In a battle this cards are played, both of them set the mil and pol values to a new value. What is the final value of the character affected by this both cards?

It's 3. My Ancestor's Strength sets the character's base skill, while Unleash the Djinn sets the current skill.

3 hours ago, Khudzlin said:

It's 3. My Ancestor's Strength sets the character's base skill, while Unleash the Djinn sets the current skill.

Per the RRG shouldn't it be the most recently applied one that overrides the previous.

◊◊ When a value is “set” to a specific number, the set modifier overrides all non-set modifiers (including any new non-set modifiers that are added during the duration of the set value). If multiple set modifiers are in conflict, the most recently applied set modifier takes precedence.

Shouldnt it be the card that was played first? Since both say their change lasts until the end of the conflict, any new modification wouldnt have an effect

53 minutes ago, RafaelNN said:

Shouldnt it be the card that was played first? Since both say their change lasts until the end of the conflict, any new modification wouldnt have an effect

See my post above as per the RRG the most recently played set effect should overrides older ones.

Except the cards aren't actually setting the same value. One is setting the base skill and one is setting the final skill. It's a weird interaction, but I agree with Khudzlin: Unleash wins.

21 minutes ago, dbmeboy said:

Except the cards aren't actually setting the same value. One is setting the base skill and one is setting the final skill. It's a weird interaction, but I agree with Khudzlin: Unleash wins.

Except that the RRG as I've quoted above, and quote again below with highlighted section for emphasis, specifically calls out that when two effects that are setting a value interact the last played effect takes precedence over the earlier played one. The fact that one is setting base and the other isn't doesn't actually matter as all the rules are looking at is which effect was played first as the later one than overrides it. All the reference to Base in the description does is establish the value, but there is nothing to override the Set restriction from earlier in regards to modifiers so the Set rule for modifiers would still trump other effects.

RRG page 11 - Modifiers

◊◊ When a value is “set” to a specific number, the set modifier overrides all non-set modifiers (including any new non-set modifiers that are added during the duration of the set value). If multiple set modifiers are in conflict, the most recently applied set modifier takes precedence.

RRG apge 3 - Base Value
The value of a quantity before other modifiers are applied. For most quantities, it is also the printed value.

24 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Except that the RRG as I've quoted above, and quote again below with highlighted section for emphasis, specifically calls out that when two effects that are setting a value interact the last played effect takes precedence over the earlier played one.

I think the premise that the two set values conflict is wrong. As the other poster says, one sets the base skill, one sets the final skill. I see no conflict that has to be solved by chronological order. They don't set the same value in the first place.

But the cards say the modified stat remains until the end of conflict. So if something new wpuld change it it has no effect instead

3 minutes ago, Ascarel said:

I think the premise that the two set values conflict is wrong. As the other poster says, one sets the base skill, one sets the final skill. I see no conflict that has to be solved by chronological order. They don't set the same value in the first place.

Base skill is irrelevant to the discussion however as all the Set rules look at is which card was played later as that overrides the previous value. Its the same reason why as I said even if you have other modifiers to consider the set base value that "Ancestor's" establishes if played after "Unleash" would override those modifiers as it is a Set effect and so applies after all other modifiers would be considered.

52 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Base skill is irrelevant to the discussion however as all the Set rules look at is which card was played later

Not exactly -- the condition for this is that they conflict ( If multiple set modifiers are in conflict, the most recently applied set modifier takes precedence ). What constitutes such conflict is not made explicit and an official clarification would be useful to everyone. But one thing is clear from that condition: multiple set-modifiers do not automatically conflict.

@Schmoozies Base skill vs final skill is the point here. They're separate values that can be modified separately. Base skill starts equal to printed skill and can be modified by effects that specifically affect base skill (like Way of the Lion, Bayushi Yunako and My Ancestor's Strength). Then, final skill starts off equal to base skill and can be modified by effects that don't specifically affect base skill (like honor status, attachments and effects like Unleash the Djinn). Since My Ancestor's Strength and Unleash the Djinn affect different values, they do not conflict. An exemple of conflicting set modifiers would be Wicked Tetsubō and Unleash the Djinn, since both affect final skill.

5 minutes ago, Ascarel said:

Not exactly -- the condition for this is that they conflict ( If multiple set modifiers are in conflict, the most recently applied set modifier takes precedence ). What constitutes such conflict is not made explicit and an official clarification would be useful to everyone. But one thing is clear from that condition: multiple set-modifiers do not automatically conflict.

They do in that all modifiers are meant to be applied simultaneously so Set effects become "active" on the character at the same time which is why they than do the sub-check of which was played first as that becomes overwritten. The only time they won't conflict with each other is if they are modifying different stats (so effects that each modify only Military, Political or Glory) separate from each other.

Base skill and final skill are different values, even if the latter normally depends on the former.

Just now, Khudzlin said:

@Schmoozies Base skill vs final skill is the point here. They're separate values that can be modified separately. Base skill starts equal to printed skill and can be modified by effects that specifically affect base skill (like Way of the Lion, Bayushi Yunako and My Ancestor's Strength). Then, final skill starts off equal to base skill and can be modified by effects that don't specifically affect base skill (like honor status, attachments and effects like Unleash the Djinn). Since My Ancestor's Strength and Unleash the Djinn affect different values, they do not conflict. An exemple of conflicting set modifiers would be Wicked Tetsubō and Unleash the Djinn, since both affect final skill.

Except that isn't stated anywhere in the rules. The section for modifiers only states that all non-set modifiers are applied simultaneously first doing addition/subtraction effects and than applying multipliers/halving effects. Set is its own sub modifier that says it overrides all other effects. There is no reference to calculate base stat than apply other set modifiers. Mr Ancestors Strength specifically refers to itself as a Set effect and than goes on to state that it sets the base skill to be equal to the values of the targeted card in the discard. At no time does the Base Skill rule override the rules for Set values so that rule takes precedence over other effects. Under your interpretation it would mean you could apply any number of additional effects after the fact which are also disallowed by the Set rule.

All that matters are the Modifier Rules which I will quote in full below as that is the only relevant section to the discussion. The Set rule in modifiers is what is determining the value and absent any specific reference in the RRG or a ruling to the contrary there is noting in the Base Value rules that would override that restriction. If you can point to such a ruling please do but otherwise the Set rule is the one that takes preeminence over the others.

RRG Page 11 - Modifiers
Some abilities may ask players to modify values. The game state constantly checks and (if necessary) updates the count of any variable quantity that is being modified.

Any time a new modifier is applied (or removed), the entire quantity is recalculated from the start, considering the unmodified base value and all active modifiers.
◊◊ The calculation of a value treats all modifiers as being applied simultaneously. However while performing the calculation, all additive and subtractive modifiers should
be calculated before doubling and/or halving modifiers are calculated.
◊◊ Fractional values are rounded up after all modifiers have been applied.
◊◊ When a value is “set” to a specific number, the set modifier overrides all non-set modifiers (including any new non-set modifiers that are added during the duration of the set value). If multiple set modifiers are in conflict, the most recently applied set modifier takes precedence.
◊◊ A quantity cannot be reduced so that it functions with a value below zero: a card cannot have negative icons, political or military skill, glory, traits, cost, or keywords. Negative modifiers that would take a value below zero can be applied, but, after all active modifiers have been applied, any resultant value below zero is treated as zero.

8 minutes ago, Khudzlin said:

Base skill and final skill are different values, even if the latter normally depends on the former.

And Final Skill is not a game term per the RRG.

2 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

And Final Skill is not a game term per the RRG.

Final skill is not a game term, per se, but it's being used in this discussion informally to help distinguish from base skill. The game terms are just skill and base skill...

Things that set base skill allow the (final) skill to be further modified (see Kaito Temple Protector for example). Things that set (final) skill override other modifications (unless another set effect is subsequently applied).

(Edited for clarity)

36 minutes ago, dbmeboy said:

Final skill is not a game term, per se, but it's being used in this discussion informally to help distinguish from base skill. The game terms are just skill and base skill...

Things that set base skill allow the (final) skill to be further modified (see Kaito Temple Protector for example). Things that set (final) skill override other modifications (unless another set effect is subsequently applied).

(Edited for clarity)

Except that the developer rulings actually state the opposite as the Set modifier from Kaito Protector overrides all other modifiers.

http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/index.php?/topic/39828-ruling-kaito-temple-protector-bayushi-yunako-set-vs-switch/

5 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Except that the developer rulings actually state the opposite as the Set modifier from Kaito Protector overrides all other modifiers.

http://www.cardgamedb.com/forums/index.php?/topic/39828-ruling-kaito-temple-protector-bayushi-yunako-set-vs-switch/

No, the developer ruled that the set base skill overruled switching base skills.

12 minutes ago, dbmeboy said:

No, the developer ruled that the set base skill overruled switching base skills.

“Set” overrides “non-set” modifiers, so once Kaito Temple Protector triggers its ability, its skills cannot be switched by Bayushi Yunako.

Put the relevant part in bold for emphasis. This is clearly stated to be a set modifier and overrides all other non-set modifiers as per the RRG. The ruling than confirms that once you "set" the modifier it can not be modified by any means thus again making the Base portion of the ability irrelevant to the Set portion.

17 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

“Set” overrides “non-set” modifiers, so once Kaito Temple Protector triggers its ability, its skills cannot be switched by Bayushi Yunako.

Put the relevant part in bold for emphasis. This is clearly stated to be a set modifier and overrides all other non-set modifiers as per the RRG. The ruling than confirms that once you "set" the modifier it can not be modified by any means thus again making the Base portion of the ability irrelevant to the Set portion.

Yes... set overrides non-set modifiers. But that is only relevant when 2 abilities are modifying the same thing. Yunako cannot switch Kaito Temple Protector's base skills because they've been set. Things that modify skill still work though (eg honored/dishonored, Fine Katana, Ornate Fan, etc).

For the original question, you have an ability modifying the base skill and an ability modifying the (total or final) skill. Not modifying the same thing so no conflict. No matter what the base skill is set to, Unleash ends up setting the skill to 3.

I've submitted the rules question to FFG, since it's clear we're not getting anywhere with the discussion.

15 minutes ago, dbmeboy said:

Yes... set overrides non-set modifiers. But that is only relevant when 2 abilities are modifying the same thing. Yunako cannot switch Kaito Temple Protector's base skills because they've been set. Things that modify skill still work though (eg honored/dishonored, Fine Katana, Ornate Fan, etc).

For the original question, you have an ability modifying the base skill and an ability modifying the (total or final) skill. Not modifying the same thing so no conflict. No matter what the base skill is set to, Unleash ends up setting the skill to 3.

I've submitted the rules question to FFG, since it's clear we're not getting anywhere with the discussion.

IF that were the case than there would be no issue with modifying the ability that has been set to base skill. The fact that the RRG and every example has shown that once a value is set to a value there is no way to change it except with another set effect should be evident. Point me to one instance anywhere in a card ruling or the RRG that specifies that an effect can modifiey a value after it has been set.

47 minutes ago, dbmeboy said:

I've submitted the rules question to FFG, since it's clear we're not getting anywhere with the discussion.

Please submiot questions and answers here:
https://form.jotform.co/82138997823875

27 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

IF that were the case than there would be no issue with modifying the ability that has been set to base skill. The fact that the RRG and every example has shown that once a value is set to a value there is no way to change it except with another set effect should be evident. Point me to one instance anywhere in a card ruling or the RRG that specifies that an effect can modifiey a value after it has been set.

I mean, I know better than most (as the long-time SWLCG rules guru) that announcement articles can contain rules errors, but there is this description of how Kaito Temple Protector works from the preview article.

1 minute ago, Bayushi Shunsuke said:

Please submiot questions and answers here:
https://form.jotform.co/82138997823875

Will do. Mind me asking what that form is for?

Tyler told me he'd send the answer in the morning.