55 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Well, if we go there, my concerns as far as this story goes are more about the Lion being portrayed as kinda villainous.

Surely you don't take issue with the fact that the clan that's been spoiling for a war is portrayed as, well... spoiling for a war? Literally every agreement we've seen the Lion enter into thus far has been in the name of keeping them from throwing down with the other party. Lion are jerks in this fashion, and always have been. But villainous?

I mean, our leading lady is a wholly sympathetic figure from the way this tale is structured- a woman in an impossible situation who chooses honor over her own broken heart (and it's pretty clear that she and Shono were more than happy with their betrothal).

As far as the leadership decisions that put her in that situation? The Lion's blatantly aggressive maneuvering is a matter of record, not just in this story, but in all stories thus far- but note that even such bloodthirsty maniacs as the worst of the Lion still needed a pretext to let slip the dogs of war- the Unicorn did break their agreement- arguments about shady Ikoma notwithstanding, the Unicorn agreed to the deal in the name of peace. Break the agreement? You break any expectation of peace.

I'm not sure I agree that the Lion have been portrayed especially villainous compared to the other clans (antagonistic maybe). From the Lion's perspective they've been wronged by their neighbors continuously. They maintain the largest military force in Rokugan so when dealing with the other clans they seek to use that to their advantage. I think that's to be expected. To the other clans that can be seen as warmongering or bullying, but I'm not sure it's entirely wrong to portray the Lion that way. They are hardly the most villainous thing going on in the empire right now. All their actions (that we know of) so far have been completely legal and out in the open. Also they've all been in service of regaining lands that they feel belong to them (and they have a reasonable argument). In comparison have you seen what Kuni Yori is up to down South? The Dragon clan are acting super shady. Also those ronin the Crane have been hiring certainly aren't giving them a good name. If Matsu Tsuko was leading the Crane army those ronin would have been executed on the spot as we've seen demonstrated in her own fiction. On top of all that the Lion have Toturi and Kaede in clan and so far they've been portray as almost de facto white hats.

28 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Having ulterior motives during a fight is not very hero-like by Rokugani standards, for example. This isn't even an ambush or clever use of subterfuge, something that can be a display of virtue in the right situation, but true crapmixing that would make the worst of the Scorpion proud. In fact, the Lion is pretty darn Scorpion-like throughout the whole story.

Okay, cool. Like I said, I was just wondering what prompted you to say that. Not saying I agree or disagree with you, but it's an interesting observation...thanks!

16 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I mean, our leading lady is a wholly sympathetic figure from the way this tale is structured- a woman in an impossible situation who chooses honor over her own broken heart (and it's pretty clear that she and Shono were more than happy with their betrothal).

Villains can be sympathetic, actually (the case of the 'anti-villain').

@phillos : Yeah, as I said, the Great Clans in L5R tend to get a lot of flack in this department.

2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Villains can be sympathetic, actually (the case of the 'anti-villain').

... But is she portrayed as a villain? She's certainly no worse than the Unicorn who ride in with superior numbers to crush her little contingent, and at no point does she enjoy what's going on.

2 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Yeah, as I said, the Great Clans in L5R tend to get a lot of flack in this department.

To add to @phillos 's list (which covered aspects of Crab, Crane, and Dragon quasi-villainy):

The Phoenix Master of Earth is dabbling in dark areas of conventional magic to the extent that the Clan Champion has the idea that he should maybe be watched. The Phoenix are concealing a major spiritual problem from the empire out of basic self-interest.

The Crab have cut a deal with the Mantis essentially attempting to legitimize what amount to pirate raids on the Crane coasts in the name of getting access to Crane jade. Sure they have their reasons, but... that's shady as ****.

The Scorpion are... Scorpion.

The Unicorn have demonstrated either bureaucratic ineptitude or willful disregard for the consequences of their actions. They have knowingly abrogated an agreement made in the name of peace. At least one Unicorn (the Ide Daimyo's bodyguard) is shown as spoiling for a fight with the Lion because bushi gonna bushi.

Well, if all of the clans always did the most sensible thing in every situation, were transparent with one another and just focused on the effective and efficient governance of Rokugan, the fictional citizens of that Empire would be way better. We, on the other hand, would have no interesting stories to tell.

I feel like there's always been a difficulty baked into the Lion, which is that their main shtick -- war -- almost always requires them to be in aggressive conflict with other clans. The Phoenix can be religious and scholarly and sometimes that will bring them into opposition with someone else, but not always; the Crane can use their diplomatic powers in an antagonistic way, but also for alliance. Etc. But Rokugan's isolationism means that 98% of the time, the only people for the Lion to be fighting are other Rokugani . So when there isn't a massive rebellion or external invasion in the offing, the only people for the Lion to be fighting are their neighbors. And since the Lion are so good at war, it doesn't make sense for everybody else to be constantly trying to attack them . . . so the only way to showcase one of their signature skills is for them to be belligerent toward people who are theoretically loyal subjects of the same emperor they serve. And it's hard to make that look sympathetic.

(Now I'm thinking . . . if I ever run another L5R campaign, I may change things so that the Lion are a small clan, not one of the biggest, and sitting on some valuable resources. That way it makes sense for other people to attack them, and their military awesomeness is about their training and discipline and ingenuity making up for being outnumbered in every fight.)

19 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

... But is she portrayed as a villain? She's certainly no worse than the Unicorn who ride in with superior numbers to crush her little contingent, and at no point does she enjoy what's going on.

Ironically enough, the Unicorn did give her the (honorable) chance to completely circumvent their numerical superiority, but she declined it so that she could complete the Lion ploy.

Just now, DGLaderoute said:

Well, if all of the clans always did the most sensible thing in every situation, were transparent with one another and just focused on the effective and efficient governance of Rokugan, the fictional citizens of that Empire would be way better. We, on the other hand, would have no interesting stories to tell.

White-on-white conflict is a rich source of interesting stories. There is a unique tragedy in having "true heroes" fight each other, especially if it is played straight and the warring sides don't even try to vilify each other and remain "true heroes" until the bloody end and beyond.

@Kinzen : To be honest, the Lion could lend a helping hand to the Crab and battle the Shadowlands if they want to keep their blades sharp. Also, I can faintly remember an Akodo quote about the finest victory being the one where no weapons are drawn, so being the militaristic clan should not necessarily translate into being warmongers.

19 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

White-on-white conflict is a rich source of interesting stories. There is a unique tragedy in having "true heroes" fight each other, especially if it is played straight and the warring sides don't even try to vilify each other and remain "true heroes" until the bloody end and beyond.

That's still conflict, and conflict (the basis of stories) has to come from somewhere. One could argue (in fact, I think it has been argued, earlier in this thread) that all conflict in Rokugan is "white on white"...at least from the perspective of each clan. There's a certain amount of righteousness to the clans' actions throughout the game, even when they're in conflict and both sides can't possibly be the "good guys". And they often DON'T vilify one another, treating worthy enemies with honor and respect (as long as they're part of the Celestial Order, of course, and not gaijin, Shadowlands monstrosities, etc.)

Again, I don't really want to get too far into an actual debate about this; that was never my intent. Rather, I'm interested (as a writer, and as a fan of the setting) in the perspectives others have of the stories, and why they have them.

30 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Also, I can faintly remember an Akodo quote about the finest victory being the one where no weapons are drawn, so being the militaristic clan should not necessarily translate into being warmongers  .

Yeah, but the largest family in Lion clan (heck, in Rokugan) is Matsu. And we all know their founder's personality. So... it IS possible, but highly improbable

46 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

@Kinzen : To be honest, the Lion could lend a helping hand to the Crab and battle the Shadowlands if they want to keep their blades sharp. Also, I can faintly remember an Akodo quote about the finest victory being the one where no weapons are drawn, so being the militaristic clan should not necessarily translate into being warmongers.

Helping out the Crab has happened from time to time, or at least been offered. But if the Lion did that regularly, then from a setting perspective they'd just be a clone of the Crab.

And I agree that being militaristic doesn't necessarily mean being warmongers! But again . . . from a story perspective, if you constantly hear about how the Lion have the best armies, but you never see them go to war, then it isn't very convincing. Like if you always heard the Scorpion were sneaky and underhanded, but they never did anything really dishonorable, or the Phoenix were supposed to have great shugenja, but they solved all their problems without calling on the kami. The Lion armies are Chekhov's gun; that needs to be fired. Any time you fire it, though, there's a high chance they come off looking like belligerent jerks.

Matsu Mitsuko is not portrayed as a villain ... like at all . Mitsuko's death is probably the second most romantic thing to happen in the new continuity thus far (and the first most romantic thing was also a Lion story). Neither is Lion portrayed villainously in this story. To the contrary, Unicorn's rep is rapidly tarnishing. Altansarnai is in the wrong. The fact that Shono knows it makes what happens in A Swift End that much more tragic, not just Mitsuko's death but that the Champion's shameful behavior forced the issue. She dishonored herself and her Clan for the sake of romantic affection - and Shono has to pay for it by losing his own beloved. The irony may be lost on folks blinded by hatred for Lion but I doubt Shono failed to notice.

7 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I mean, o  ur leading lady is a wholly sympathetic figure from the way this tale is structured- a woman in an impossible situation

And yet you don't like Shahai. Weird.

8 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

As far as the leadership decisions that put her in that situation? The Lion's blatantly aggressive maneuvering is a matter of record, not just in this story, but in all stories thus far- but note that even such bloodthirsty maniacs as the worst of the Lion still needed a pretext to let slip the dogs of war- the Unicorn did break their agreement- arguments about shady Ikoma notwithstanding, the Unicorn agreed to the deal in the name of peace. Break the agreement? You break any expectation of peace.

They need a pretext because without on they're at increased risk of facing Imperial sanctions and other Clans offering support to the Unicorn.

Plus I'm fairly sure that if you tell a girl "Marry me or I hit you," and she says "Fine," but then she finds out you're already married and your wife is so distraught about the situation she's planning to kill herself so the girl decides not to marry you and you start hitting her you're still the bad guy in that situation.

2 hours ago, Manchu said:

Matsu Mitsuko is not portrayed as a villain ... like at all . Mitsuko's death is probably the second most romantic thing to happen in the new continuity thus far (and the first most romantic thing was also a Lion story). Neither is Lion portrayed villainously in this story  .

Well she did cripple Shono's horse. You don't do that to a Unicorn and not expect to get stabbed in the gut.

Also, pretty sure getting a bunch of your own soldiers killed so you can have an excuse for war counts as villainous.

I don't see what's villainous about it. Sacrificing one's life for the good of one's Clan isn't villainous in the slightest. Matsu Mitsuko did not hesitate, nor did her men. Expecting your soldiers to make such a sacrifice isn't villainous in the slightest, either. Mitsuko and her ashigaru died heroically.

The phrase "excuse for war" makes no sense here. I'm not confused by Unicorn rhetoric, like "if Lion wants war." In point of fact, Lion wanted to settle disputed claims to certain lands. Those claims were indeed settled after three years of negotiation, including the Lion risking relations with the Phoenix. Altansarnai shamefully threw away the resulting treaty on a whim.

The truth is, Unicorn wants war, or at the very least does not care about peace. Certainly Kamoko craves war against the Lion for personal reasons. And for personal reasons, the Unicorn champion recklessly abandoned peace.

If you want to know who wants an excuse for war, ask yourself a few questions: Why did Lion spend three years in good faith negotiation? Did the Ide courtiers really miserably fail to ascertain Ikoma marriage customs or was the informatiom simply withheld from Altansarnai? Why did no one inform Altansarnai that Ikoma Anakuzu was already married? How did Ikoma Akari make it into Unicorn lands only to be conveniently be captured and brought before Altansarnai just in time to change her mind? Who continuously argued to Altansarnai that the whole thing was a Lion trick? And isn't it convenient that the same person has a personal grudge against the Lion Clan?

25 minutes ago, Manchu said:

If you want to know who wants an excuse for war, ask yourself a few questions:

Why did Lion spend three years in good faith negotiation?

Did the Ide courtiers really miserably fail to ascertain Ikoma marriage customs or was the informatiom simply withheld from Altansarnai?

Why did no one inform Altansarnai that Ikoma Anakuzu was already married?

How did Ikoma Akari make it into Unicorn lands only to be conveniently be captured and brought before Altansarnai just in time to change her mind?

Who continuously argued to Altansarnai that the whole thing was a Lion trick? And isn't it convenient that the same person has a personal grudge against the Lion Clan?

Somewhere at this very moment an unknown Ide Courtier is grinning fiendishly while contemplating his/her nefarious 3yrs long scheme to depose the Altansarnai and elect a Ide champion finally coming to fruition

31 minutes ago, Manchu said:

I  d  on't see what's villainous about it. Sacrificing one's life for the good of one's Clan isn't villainous in the slightest. Matsu Mitsuko did not hesitate, nor   di  d her men. Expecting your soldiers to make such a sacrifice isn't villainous in the slightest, either. Mitsuko and her ashigaru died heroically.     

I'll refrain from mentioning the specific historical example I'm thinking of. But the Lion could have just dressed a bunch of peasants in purple, executed them, and claimed it was a Unicorn attack. They didn't need to send an undersized force to get whipped out.

36 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Why did Lion spend three years in good faith negotiation?

They were willing to wait three years for negotiations to break down so they could say the Unicorn were being difficult and invade.

22 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Did the Ide courtiers really miserably fail to ascertain Ikoma marriage customs or was the informatiom simply withheld from Altansarnai?

To little information to go on. I still think the most likely scenario is that the Ikoma made up their marriage custom so the Unicorn would reject the treaty and give the Lion an excuse for war.

24 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Why did no one inform Altansarnai that Ikoma Anakuzu was already married?

Probably the Lion didn't tell anyone.

25 minutes ago, Manchu said:

How did Ikoma Akari make it into Unicorn lands only to be conveniently be captured and brought before Altansarnai just in time to change her mind?

Probably the Lion weren't expecting Altansarnai to be willing to leave her Clan so they needed some way to get her to reject the treaty and give them an excuse for war.

28 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Who continuously argued to Altansarnai that the whole thing was a Lion trick?

Pretty much everybody.

28 minutes ago, Manchu said:

And isn't it convenient that the same person has a personal grudge against the Lion Clan?

Not really. Lots of people have grudges against the Lion. That's what happens when you warmonger so much.

2 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

And yet you don't like Shahai. Weird.

Not seeing the vast difference in how the two characters respond to their respective dilemmas is far weirder.

One goes, “why me?”

The other goes, “This sucks, but as a samurai, my duty is clear.”

One contemplated killing herself without regard for what it will do to her clan.

The other fights a hopeless battle because she understands what her death will mean on the bigger picture.

They’re poles apart.

2 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

They need a pretext because without on they're at increased risk of facing Imperial sanctions and other Clans offering support to the Unicorn.

They need a pretext because for all of their flaws, they’re the (boring) yardstick by which Bushido is measured. To War without reason would make a mockery of their claims to being actual functioning members of a society.

“Also, pretty sure getting a bunch of your own soldiers killed so you can have an excuse for war counts as villainous. “

Standing and dying with your men because your horrible hierarchical society mandates that you follow orders hardly makes you a villain. Matsu “the Butcher” Gohei? Almost certainly a villain, even to someone who loathes the Crane as much as I do. Matsu Mitsuko? Hardly.

It never ceases to amaze me the absolute drivel people will post on here to run down Lion. From a single post above:

• The Lion negotiated peace for three years because they are bloodthirsty warmongers ... ?
• Ikoma invented a marriage "tradition" specifically to insult Altansarnai ... ??
• The Lion sent Akari to Unicorn lands and somehow managed to get her captured and given an audience with the Unicorn champion ... ???
• The marriage status of the Ikoma daimyo is a secret ... ????

I really hope this was supposed to be a joke.

We know Utaku Kamoko hates the Lion Clan. We know she argued that the Ikoma tricked Altansarnai into agreeing to the treaty. We know Altansarnai disagreed with Kamoko and accepted the treaty until Ikoma Akari suddenly appeared* before Altansarnai. We know that Akari herself expressed disbelief that she actually got to speak to Altansarnai. We know Kamoko is the one who brought Akari before Altansarnai. And we know that Altansarnai suddenly agreed with Kamoko after talking with Akari. It is fairly obvious that Kamoko played on the flaws of Altansarnai to cause the Unicorn champion to provoke a war with the Lion. It also seems obvious that the Ide negotiators are conspiring with Kamoko, unless they are just completely incompetent.

*Also note, Akari's audience with Altansarnai directly followed a meeting with a Crane diplomat.

56 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Quote

Also, pretty sure getting a bunch of your own soldiers killed so you can have an excuse for war counts as villainous

Standing and dying with your men because your horrible hierarchical society mandates that you follow orders hardly makes you a villain. Matsu “the Butcher” Gohei? Almost certainly a villain, even to someone who loathes the Crane as much as I do. Matsu Mitsuko? Hardly.

i think s/he was arguing that it was the clan leadership portrayed as evil rather than Mitsuko herself.

We can all agree that Matsu Mitsuko was simply a victim of the circumstances and decided to accomplish her duty as samurai despite her inner turmoil. This is an honorable act worth of praise and in line with the tenets of Bushido, there is nothing reproachable about it.

[just to be clear, i originally mistaken her for Matsu "wild boar" Tsuko and found reprehensible for her character to suddenly turn 180° and play the part of the victim to a series of actions she willingly initiated]

i do not agree with the sentiment that Lion act as villains but we're certainly more accustomed to see them display their selfishness,greed and pretentiousness rather than identify them as paragon of Bushido (whether this is the result of their upbringing or the necessity of giving them a pro-active role in the plot is another matter )

Well, the Lion, unfortunately, are constrained by being the Anti-Human Warfare Specialists. I mean, they've also got the Ikoma Histories, and Kitsu Ancestor worship, and they produced my hands-down favorite Turquiose Champ in the old lore, but... ultimately, when your schtick is "that warfare thing everybody does, only better," you're going to end up looking like a jerk fairly often. Lion bullying just rubs modern readers wrong in the way Crane bullying or Scorpion bullying really... don't.

Interesting point regarding "modern readers." It seems a lot of L5R fans are not especially sympathetic to the actual culture of Rokugan.

45 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

They’re poles apart.

Yes, but Shahai is far more sympathetic.

Mitsuko knew the risks of courting someone from another Clan: if things didn't work out they might end up at war. Plus she's a willing pawn in her superior's plans to orchestrate a war with the Unicorn. And she actually gets to die instead of having to continue putting up with life.

Meanwhile, Shahai's Family gets subjected to unprecedented levels of scrutiny just for being foreign. Then when she's placed into a position that deprives her of virtually all agency she tries to exercise some in the few ways available to her.

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

They need a pretext because for all of their flaws, they’re the (boring) yardstick by which Bushido is measured. To War without reason would make a mockery of their claims to being actual functioning members of a society.

The Lion high command knows they're playing dirty. It's just a matter of avoiding the consequences of it.

17 minutes ago, Manchu said:

We know Utaku Kamoko hates the Lion Clan. We know she argued that the Ikoma tricked Altansarnai into agreeing to the treaty. We know Altansarnai disagreed with Kamoko and accepted the treaty until Ikoma Akari suddenly appeared* before Altansarnai. We know that Akari herself expressed disbelief that she actually got to speak to Altansarnai. We know Kamoko is the one who brought Akari before Altansarnai. And we know that Altansarnai suddenly agreed with Kamoko after talking with Akari. It is fairly obvious that Kamoko played on the flaws of Altansarnai to cause the Unicorn champion to provoke a war with the Lion. It also seems obvious that the Ide negotiators are conspiring with Kamoko, unless they are just completely incompetent.

If that's how the Lion want to spin things that's fine. The observant neutral party will be capable of seeing the facts for what they are regardless.

24 minutes ago, mirrorcat said:

i think he was arguing that it was the clan leadership portrayed as evil rather than Mitsuko herself.

Yes, very much so.

19 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Lion bullying just rubs modern readers wrong in the way Crane bullying or Scorpion bullying really... don't  .

I think it more a matter of not wanting to be on the receiving end of another Clan's machinations. If the Crane are trying to steal the Yasuki provinces or the Scorpion are up in your business you aren't any happier than if the Lion army is knocking on your door.

Though I will give props to the new story having most of the conflict be due to different factions having conflicting goals instead of a bunch of mustache twirlers. I can see how if you were on the side of the Scorpion or Lion you'd be happy with the current state of affairs.

1 minute ago, shineyorkboy said:

Yes, but Shahai is far more sympathetic.

Nope.

1 minute ago, shineyorkboy said:

Mitsuko knew the risks of courting someone from another Clan: if things didn't work out they might end up at war. Plus she's a willing pawn in her superior's plans to orchestrate a war with the Unicorn. And she actually gets to die instead of having to continue putting up with life.

Meanwhile, Shahai's Family gets subjected to unprecedented levels of scrutiny just for being foreign. Then when she's placed into a position that deprives her of virtually all agency she tries to exercise some in the few ways available to her.

Mitsuko didn't "court" anyone. Her marriage was arranged and she was lucky enough to like the guy, only for politics to ruin everything. And "willing pawn"? Try "Lion Bushi." As for "getting to die," I'll grant that she has that out, but she didn't exactly seek it, and she's clearly not too happy about it- nor does she throw her fight. Kanshi might have been an option, but given the nature of the conflict with the Unicorn... not really appropriate.

Meanwhile, Shahai never thinks of her family without thinking of herself. It's all over her internal dialogue. Moreover, all of Shahai's attempts at "agency" are about her feelings rather than the actual needs of her Clan, given their crappy situation.

Again.
Shahai asks, "Why me?"
Mitsuko asks, "If not me, then who?"

I can understand Shahai, but that doesn't make her admirable- and the comparison to Mitsuko is laughable.

1 minute ago, shineyorkboy said:

Though I will give props to the new story having most of the conflict be due to different factions having conflicting goals instead of a bunch of mustache twirlers. I can see how if you were on the side of the Scorpion or Lion you'd be happy with the current state of affairs.

I dunno... If I were on the side of the Lion or the Scorpion I'd be waiting for the other shoe to drop- 'cause they have nowhere to go but down. The Scorpion, in particular, are bumping against the ceiling of the Rokugani social system (and Kachiko is clearly chafing under that fact), while the Lion... the Lion are picking fights on two fronts- and the Unicorn are a long way from the tsunami-racked Crane in terms of capability. Kamoko is certainly not the only Unicorn itching to show the Lion that there are lessons left for them to learn in war.

There's no spin to it. You can't spit in the face of the Lion and expect anything but war.

Altansarnai did not want a war with the Lion. But clearly there are powerful people in the Unicorn Clan who do. Their champion instructed them to pursue peace. They proceeded to obtain an agreement they thought she would never accept, knowing her romance with Daiyu is her weakness. They strategiclly hid information from her to convince her she was the victim of Lion perfidy. But to their dismay, she agreed to the treaty. And she rejected their arguments against it and determined to keep her word and obtain peace. But they successfully manipulated her emotions in the end. The result: Altansarnai became ready to cover her own shame by committing her Clan to war.

On the Lion side, there are definitely those who want war. But I doubt it matters to them whether it's a war against the Crane or against the Unicorn. People who devote so much of their lives to warfare want to fight wars. And when the honor of the Clan is insulted before the entire Empire, when a three-year peace process is unilaterally disregarded, you better believe they will advocate for war.

And again I don't see anything "evil" about that.

To be fair, the Lion certainly had a scheme beyond “just go and take this village”.

They send Mitsuko with a force mainly comprised of ashigaru. If the Lion really wanted to keep Hisu Mori Mura, they would have sent a bigger force (it’s not like they cannot afford it). Even Mitsuko thought it a couple of times: “Had she Matsu infantry at her back...”, “Had she Ikoma archers...”. When Shono challenged her, she said “I have orders. We must hold, to the last soldier”

The thing is, the Lion wanted a force small enough that the Unicorn could see the retaking of the village as a possibility. The Lion wasn’t interested in keeping Hisu Mori Mura, it was interested in provoking the Unicorn to attack.

That being said, I don’t find that villainous. The Lion really think they’re doing this to amend an insult to them, and they really think they have the right to those lands. They’re just doing what they think Bushido demands of them.

And they don’t think that risking a hundred lives in doing so it’s evil, per se. After all, the Clan’s Honor is worth every life they have. They’re the rightful owners of those lands, and if the Unicorn decides to invade their lands, then it’s hardly the Lion’s fault, right?

In the end, like in all things Rokugan, nobody is clearly right or wrong. Which is normal. In a land where the ideal “way to go” is a subjective interpretation of a list of values which are impossible to uphold in its entirety by a normal human being, nobody can be in possession of the absolute truth.