse in order to dignify a response.

Im kidding, I kid. ?

6 hours ago, LordBlunt said:

Ooorrrrrrrrrr; The answer is so simple that they aren’t firing off a single synapse in order to dignify a response.

Im kidding, I kid. ?

I mean, there's that too. But I did ask Tyler about it... ?

As promised:

Q:

Two questions:

1. What takes precedence if both My Ancestor's Strength and Unleash the Djinn are played in the same conflict?

2. If Kaito Temple Protector has set its base skill to a value, can the skill be further modified by honored/dishonored status or other cards (eg Fine Katana, Ornate Fan, etc)?

A:

1. My Ancestor’s Strength sets the base value, but Unleash the Djinn sets the absolute value. The absolute value (Djinn) will override the base value (My Ancestor’s Strength) regardless of which order they’re played in.

2. Kaito Temple Protector only sets its base skills, so additional modifiers (events, attachments, status tokens, etc) can still modify its skills.

So now we have the official name for the value that is neither printed nor base: "absolute value".

10 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

So now we have the official name for the value that is neither printed nor base: "absolute value".

Or at least a pseudo-official name. Tyler was in the same position we were trying to make it clear what the 2 different values were with official names "skill" and "base skill." Easier to make it clear which you're talking about if both terms have an adjective instead of just one of them.

Yeah, that's why I was calling it "final skill". I'm calling it official because Tyler said it.

So could someone explain to me if this is consistent with Way of the Lion?

im too old, dumb and lazy to figure it out myself.... and I’m at work. ?

53 minutes ago, dbmeboy said:

As promised:

Q:

Two questions:

1. What takes precedence if both My Ancestor's Strength and Unleash the Djinn are played in the same conflict?

2. If Kaito Temple Protector has set its base skill to a value, can the skill be further modified by honored/dishonored status or other cards (eg Fine Katana, Ornate Fan, etc)?

A:

1. My Ancestor’s Strength sets the base value, but Unleash the Djinn sets the absolute value. The absolute value (Djinn) will override the base value (My Ancestor’s Strength) regardless of which order they’re played in.

2. Kaito Temple Protector only sets its base skills, so additional modifiers (events, attachments, status tokens, etc) can still modify its skills.

~Tyler Parrott
Card Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

Since its from the horse's mouth I won't argue it but hopefully they put something to reflect this in the RRG as there is no reference to Absolute Value versus Base Skill and and under RAW the Set reference should still contradict this. Main issue is using the word Set seems to be a templating issue as the term is a defined effect which is in conflict with this ruling. Or they need to add a rule for Set Base Value that clarifies if can be modified after the effect.

5 minutes ago, LordBlunt said:

So could someone explain to me if this is consistent with Way of the Lion?

im too old, dumb and lazy to figure it out myself.... and I’m at work. ?

Way of the Lion doubles the base value (printed value) but doesn't Set any values (which is why you can double it again with multiples). In theory a Set effect would than replace those values if played.

5 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Since its from the horse's mouth I won't argue it but hopefully they put something to reflect this in the RRG as there is no reference to Absolute Value versus Base Skill and and under RAW the Set reference should still contradict this. Main issue is using the word Set seems to be a templating issue as the term is a defined effect which is in conflict with this ruling. Or they need to add a rule for Set Base Value that clarifies if can be modified after the effect.

I mean, the RRG does have a separate entry for "Base Value" and we've had long-standing ruling on modifying the base value being different than modifying the total/final/absolute value (Way of the Lion).

@LordBlunt - Consistent with Way of the Lion. WotL is a modifier of base skill. Ancestor's Strength would override it (ie they don't stack). Unleash would override either WotL or Ancestor's Strength.

3 minutes ago, dbmeboy said:

I mean, the RRG does have a separate entry for "Base Value" and we've had long-standing ruling on modifying the base value being different than modifying the total/final/absolute value (Way of the Lion).

As I said the issue is Set having an effect that precludes other modifiers effecting the card. Way of the Lion was never an issue as it doesn't Set the value it merely doubles the base. The ruling obviously stands as its from the design team however taken in a vacuum it actually is in contradiction to the printed rules.

Just now, Schmoozies said:

As I said the issue is Set having an effect that precludes other modifiers effecting the card. Way of the Lion was never an issue as it doesn't Set the value it merely doubles the base. The ruling obviously stands as its from the design team however taken in a vacuum it actually is in contradiction to the printed rules.

Set doesn't preclude other modifiers affecting the card, it precludes other (non-set) modifiers affecting the value being set. Base skill and skill are distinct values that can be modified separately (as established with Way of the Lion). This ruling is consistent with that (and would actually be inconsistent with Way of the Lion if ruled otherwise).

2 minutes ago, dbmeboy said:

Set doesn't preclude other modifiers affecting the card, it precludes other (non-set) modifiers affecting the value being set. Base skill and skill are distinct values that can be modified separately (as established with Way of the Lion). This ruling is consistent with that (and would actually be inconsistent with Way of the Lion if ruled otherwise).

Actually it doesn't since Way of the Lion is not a Set modifier and doubling the Base Value is simply a modifier as are other normal stat boost effects.

1 minute ago, Schmoozies said:

Actually it doesn't since Way of the Lion is not a Set modifier and doubling the Base Value is simply a modifier as are other normal stat boost effects.

Set modifiers are modifiers. They overrule all other non-set modifiers, but they are modifiers (basically, can be viewed as applying last, apply addition/subtraction, then doubling/halving, then set).

What Way of the Lion establishes is that base skill is a different value to modify than skill itself. Way of the Lion doubles base skill. So if you have an attacking Toturi who is honored, has had Banzai! played (with the kicker), and then play Way of the Lion, Toturi ends up with a Military skill of 19 because WotL modifies his Base Skill separately from the rest of the skill calculation (otherwise, you would apply the honored and Banzai! modifiers before the doubling modifier and have a Military skill of 26).

4 minutes ago, dbmeboy said:

Set modifiers are modifiers. They overrule all other non-set modifiers, but they are modifiers (basically, can be viewed as applying last, apply addition/subtraction, then doubling/halving, then set).

What Way of the Lion establishes is that base skill is a different value to modify than skill itself. Way of the Lion doubles base skill. So if you have an attacking Toturi who is honored, has had Banzai! played (with the kicker), and then play Way of the Lion, Toturi ends up with a Military skill of 19 because WotL modifies his Base Skill separately from the rest of the skill calculation (otherwise, you would apply the honored and Banzai! modifiers before the doubling modifier and have a Military skill of 26).

Actually the Rule book defines Base Skill as the Printed value of a card which is why Way of the Lion functions on it as it does.

1 minute ago, Schmoozies said:

Actually the Rule book defines Base Skill as the Printed value of a card which is why Way of the Lion functions on it as it does.

RRG is a little more nuanced than that.

Base Value - The value of a quantity before other modifiers are applied. For most quantities, it is also the printed value.

So things like Way of the Lion, My Ancestor's Strength, and Kaito Temple Protector modify the Base Value of a skill. The Base Value then represents the value of that skill before modifiers are applied. It is, admittedly, a little odd to be able to modify the value that's defined as being before modifiers are applied, but that's been the case since the core set. From observation, it appears that the terminology is used when the devs want to specify an order of operations (eg make WotL happen first, allow a set to go off and then be later modified).

With the new version of the RRG, we get an other layer of values: dueling values. Or maybe it's just an extra value like total skill for conflicts: dueling value = absolute dueling stat + dial.