And remember, as I said when pointing out Kakita Yoshi's folly... we're not at the part of the story where people make things better! ?

Unicorn unilaterally broke the treaty. Lion responded by unilaterally asserting its claim on the disputed lands, the initial source of the conflict. Formally, Mitsuko's mission was to give Unicorn notice of this claim (remember the scroll Yumino presented to Altansarnai). Mitsuko would of course have to defend the village to the last soldier given the Lion's claim. And of course both Mitsuko and Hisu Mori Mura were purposely chosen to emphasize Unicorn's faithlessness. Mitsuko's force was almost certainly purposely small to embolden the Unicorn. Mobilizing a proper Lion army (a) might scare the Unicorn into inaction and (b) would be construed by Ide courtiers as an act of war.

Lion acted in a Not Dumb way. And this makes them evil?

I am not worried about this two-front war. The Emperor will likely resolve the issue of Toshi Ranbo, probably to Dragon's gain, obviating the Crane-Lion conflict. The Imperial families will be keen that the Lion's aggression be redirected. Matsu Gohei appears to have constrcuted a fact pattern the Imperials will be able to countenace.

I don't think Altansarnai is long for this world.

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

Neither is Lion portrayed villainously in this story.

I dunno but they aren't exactly heroic either. And, of course, one shouldn't forget that Mitsuko is pulling through a hidden ploy here and not doing a valiant last stand. Not only that but her motivation for the ride is duty and loyalty. I'm sure she couldn't have gone more Scorpion here even if she had tried.

However, this might be a flaw in the writing too, because there isn't a whole lot going on against Shono, and his seemingly pure intentions are pitted against a scheming killer lady and her warmongering hardliner clan. There is this thing, like, I can totally imagine Mitsuko retreating from the burning fortress while wearing a skin-tight black bodysuit and glasses, screaming " Cobra Lion, RETREAT!" while Shono gives pursuit with a "Yo ShinJoe!" battlecry while shooting blue lasers at her.

10 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

That's still conflict, and conflict (the basis of stories) has to come from somewhere.

You have flawed characters and unfortunate events for this, getting the conflict going isn't even the hardest part. Ending this kind of a conflict is a lot harder.

10 hours ago, Kinzen said:

But again . . . from a story perspective, if you constantly hear about how the Lion have the best armies, but you never see them go to war, then it isn't very convincing.

1

This is probably a rare case of "Tell Don't Show". Personally, I would prefer the Lion military might as initially intangible and something that just hangs low over the characters but never really sees action, and focus on the Paragons-of-Bushido aspect of the clan early on.

OK, "Yo ShinJoe" is hilarious.

But I think you've lost the plot on Mitsuko. She's in a classic duty versus love situation. Her love for Shono is very clearly not a ploy. And we see her paying the price for being a good Lion. She lives after Shono thinks she's died. She sees him leave her behind and move along in a world in which she has no further role to play. It's the most sympathetic thing I've read in the new continuity fiction, edging out even Hiruma Shizuyo.

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I dunno... If I were on the side of the Lion or the Scorpion I'd be waiting for the other shoe to drop- 'cause they have nowhere to go but down. The Scorpion, in particular, are bumping against the ceiling of the Rokugani social system (and Kachiko is clearly chafing under that fact), while the Lion... the Lion are picking fights on two fronts- and the Unicorn are a long way from the tsunami-racked Crane in terms of capability. Kamoko is certainly not the only Unicorn itching to show the Lion that there are lessons left for them to learn in war.

That's meta reasoning based on the fact that we're aware this is a narrative. I'm talking about from an in-universe point of view.

1 minute ago, shineyorkboy said:

That's meta reasoning based on the fact that we're aware this is a narrative. I'm talking about from an in-universe point of view.

From an in-universe point of view, the Scorpion are still aware of those problems (Witness Yojiro spiking Kachiko's cheating guns at the EC and Shoju telling her to mind her head) and the Lion are sufficiently divided that they tried to kick their Clan Champion upstairs into the EC rather than letting him exercise some thoughtful restraint on their latest projects...

So my meta reasoning and their in-universe reasoning appear to have arrived at similar conclusions.

51 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

I dunno but they aren't exactly heroic either. And, of course, one shouldn't forget that Mitsuko is pulling through a hidden ploy here and not doing a valiant last stand. Not only that but her motivation for the ride is duty and loyalty. I'm sure she couldn't have gone more Scorpion here even if she had tried.

Yes she could have. Scorpion would’ve hired Ronin, put them in Scorpion armor, let the Unicorn kill them (and kill any survivor themselves), and burn the fields while blaming the Unicorn. They would have killed the enemy commander while they were at it, and certainly not in a honorable manner. And of course, the Scorpion commander would have escaped.

Mitsuko’s actions are heroic and honorable to her and her clan . She really believes this. The fact that the other clans maybe don’t think the same is not important to her.

20 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Yes she could have. Scorpion would’ve hired Ronin, put them in Scorpion armor, let the Unicorn kill them (and kill any survivor themselves), and burn the fields while blaming the Unicorn. They would have killed the enemy commander while they were at it, and certainly not in a honorable manner. And of course, the Scorpion commander would have escaped.

2

That was not the end the Lion was chasing. What the Lion wanted, and what Mitsuko was ordered to achieve, was to have a prominent Lion samurai die at the hands of a Unicorn. Disguising ronin, killing the enemy commander (the real reason Mitsuko turned down the duel), burning the fields (the Unicorn did that just fine), etc would have been quite counterproductive to this plan. Mitsuko really maxed this one out in the "shady underhanded motivations" department, and while she indeed went full emotional on it, one can make an argument that this made the whole thing so much worse.

24 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Mitsuko’s actions are heroic and honorable to her and her clan . She really believes this. The fact that the other clans maybe don’t think the same is not important to her.

This is kind of a justification a "honorable" but villainous character would make. From my point of view, the Jedi are evil and all that.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

That was not the end the Lion was chasing. What the Lion wanted, and what Mitsuko was ordered to achieve, was to have a prominent Lion samurai die at the hands of a Unicorn. Disguising ronin, killing the enemy commander (the real reason Mitsuko turned down the duel), burning the fields (the Unicorn did that just fine), etc would have been quite counterproductive to this plan. Mitsuko really maxed this one out in the "shady underhanded motivations" department, and while she indeed went full emotional on it, one can make an argument that this made the whole thing so much worse.

It's kind of adorable that you don't think the Scorpion could produce a name- even a lineage!- to go with their throwaway force.

And it's downright hilarious that you think her motivations were shady and underhanded. Her superiors may well have been up to no good, but Mitsuko's motives? Dangerously pure. Fatally so, in fact.

1 minute ago, AtoMaki said:

This is kind of a justification a "honorable" but villainous character would make. From my point of view, the Jedi are evil and all that.

Question:

Did or did not the Unicorn break their agreement with the Lion, thereby insulting them in a context where Face is vitally important?
Did or did not the Unicorn have the option of letting the Lion keep the little fort they just seized after sending notice that they were claiming it due to the broken agreement, and instead responded by sending an armed party?
Did the Unicorn appeal to Imperial justice on the matter of the disputed land, or did they send a platoon to retake it?
Did or did not the Lion commander indicate that her orders left her no recourse but to hold the place as best she was able, with solo duels forbidden?
Did or did not the Unicorn persist in their attack?
Did or did not Matsu Mitsuko refuse to dishonor her ancestors, her clan, and herself by surrender or disobedience to her daimyo's direct orders?

You don't need to be terribly villainous to accept the Lion's through-line. You just can't be applying our standards of logic while disregarding Rokugani notions of Honor and Face. Even the Unicorn wouldn't hold her in low regard- they may certainly regard her as an enemy, and regard the liege who put her in that situation as a greater enemy, but her motives do not appear to be impugned even by Shinjo Shono. He may not understand why she felt the need to die, but he doesn't accuse her of anything but heartlessness- he certainly doesn't appear to ascribe dark motives to her- merely voices sadness about their mutual lack of understanding.

4 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

It's kind of adorable that you don't think the Scorpion could produce a name- even a lineage!- to go with their throwaway force.

If I recall it correctly, playing around with Ronin was more of a Spider thing. The Scorpion traditionally has a huge hard-on for loyalty and thus throwing their lives away for the greater good. You can imagine this story being about Bayushi Mitsuko and her Scorpion force defending the fort, and the whole scene would remain almost perfectly fluffy. Sans the angry shouting, maybe.

12 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

You don't need to be terribly villainous to accept the Lion's through-line.

1

I'm not saying they went full Spider Clan here, only that they are slipping pretty darn hard. Not like there is anything new or unusual here either, but it might push your average reader to the wrong direction.

Lion are definitely villainous here. They are starting a war for no good reason. That's evil.

17 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

Lion are definitely villainous here. They are starting a war for no good reason. That's evil.

Lets not confuse villains and antagonists.

While we may not agree with it from our lens the Lion do feel they have a justification with the failed marriage and the need to retake land that was surrendered to the Unicorn on their return to the empire (which given the current state of the Crane lands and the food shortages that leads to plus the lose of the Osori Plains during the ongoing dispute over Toshi Ranbo may mean that Lion are experiencing their own food crisis similar to the Crane just not as publicly advertised).

While I don't agree with Manchu's the Lion are wholly innocent (hint the Ikoma did as much as they possibly could do set up a deal that would leave the Unicorn with no choice but to walk away from it and give them an excuse to point to them as being in the wrong) and the Unicorn are to blame for the escalation we see here to open conflict, there is from the Rokugani honor bound society perspective a reason for the Lion to have taken the steps they did.

What they feel has nothing to do with what is true.

1 hour ago, HamHamJ2 said:

They are starting a war for no good reason.

OK we get it already, you're trolling.

38 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

the Ikoma did as much as they possibly could do set up a deal that would leave the Unicorn with no choice but to walk away from it and give them an excuse to point to them as being in the wrong

I'm not saying the Ikoma wouldn't do this. But there isn't evidence that they did. And it doesn't make sense that they could hide the pertinent details from the Ide unless we assume the Ide are fundamentally incapable of doing their job (which is also not supported).

Instead, the evidence points to good faith negotiation on Lion's part. Lion wanted either the territories in question or such a secure alliance that they need not worry about the territories. Unicorn wanted those territories as part of its larger desire to be more accpeted and respected among the Great Clans, which a close alliance with Lion would also help achieve. This is why Altansarnai insisted on keeping her end of the bargain even after her retainers started springing information on her that only they were in a position to hide from her.

Rather than the Ikoma sabotaging the deal, it seems far more likely to have been the Ide working at Kamoko's behest. It seems she has convinced a band of conspirators that the best way to gain greater respect in Rokugan is to go to war with Lion. Of course, this would just be a pretense for venting her personal hatred.

20 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

What they feel has nothing to do with what is true.

This is what’s true:

Lion offered the Unicorn a peace treaty. Unicorn accepted. Unicorn then backed out of the treaty, breaking their word (a HUGE insult in Rokugan). So Lion now has rights over those lands.

That’s undeniable.

5 minutes ago, Manchu said:

I'm not saying the Ikoma wouldn't do this. But there isn't evidence that they did. And it doesn't make sense that they could hide the pertinent details from the Ide unless we assume the Ide are fundamentally incapable of doing their job (which is also not supported).

The proof is in the deal itself. The Lin gained claim to Hisu Mori Torride, a herd of Unicorn steeds and the Unicorn Champion was stepping down to marry into the Ikoma (and we're ignoring the fact that seems to have been a surprise to the Unicorn until after the negotiations were completed) for "peace" with the Lion and that one of their Samurai-Ko was to marry the heir to the Unicorn thus the future champion would be tied by blood tot he Lion clan,

From an outside perspective this is a deal that you negotiate after you've decisively won a war and are looking to beat your losing opponent into the ground so that they can never rise up against you again.

9 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

This is what’s true:

Lion offered the Unicorn a peace treaty. Unicorn accepted. Unicorn then backed out of the treaty, breaking their word (a HUGE insult in Rokugan). So Lion now has rights over those lands.

That’s undeniable.

This is a ridiculous claim. Citation needed on all of this. Did Lion have any actual claims to these lands in the first place? Presumably the land were given to the Unicorn by the Emperor. But the Lion wouldn't shut up about their claims so the Unicorn offered them a deal because they are reasonable and compassionate but the Lion put in a bunch of unacceptable fine print in obvious bad faith. Breaking the deal doesn't give them any new claims.

49 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

From an outside perspective this is a deal that you negotiate after you've decisively won a war and are looking to beat your losing opponent into the ground so that they can never rise up against you again.

For some reason you're refusing to see the larger picture. From an outsider's perspective, this a deal that will forge the closest and strongest bond in the Empire between any two Great Clans. Lion give up all claims to disputed territory. The former and current Unicorn champions are married to Lion samurai. Lion start sourcing cavalry mounts from Unicorn. Every one of these points is to the mutual advantage of the two clans - and perhaps for that reason would be seen as disadvantageous to all others. At a higher level, the Unicorn gain their main goal: acceptance and respect in Rokugan. If the Lion (of all clans!) can accept the Unicorn to this extreme degree, no other clan can meaningfully challenge them.

There are very good reasons why Altansarnai still wanted to stick to the deal even after her retainers started to reveal the information only they could have kept from her.

50 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

This is a ridiculous claim. Citation needed on all of this. Did Lion have any actual claims to these lands in the first place? Presumably the land were given to the Unicorn by the Emperor. But the Lion wouldn't shut up about their claims so the Unicorn offered them a deal because they are reasonable and compassionate but the Lion put in a bunch of unacceptable fine print in obvious bad faith. Breaking the deal doesn't give them any new claims.

The land was given to the Ki-Rin by the Emperor. The Unicorn was unable to defend it against Yobanjin. So the Lion did. The Emperor then gave those lands to the Lion. The Unicorn then return. Not the Ki-Rin, the Unicorn. The Crane uses all its political power to give those lands back to the Unicorn. But the Lion has been occupying those lands for 800 years, and after all that time the borders are no longer clear. So there’s conflict and skirmishes at the borders. (Altansarnai: “ The Lion offered this marriage as a means of finding peace. We give them a dowry of horses; they remove their claim from our southernmost lands ”) The Lion and the Unicorn, after long negotiations, agree to a treaty. Both parts accept it. The Unicorn Champion knows that backing out means war (Altansarnai: “ The Lion and the Unicorn are already agreed. If I do not marry him, the clan will suffer a great loss of honor. That failure may well lead to war .”). It does not matter if the treaty is just or not, it’s already been signed by both parts. Breaking the treaty was important enough that the Unicorn Champion had to send a messenger to the Emperor to ask for His permission to make it (“Flying Chariot, Standing” fiction). And then the Emperor approved just because it was a source of conflict (Tadaji: “ Yet, infighting between the clans has long been the aim of the Imperials [ .. .] War would keep us and the Lion occupied with each other, with neither able to grow strong enough to be an unbalancing element. ”) The Unicorn purposely put their feelings over Duty (Kamoko: “ which shall we follow: spirit or duty?” ), and that’s an insult for all Rokugan, specially the Lion, which see Bushido as the only true way. But Altansarnai knew what she was doing, and decided to confront all Rokugani traditions (Altansarnai: “ The tradition of Rokugan is not the law of Rokugan ”), because she feels that is the Unicorn purpose in Rokugan (Altansarnai: “ Despite their adherence to old ways and constraining traditions, we will bring the Empire forward, into the realm of the possible. We will teach its people our strength—and we will show them our duty. ” and “ The Empire will simply have to embrace pragmatism. It will have to accept our curved swords .”).

What cannot be denied, is that Unicorn broke the deal, whatever its reasons for that were, with full knowledge that will bring censure from the rest of Rokugan, and war from the Lion.

All in all, we end up with both sides claiming to be in the right. And both are, in their own way.

I vehemently recommend you to reread “Curved Blades”, to refresh your memory.

2 minutes ago, Manchu said:

For some reason you're refusing to see the larger picture. From an outsider's perspective, this a deal that will forge the closest and strongest bond in the Empire between any two Great Clans. Lion give up all claims to disputed territory. The former and current Unicorn champions are married to Lion samurai. Lion start sourcing cavalry mounts from Unicorn. Every one of these points is to the mutual advantage of the two clans - and perhaps for that reason would be seen as disadvantageous to all others. At a higher level, the Unicorn gain their main goal: acceptance and respect in Rokugan. If the Lion (of all clans!) can accept the Unicorn to this extreme degree, no other clan can meaningfully challenge them.

There are very good reasons why Altansarnai still wanted to stick to the deal even after her retainers started to reveal the information only they could have kept from her.

Except that it is not an advantage to the Unicorn. They are surrendering territory that they control, are having their champion resign to marry into the Lion and are giving Lion access to the principle advantage that they in theory have over them by surrendering steeds. In return they are gaining the "support" of the Lion who at the same time are forging alliances with the Clan that is most antagonistic to the Unicorn (and are placing them in a higher position as having the daughter of an Elemental Master and an adviser to the Emperor married to the current champion is a superior position to married to an aging Daimyo). And as to the excuse that the Lion are lending them legitimacy that is not necessary, they already have all the legitimacy they need when the Emperor recognized them as the Children of the Ki-Rin returned after their exodus, as supported by the Crane who recognized them at the time and the Phoenix who extended the now recently suspended right of free travel to the Shrine of the Ki-Rin.

The only reason Altansarnai was sticking to the deal was that she could foresee the reaction the Lion would take and that they would use it as an excuse to try and start hostilities with them under the guise of restoring their tarnished honor.

Lion has a claim over all the Unicorn lands technically considering the Unicorn took it from the Lion when they returned. Toshi Ranbo was their city as well, and the Crane took it from them. It was first settled by the Lion like 500 years ago. Hisu Mori Mura was one of the territories that were suppose to be traded as part of the peace treaty. When the peace treaty fell through Mitsuko was ordered to seize the keep, and she did.

I have yet to see anything in the fiction that suggests the Lion are doing anything illegal, duplicitous or outright villainous. These are all border disputes over territory and Lion have a reasonable argument toward saying these lands all legally belong to them.

7 minutes ago, phillos said:

Lion has a claim over all the Unicorn lands technically considering the Unicorn took it from the Lion when they returned. Toshi Ranbo was their city as well, and the Crane took it from them. It was first settled by the Lion like 500 years ago.

One point here, the Emperor is the one who gave the Unicorn the Ki-Rin lands that the Lion had been acting as steward over while their clan was on their Exodus. The Lion can try and exert a claim over certain border territories (as they are doing here) but to extend past that is tantamount to questioning an Imperial Decree that recognized the legitimacy of the Unicorn as the Children of Shinjo and their right to live in the Empire.

15 minutes ago, Manchu said:

At a higher level, the Unicorn gain their main goal: acceptance and respect in Rokugan. If the Lion (of all clans!) can accept the Unicorn to this extreme degree, no other clan can meaningfully challenge them.

Ah, but this is exactly why Altansarnai broke the treaty: the Unicorn is not looking for acceptance at any price. Its goal is to get Rokugan to accept them as they are, as a meaning to move Rokugan forward into the future, instead of cling to outdated and harmful traditions. One of the best examples of this is Seppuku:

“ On our own, far from home, the Ki-Rin Clan came to respect the sanctity of life. Seppuku was all but unheard-of, and punishments, while cruel, were rarely to the death..”

By accepting the treaty, they were denying their own identity. The only failure was acknowledging this too late. But once they made up their mind, they decided it was better to accept the consequences (war with the Lion) than renounce their true self.

19 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

One point here, the Emperor is the one who gave the Unicorn the Ki-Rin lands that the Lion had been acting as steward over while their clan was on their Exodus. The Lion can try and exert a claim over certain border territories (as they are doing here) but to extend past that is tantamount to questioning an Imperial Decree that recognized the legitimacy of the Unicorn as the Children of Shinjo and their right to live in the Empire.

Which is why the Unicorn have a reasonable argument to say the land all belongs to them. That's exactly what I want out of a clan VS clan conflict. Hisu Mori Mura lies on the border along with I'm sure all the other territories that are now contested since the peace treaty has fallen through. The Lion can only lay claim to territories where the borders are not well defined, which they certainly are doing since it's the only thing within their legal right to do. It's just like Toshi Ranbo. It lies in land that has been contested for generations though originally it was settled by the Lion. My original comment about Lion having claim to Unicorn land was meant to give proper motivation to their actions. You don't just occupy a land for 800 years and give it up without resentment. Families have been living there for generations and now these Unicorn just show up and sweep it all away.

10 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

I think it more a matter of not wanting to be on the receiving end of another Clan's machinations. If the Crane are trying to steal the Yasuki provinces or the Scorpion are up in your business you aren't any happier than if the Lion army is knocking on your door.

The conversation has charged in a different direction at very high speed since you posted this, but: the difference I see is that the Crane might be trying to steal the Yasuki provinces one day, but the next day they might be the ally bending their diplomatic talents toward helping you get something you need. The Scorpion might be up in your business, but they're supposed to be antagonists . That is literally their job. (And hey: sometimes they're up in somebody else's business and offering you the fruits of their efforts, to help you get something you need.)

Whereas the Lion are almost never the military ally bailing out somebody else in their time of crisis. Other clans band together against them, but how often do you see them offering their assistance to Clan A against Clan B? I won't say it never happens . . . but because they're such a huge stonking force, the calculus rarely seems to work out that way, unless it's an external invasion that causes the whole Empire to join hands. Which is why they wind up having a reputation as bullies: they're frequently the one picking the fight, instead of the one standing up for somebody else being bullied.