This notion that Rokugan must "accept us as we are" is Kamoko's argument - which Altansarnai repeatedly rejected until Kamoko brought Ikoma Akari, ready to commit jigai, in front of Altansarnai. The champion is shocked to learn that Ikoma Anakazu even has a wife, much less does she know anything about Anakazu's personal character for faithfulness to his spouse or Akari's own feelings. Altansarnai has no idea that Anakazu is making a personal sacrifice that risks Lion's relationship with Phoenix, a clan opposing Unicorn on the issue of meishodo, on the very eve of the new Lion champion's wedding to Isawa Kaede! Altansarnai has been kept in the darkabout all these crucial facts so that Kamoko can figuratively punch her champion in her sore spot, her love for Iuchi Daiyu. It worked and Altansarnai immediatley did a 180 degree flip on her opinion about the future of her clan vis-a-vis the Lion.

Shono is absolutely correct to feel ashamed of his mother.

My opinion is that Ide are really failing the Unicorn repeatedly. First they don't properly advise Altansarnai on the peace treaty. They perhaps could have brokered a better deal, but backing out now just looks like they are spitting in the Lion's face. Then Ide Tadaji really does nothing to deflate the meishodo issues. I feel like we need another Ide centric fiction to help give us a better understanding of the Ide and what kind of pressure they are under. I really wouldn't want to be Tadaji right now.

1 minute ago, Manchu said:

That's Kamoko's argument - which Altansarnai repeatedly rejected until Kamoko brought Ikoma Akari, ready to commit jigai, in front of Altansarnai. The champion is shocked to learn that Ikoma Anakazu even has a wife, much less does she know anything about Anakazu's personal character for faithfulness to his spouse or Akari's own feelings. Her courtiers have hidden from Altansarnai has no idea that Anakazu is making a personal sacrifice that risks Lion's relationship with Phoenix, a clan opposing Unicorn on the issue of meishodo, on the very eve of the new Lion champion's wedding to Isawa Kaede! Altansarnai has been kept in the darkabout all these crucial facts so that Kamoko can figuratively punch her champion in her sore spot, her love for Iuchi Daiyu. It worked and Altansarnai immediatley did a 180 degree flip on her opinion about the future of her clan vis-a-vis the Lion.

Shono is absolutely correct to feel ashamed of his mother.

Ah Manchu with another of your its everyone's fault but the Lion;s conspiracies. From what we know of Kamoko at this point she is an Utaku Battlemaiden who has been assigned to the Champion but we have had no confirmation as to her exact rank in the Clan. She is dispatched as a messenger to the Capital on the eve of battle which makes it less likely that she is of such rank that the Unicorn army will be disadvantaged by her absence and lends more credence to her being of middling rank at best.

Further the idea that those within the clan would be conspiring against their own champion for no advantage is absurd. Since Kamoko's entire stance is that the Unicorn need to maintain their traditions and stand firm the path of cultural assimilation that giving in represents how does inserting Shono (who if anything seems more pro-Rokugani traditions than his mother) serve that conspiracy.

The only sticking point is how the Ide, the great traders of the clan, managed to botch the deal as poorly as they did since at everyturn it was the Unicorn conceding points to the Lion for no actual gain.

31 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

The conversation has charged in a different direction at very high speed since you posted this, but: the difference I see is that the Crane might be trying to steal the Yasuki provinces one day, but the next day they might be the ally bending their diplomatic talents toward helping you get something you need. The Scorpion might be up in your business, but they're supposed to be antagonists . That is literally their job. (And hey: sometimes they're up in somebody else's business and offering you the fruits of their efforts, to help you get something you need.)

Whereas the Lion are almost never the military ally bailing out somebody else in their time of crisis. Other clans band together against them, but how often do you see them offering their assistance to Clan A against Clan B? I won't say it never happens . . . but because they're such a huge stonking force, the calculus rarely seems to work out that way, unless it's an external invasion that causes the whole Empire to join hands. Which is why they wind up having a reputation as bullies: they're frequently the one picking the fight, instead of the one standing up for somebody else being bullied.

I would say the Lion act as a force of military strength as the Scorpion work for political strength. They exist to create a focal point of the military in Rokugan

32 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

25 minutes ago, Manchu said:

This notion that Rokugan must "accept us as we are" is Kamoko's argument - which Altansarnai repeatedly rejected until Kamoko brought Ikoma Akari, ready to commit jigai, in front of Altansarnai.

Not at all. Literally, the first phrase of Altansarnai in the fiction is ““The name-magic of meishōdō is the tradition of our people.” [...] “No matter what the Phoenix shugenja say, it is ours to master and ours to control.”

After that, goes a conversation about the role of the Unicorn in Rokugan, that ends with: “The Unicorn don’t leave anything behind, Doji-san. Particularly anything that makes us strong, or has saved our lives as often as meishōdō. The Empire will simply have to embrace pragmatism. It will have to accept our curved swords.”

The turning point for Altansarnai is knowing that another human being was going to suffer so much just for the sake of tradition. You can say this moment is like an epiphany to her: They were willing to make sacrifices to fit in old Rokugan, but now she realizes that’s not their job. Their job is to change Rokugan by fitting as they are.

4 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Not at all. Literally, the first phrase of Altansarnai in the fiction is ““The name-magic of meishōdō is the tradition of our people.” [...] “No matter what the Phoenix shugenja say, it is ours to master and ours to control.”

After that, goes a conversation about the role of the Unicorn in Rokugan, that ends with: “The Unicorn don’t leave anything behind, Doji-san. Particularly anything that makes us strong, or has saved our lives as often as meishōdō. The Empire will simply have to embrace pragmatism. It will have to accept our curved swords.”

The turning point for Altansarnai is knowing that another human being was going to suffer so much just for the sake of tradition. You can say this moment is like an epiphany to her: They were willing to make sacrifices to fit in old Rokugan, but now she realizes that’s not their job. Their job is to change Rokugan by fitting as they are.

Good luck. Dragon has been around forever demonstrating how awesome minding your own business and letting people be themselves is but Rokugan still hasn't caught on.

5 minutes ago, Waywardpaladin said:

Good luck. Dragon has been around forever demonstrating how awesome minding your own business and letting people be themselves is but Rokugan still hasn't caught on.

Well, maybe if you actually went and tell that to people, instead of just waiting for them to spontaneously realize it...

36 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Well, maybe if you actually went and tell that to people, instead of just waiting for them to spontaneously realize it...

We thought everyone would come to our mountain resorts and see! But I guess Togashi could have made the High House of Light more accessible.... Maybe an escalator?

47 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Well, maybe if you actually went and tell that to people, instead of just waiting for them to spontaneously realize it...

You can't push people into enlightenment. They have to find it on their own.

We know that Kamoko has a personal motive to incite a war against the Lion. We know that she is Altansarnai's confidant and that she has argued the same points she makes in Curved Swords to Altansarnai many times before, to no avail. We know she is the one who brought Akari before Altansarnai.

I have no idea what you mean by "for no advantage." The advantage, from the viewpoint of gaijin hardliners is entrenching Unicorn chauvinism. They are fighting an internal battle as to whether Unicorn will seek to fit in or instead seek to change everyone else. They were losing that battle until Kamoko brought Akari before Altansarnai to call into question Altansarnai's love for Iuchi Daiyu. That is the button Kamoko pushes that actually touches a nerve. That was the whole point of the otherwise unnecessary audience.

3 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

Ah Manchu with another of your its everyone's fault but the Lion;s conspiracies. From what we know of Kamoko at this point she is an Utaku Battlemaiden who has been assigned to the Champion but we have had no confirmation as to her exact rank in the Clan. She is dispatched as a messenger to the Capital on the eve of battle which makes it less likely that she is of such rank that the Unicorn army will be disadvantaged by her absence and lends more credence to her being of middling rank at best .

Just to clarify, Kamoko is the commander of the Utaku Battle Maidens. It’s mentioned in “Flying Chariot, Standing”:

Utaku Kamoko had ridden hard all the way to Otosan Uchi, charged with delivering news directly to the Emperor from the Unicorn Clan Champion herself, Shinjo Altansarnai.
She was not at all pleased to discover that a samurai, even the commander of the feared Battle Maidens of the Unicorn , would not be permitted to address the Emperor directly.

4 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Just to clarify, Kamoko is the commander of the Utaku Battle Maidens. It’s mentioned in “Flying Chariot, Standing”:

Utaku Kamoko had ridden hard all the way to Otosan Uchi, charged with delivering news directly to the Emperor from the Unicorn Clan Champion herself, Shinjo Altansarnai.
She was not at all pleased to discover that a samurai, even the commander of the feared Battle Maidens of the Unicorn , would not be permitted to address the Emperor directly.

I stand corrected on that point.

17 hours ago, Manchu said:

Interesting point regarding "modern readers." It seems a lot of L5R fans are not especially sympathetic to the actual culture of Rokugan.

Nope. I'm sympathetic to many of the characters , but the culture is usually lawful neutral at best, often straddling the line to lawful evil.

8 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Nope. I'm sympathetic to many of the characters , but the culture is usually lawful neutral at best, often straddling the line to lawful evil.

Yeah, as I said before, L5R writers traditionally tend to struggle with the setting because nobody dares to cut down the sacred cow of Wick-fluff.

16 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Yeah, as I said before, L5R writers traditionally tend to struggle with the setting because nobody dares to cut down the sacred cow of Wick-fluff.

I"m not entirely sure what that was supposed to mean.

But to be clear, I wasn't saying that a flawed culture equals flawed writing. In fact, I think it gives a lot of great opportunities for conflict between what we, the readers, think of as right, and what the culture of Rokugan considers right.

6 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

But to be clear, I wasn't saying that a flawed culture equals flawed writing. In fact, I think it gives a lot of great opportunities for conflict between what we, the readers, think of as right, and what the culture of Rokugan considers right.

1

The setting isn't supposed to be this bad, and the values discrepancy should be a lot more subtle.

For example, this story could have used some mutual teasing like Mitsuko constantly referring to Shono as "husband", and the ending should have been more bittersweet and less angry. More positive light and hope, less suffering, so the reader can go "wow, it is different but nice" rather than "3edgy5me".

8 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

The setting isn't supposed to be this bad, and the values discrepancy should be a lot more subtle.

You mean like killing a peasant for touching a katana?

Or the bit where almost nobody we read about gets to decide if or whom they marry?

Or the bit where anyone from anywhere else is killed on sight, by law?

Or the rigid, inflexible caste system, dictated by birth?

Or the whole thing about openly showing emotions being so heavily discouraged that an entire section of the lowest social caste exists purely to allow samurai to actually relax in their company?

2 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

You mean like killing a peasant for touching a katana?

Or the bit where almost nobody we read about gets to decide if or whom they marry?

Or the bit where anyone from anywhere else is killed on sight, by law?

Or the rigid, inflexible caste system, dictated by birth?

Or the whole thing about openly showing emotions being so heavily discouraged that an entire section of the lowest social caste exists purely to allow samurai to actually relax in their company?

These are just some examples of the sacred cow Wick-fluff I mentioned above, thank you.

I think your position is starting to become more clear to me AtoMaki. I'm gonna be honest I was confused as to your complaints up until now. You want a more idealized Rokugan? One that washes away the more dirty aspects of the historical source material the setting is drawing from? Do you think that would make for a better story? I mean a lot of that stuff is tied into the celestial order, which is sort of a pillar of the setting. Also it would further remove it from feeling like a Kurosawa film, which I think is a big draw for a lot of fans.

33 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

You mean like killing a peasant for touching a katana?

Or the bit where almost nobody we read about gets to decide if or whom they marry?

Or the bit where anyone from anywhere else is killed on sight, by law?

Or the rigid, inflexible caste system, dictated by birth?

Or the whole thing about openly showing emotions being so heavily discouraged that an entire section of the lowest social caste exists purely to allow samurai to actually relax in their company?

14 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

These are just some examples of the sacred cow Wick-fluff I mentioned above, thank you.

Yeah, those are for the most part actual true historical context things for feudal Japaneses society.

5 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Yeah, those are for the most part actual true historical context things for feudal Japaneses society.

1

AFAIK the only thing that was real in feudal Japan among those was arranged marriages being common. The katana-touching was complicated (mostly because there was no such thing as 'katana' as we know it), killing people was even more complicated, the caste system was all over the place, and the concept of On did not catch traction until the great samurai revisionism of Interwar Japan.

That's the thing though. L5R is more concerned with romanticized version of what samurais were and life they had rather than realistic version

The point is that you can have not-so-realistic samurai without the grim and edgy clutter.

32 minutes ago, phillos said:

One that washes away the more dirty aspects of the historical source material the setting is drawing from?

The dirty aspects of the historical source material were cowardice, treachery, backstabbing, rebellion, even more treachery, coward backstabbing amidst a rebellion, incompetence (the tragically funny kind), subterfuge, some extra bits of treachery, and general chaos and mayhem.

So yeah, I'm more up to let go the more dirty aspects of the Generation X mindset the setting is drawing from, because it isn't the 90's anymore, and I'm fairly sure that L5R has tapped out the Gen X crowd.

If your reaction to an oposing party's wish to renegotiate a treaty is to attack them, then you are being obstinate and jingoistic.

There is no such thing as a good war, especially with a famine going on.