3 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

That was the argument for the drop in quality from The Clone Wars to Rebels . This just takes it even lower.

And to an extent, I think us grognards knew Rebels would have to age up from early on. We looked at it and said "Hmmmmm.... They are going to have to dispose of those two by the time this thing ends...." Which meant getting the audience to a point where they could handle it.

Resistance is lucky in that there is less established material to match. So Kaz's future is more open ended. He can walk off into destiny at the end instead of getting blown up or kidnapped by space whales...

But you get me thinking...

Can a Star Wars kids show even be made these days?

Now of course the answer is "yes" but what I mean is we're in an age of accepted and extensive fandom, where every decision will be catalogued and reconciled into a single canon. When Ewok adventures, or Droids were on the air, that was kinda it. There were a few novels and such, but it wasn't being compiled and agragated like today. If you needed Wicket to interact with a magical sentient dung heap, you could do it and no one would care.

Today if you had Wicket find a crashed X-wing, and accidentally used a T-70 instead of a T-65 three years before the battle of Endor, the fandom would expect you to reconcile it. They'd ask you about it at Celebration, try and get an author to write a novel about a time traveling Poe becoming his own father, demanding a corrected version in the Blu-ray, and generally rail about you "assaulting" their childhood.

And that's where I think part of the trouble is. Releasing a "Star Wars" something on mass media today means making a "canon" story. If you make a kids show that isn't willing to flush canon and not worry about it, you're going to have to age-up it as it attracts fanboys of all ages, and by nature you want their old grognard money too.

If you flush canon, or even do something against what canon is expected to be... You're going to get beat up.

8 hours ago, Ghostofman said:

And that's where I think part of the trouble is. Releasing a "Star Wars" something on mass media today means making a "canon" story. If you make a kids show that isn't willing to flush canon and not worry about it, you're going to have to age-up it as it attracts fanboys of all ages, and by nature you want their old grognard money too.

But that's exactly what The Clone Wars and Rebels did. They jettisoned the Expanded Universe stuff and did their own thing. And Rebels is hardly an old show, it's been on the air until half a year ago. So asking whether it can be done seems a strange question.

On 8/17/2018 at 11:27 AM, HappyDaze said:

I see that the art style continues to get worse.

It looks like a cross between traditional hand animation and cgi, weird, I guess it means that this one is targeted at kids.

10 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

It looks like a cross between traditional hand animation and cgi, weird, I guess it means that this one is targeted at kids.

Although I don't disagree about this being targeted at kids, what about it blending traditional and CGI animate specifically makes it kid-targeted?

1 minute ago, Swordbreaker said:

Although I don't disagree about this being targeted at kids, what about it blending traditional and CGI animate specifically makes it kid-targeted?

It looks like an art style that would appeal more to kids than adults, brighter colors, unrealistic shadowing, traditional cgi tends to get those things more realistic/darker (color)

4 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

But that's exactly what The Clone Wars and Rebels did. They jettisoned the Expanded Universe stuff and did their own thing. And Rebels is hardly an old show, it's been on the air until half a year ago. So asking whether it can be done seems a strange question.

The EU has been jettisoned (good) but it's just being replaced by this new canon creature.

It's new, different, and usually better, but it's still a mostly consistent unified narrative.

And that's more what I mean. Making a dedicated kids show means working on a level where you can have characters and stories so goofy that they may not feel right as part of that larger narrative. If you do that today without slapping some kind of disclaimer (like a Legends header or something) you're going to get slammed by the stuperfans and there will be pressure to change, update, cancel or whatever.

And that's part of my question.

With Clone Wars and Rebels, they attracted kids, but also it was part of the larger narrative, attracting older fans, generating larger ratings numbers, but fouling up the demographic targeting.

If you make something that is childish, goofy, that locks in that targetted demographic, but is still part of that larger narrative, will it still work, or will it just become a problem when it's gross ratings come out worse than Clone Wars and Rebels because only the kids want to watch it. Not to mention toxic fandom creeping in, being upset that Wicket is talking to a sentient dung heap, instead of just accepting it's a kids show and dropping it.

19 minutes ago, Ghostofman said:

If you make something that is childish, goofy, that locks in that targetted demographic, but is still part of that larger narrative, will it still work, or will it just become a problem when it's gross ratings come out worse than Clone Wars and Rebels because only the kids want to watch it. Not to mention toxic fandom creeping in, being upset that Wicket is talking to a sentient dung heap, instead of just accepting it's a kids show and dropping it.

Considering how many adults watch anything from Sailor Moon to Voltron, I don't think this is going to be an issue. SW had its issues with toxic fandom at least since the prequels, and that hasn't stopped the movies or the shows from succeeding.

6 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

It looks like a cross between traditional hand animation and cgi, weird, I guess it means that this one is targeted at kids.

6 hours ago, Swordbreaker said:

Although I don't disagree about this being targeted at kids, what about it blending traditional and CGI animate specifically makes it kid-targeted?

6 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

It looks like an art style that would appeal more to kids than adults, brighter colors, unrealistic shadowing, traditional cgi tends to get those things more realistic/darker (color)

If you’ve ever seen the movie Appleseed , you’d know that that’s not the case. Appleseed used “cell shaded” anime style 3D CG for all of the characters, and was certainly not a “kids’ cartoon “.

32 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

If you’ve ever seen the movie Appleseed , you’d know that that’s not the case. Appleseed used “cell shaded” anime style 3D CG for all of the characters, and was certainly not a “kids’ cartoon “.

What does that have to do with refuting the comment that the art style seems designed to appeal to children?

Just now, EliasWindrider said:

What does that have to do with refuting the comment that the art style seems designed to appeal to children?

Because “cell shaded” 3D CG animation isn’t about appealing to children. It’s simply used to capture a certain aesthetic, primarily one that aficionados of traditional 2D animation, and anime in particular , find appealing. It’s not about appealing to kids’ sensibilities.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Because “cell shaded” 3D CG animation isn’t about appealing to children. It’s simply used to capture a certain aesthetic, primarily one that aficionados of traditional 2D animation, and anime in particular , find appealing. It’s not about appealing to kids’ sensibilities.

Regardless of the history and past uses, what about this artstyle as depicted in the trailer makes it seem like it won't be especially appealing to kids?

11 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Regardless of the history and past uses, what about this artstyle as depicted in the trailer makes it seem like it won't be especially appealing to kids?

It’s not an issue of whether or not it will appeal to kids. It’s a matter of whether that is the point of using the cell shaded anime style CG. That is what I and @Swordbreaker are refuting. The use of cell shaded CGI is not specifically designed for appealing to kids as a demographic. It’s designed to capture a traditional Anime aesthetic.

21 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Regardless of the history and past uses, what about this artstyle as depicted in the trailer makes it seem like it won't be especially appealing to kids?

For me the art style is more money than audience. Cel shading allows you to all but eliminate texture artists. And render time goes down dramatically too. I actually use cel shading at work to make illustrations that look good without spending days doing it.

To me the indicator of a more kid-focused target audience is the racing theme. It allows high action without the traditional violence.

Of course it's all speculation for now. Maybe we'll get Cad Bane shooting people in the face again.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s not an issue of whether or not it will appeal to kids. It’s a matter of whether that is the point of using the cell shaded anime style CG. That is what I and @Swordbreaker are refuting. The use of cell shaded CGI is not specifically designed for appealing to kids as a demographic. It’s designed to capture a traditional Anime aesthetic.

Regardless of the "original" intent behind its origin,

traditional animation largely targeted kids over adults (i.e. Saturday morning cartoons had comercials for toys and sugar cereal rather than new cars when I was a kid), so the ascetic seems to preferentially target kids even if it has been used against type in other circumstances before. I also believe that Disney is to shrewd an marketing machine to not know that the style will be ESPECIALLY appealing to children and I generally see their actions as a cash grab.

"We want to make money selling toys and we want to hook the next generation of fans, so make the next show extra appealing to kids Dave."

5 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Regardless of the "original" intent behind its origin,

traditional animation largely targeted kids over adults (i.e. Saturday morning cartoons had comercials for toys and sugar cereal rather than new cars when I was a kid), so the ascetic seems to preferentially target kids even if it has been used against type in other circumstances before. I also believe that Disney is to shrewd an marketing machine to not know that the style will be ESPECIALLY appealing to children and I generally see their actions as a cash grab.

"We want to make money selling toys and we want to hook the next generation of fans, so make the next show extra appealing to kids Dave."

And that is what is wrong. Cell shaded CG appeals to adults just as much, if not more than kids. The producers of Appleseed didn’t use cell shaded CG to appeal to kids. They did it to capture the classic “Anime” aesthetic that old school anime aficionados prefer. That movie is absolutely not suitable for children, given how violent it is. This is the same reasoning behind the art of Resistance . They’re trying to capture the classic Anime aesthetic. That is the purpose of using cell shading. It’s not because it’s inherently designed to preferentially appeal to children over adults. It’s not.

27 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And that is what is wrong. Cell shaded CG appeals to adults just as much, if not more than kids. The producers of Appleseed didn’t use cell shaded CG to appeal to kids. They did it to capture the classic “Anime” aesthetic that old school anime aficionados prefer. That movie is absolutely not suitable for children, given how violent it is. This is the same reasoning behind the art of Resistance . They’re trying to capture the classic Anime aesthetic. That is the purpose of using cell shading. It’s not because it’s inherently designed to preferentially appeal to children over adults. It’s not.

Bright colors are especially appealing to children in a way the cgi with realistic shadowing of the clone wars is not

2 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Bright colors are especially appealing to children in a way the cgi with realistic shadowing of the clone wars is not

But cell shading, in and of itself is not specifically designed to be appealing to kids over adults. That’s my point, as I pointed out with the example of Appleseed . The use of cell shading is strictly about capturing that traditional “Anime” aesthetic, nothing more, nothing less. It’s not being used specifically as a means to target one demographic over another.

Cell shading may not be inherently aimed at children, but the specific implantation we see here certainly screams kids to me.

9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

But cell shading, in and of itself is not specifically designed to be appealing to kids over adults. That’s my point, as I pointed out with the example of Appleseed . The use of cell shading is strictly about capturing that traditional “Anime” aesthetic, nothing more, nothing less. It’s not being used specifically as a means to target one demographic over another.

You're the one who threw out the term "shell shading" in response to my original post citing bright colors and unrealistic shadowing

8 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

It looks like an art style that would appeal more to kids than adults, brighter colors, unrealistic shadowing, traditional cgi tends to get those things more realistic/darker (color)

So introducing the term cell shading in response to my comment seems to have been a mistake on your part.

24 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Bright colors are especially appealing to children in a way the cgi with realistic shadowing of the clone wars is not

I wouldn't call ANYTHING about the Clone Wars aesthetic realistic. That show was stylized as ****.

Well, this is already better animated than the 2016/17 Berserk adaption.

12 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I wouldn't call ANYTHING about the Clone Wars aesthetic realistic. That show was stylized as ****.

Shadowing was *more* realistic, more than "zero" isn't hard

23 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

You're the one who threw out the term "shell shading" in response to my original post citing bright colors and unrealistic shadowing

So introducing the term cell shading in response to my comment seems to have been a mistake on your part.

The art style being used in Resistance is called “Cell Shaded 3D CGI”. That is the proper term for that style So no, it was not a mistake. My point is that the style was not inherently designed to appeal to children over adults. It is a style used for many projects, including ones specifically targeted towards adults, as exemplified by Appleseed. It is not an inherently Kid focused style.

13 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Shadowing was *more* realistic, more than "zero" isn't hard

But it wasn't realistic at all, it was super stylized. Sure, it looked very different form what we've seen in this trailer, but not in a manner approaching reality.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The art style being used in Resistance is called “Cell Shaded 3D CGI”. That is the proper term for that style So no, it was not a mistake. My point is that the style was not inherently designed to appeal to children over adults. It is a style used for many projects, including ones specifically targeted towards adults, as exemplified by Appleseed. It is not an inherently Kid focused style.

Was it or was it not a mistake for you to associate my comment about "bright colors and unrealistic shadowing" with "cell shading"? Are they equivalent or not? If they are not equivalent, then you failed at communicating and made a mistake by mis-associating them.