Juts got the pack.

So the Lion are bloodthirsty maniacs who think they can win a war on two fronts. I hope this ends as badly for them as possible.

17 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

Juts got the pack.

So the Lion are bloodthirsty maniacs who think they can win a war on two fronts. I hope this ends as badly for them as possible.

Not quite. They aren't actually at war with the Crane, it's just a skirmish over 1 city. What they want is an actual, Emperor-sanctioned war with the Unicorn that will let them turn their entire army loose. And when I say 'they' I think I mean Ujiaki and Gohei. Because of all the people mentioned in this story, I reckon only Gohei got what he wanted out of it.

Also, another vassal family

Lion is aggressive by nature. The Lion “state” revolves around constant preparation for war. All things wish to express their nature. Lion must fight from time to time. The Imperial families realize this.

We wants the links, pleassssess... we wants them, preciousssss...

I believe the previous story was meant to showcase just how disproportionate the size of the Lion's army is compared to most of the other clans. If any clan can easily fight a two front war it's the Lion. It was a good story. Very sad. It confirmed another vassal family. The Hosokawa family.

I look forward to reading it although I don't look forward to the sad, which of course was inevitable.

Link here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YbSRUgYa-fS18HhgfnpnjtxvWRmMDeGI

Woah... I liked it a lot. Very Lion, very standard-samurai. Duty and Honor over feelings and all that.

They made a very credible Matsu character by addressing her feelings before, during, and after battle. Also, at last something that shows the tactical side of the Lion instead of “Hurrr durrhh... let’s charge recklessly and die”

Hosokawa, vassal family of the Ikoma. Seems like vassals families are taking the place of minor clans? Instead of making minor clans every time a character does something heroic, they’re like “here, have your own family.”

Were Ikoma archers a thing in O5R? I remember them as courtiers almost always?

Overall, I think the image of the Lion as a clan does not fare well in this fiction. Sending some troops to die so you can have your war is something that, in my opinion, won’t resonate too well with Lion players.

It resonates with me.

Mistuko performed admirably, with the exception of running herself through on Shinjo Shono's sword to avoid killing him. Although he did not face the test I had hoped he would, Shono is a credit to his clan. He will make a fine champion after the war.

3 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

Link here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1YbSRUgYa-fS18HhgfnpnjtxvWRmMDeGI

Woah... I liked it a lot. Very Lion, very standard-samurai. Duty and Honor over feelings and all that.

They made a very credible Matsu character by addressing her feelings before, during, and after battle. Also, at last something that shows the tactical side of the Lion instead of “Hurrr durrhh... let’s charge recklessly and die”

Hosokawa, vassal family of the Ikoma. Seems like vassals families are taking the place of minor clans? Instead of making minor clans every time a character does something heroic, they’re like “here, have your own family.”

Were Ikoma archers a thing in O5R? I remember them as courtiers almost always?

Overall, I think the image of the Lion as a clan does not fare well in this fiction. Sending some troops to die so you can have your war is something that, in my opinion, won’t resonate too well with Lion players.

In the old mini's game there were no dedicated Lion clan archery units, but the Ikoma did serve as the scouts for the force, and there were Ikoma units that used short throwing spears as their primary weapon.

I think it was my favorite of the Lion clan fictions so far because it showed that Lion's are human. Even though they act the way they do they still have all the same range of human emotions everyone else does. Their strict adherence to bushido is in reality a huge sacrifice for them. Also ultimately a good Lion would put their clan before their own personal interests. She did both in this fiction while also finding a way not to have to kill Shono (I assume because she does still love him as her internal dialogue suggests. Correct me if I'm wrong but it feels like she deliberately lost that fight at the end) and show Shono that's she is disappointed in him and the Unicorn for acting dishonorably.

The story shows it isn't easy for the Lion to act this way and they aren't all just preprogramed to act like that. It's an internal struggle. Also they are disappointed that the other clans don't live up to the same standard. I guess if you feel like you are playing by the rules and everyone else is cheating that starts to go a long way toward explaining why the Lion seems so belligerent all the time toward the other clans. Also I'm sure their need to be tested in battle at a time when their is no foreign threat to march on in the story plays a huge part.

The question now is do the Crane support the Unicorn in all out war with the Lion. Can they afford an actual war and not a skirmish with the Lion. Just the current level of hostilities are taxing the Crane's resources it seems.

7 minutes ago, phillos said:

The question now is do the Crane support the Unicorn in all out war with the Lion. Can they afford an actual war and not a skirmish with the Lion. Just the current level of hostilities are taxing the Crane's resources it seems.

I get the impression the Crane aren't going to have much choice but to escalate. The fact that the Unicorn have the next largest army which will hopefully draw Lion resources away from their front can I'm sure in their eyes only be an advantage.

For me the real question is why the Lion would push this second front. I get that the story dictates that we need the clans in conflict with each other to advance the plot, and the whole marriage debacle was a convenient way to advance that narrative point. That said for the most tactically mined of the clans the Lion sure seem to be making a big mistake as the quickest way to lose a war you are winning is to poke the huge military power that has been sitting mostly idle and force a splitting of your armies between two fronts on opposite sides of you.

1 minute ago, Schmoozies said:

I get the impression the Crane aren't going to have much choice but to escalate. The fact that the Unicorn have the next largest army which will hopefully draw Lion resources away from their front can I'm sure in their eyes only be an advantage.

For me the real question is why the Lion would push this second front. I get that the story dictates that we need the clans in conflict with each other to advance the plot, and the whole marriage debacle was a convenient way to advance that narrative point. That said for the most tactically mined of the clans the Lion sure seem to be making a big mistake as the quickest way to lose a war you are winning is to poke the huge military power that has been sitting mostly idle and force a splitting of your armies between two fronts on opposite sides of you.

I think that all goes back to what I was talking about with regards to a Lion's psychology. These actions demand justice. They can't let them go unchallenged (even if it means putting them at a disadvantage). To a certain extent they have no choice if they are going to be true to their ethos, and they hold grudges for a long time. They are still mad at the Unicorn for taking what they perceive to be their land when they returned(though originally it was Unicorn land it had been held by the Lion for generations). That said they aren't without cunning. Clearly the strategy in this battle included more than just charge out with blades drawn. Also characters like Ujiaki and Kage seem to have an agenda they are following while characters like Tsuko and Toturi are way more reactionary. Though we've mostly seen the story through the reactionary characters and not the real schemers.

1 hour ago, phillos said:

She did both in this fiction while also finding a way not to have to kill Shono (I assume because she does still love him as her internal dialogue suggests. Correct me if I'm wrong but it feels like she deliberately lost that fight at the end) and show Shono that's she is disappointed in him and the Unicorn for acting dishonorably.

Didn’t seem like she lost on purpose, to me at least:

”... and too late she saw the curved blade...”

Although I think that her feelings clouded her judgment and her combat abilities to the point that they, ultimately, caused her death.

I think it was the fact that to me it feels like she didn't expect to win and she was relieved that she didn't win when she remarks she wouldn't want to be in Shono's place. Not that she literally fell on his blade. I'm guessing that would be a very un-Lion thing to do. It felt like Shono wining was a punishment for him in her mind. Though maybe I should go reread the story to see if I'm reading into stuff that isn't there.

Had victory been possible, she certainly would have sought it. Even in its impossibility, she sought it, because that's what Lion do.

11 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

Hosokawa  , vassal family of the Ikoma. Seems like vassals families are taking the place of minor clans? Instead of making minor clans every time a character does something heroic, they’re like “here, have your own family.”

They've been around since Secrets of the Lion , way back when. With that said, I think it's less that vassal families are taking the old Minor Clan jobs, and more that they're being used (FINALLY) to add some depth to the great clans.

11 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

Were Ikoma archers a thing in O5R? I remember them as courtiers almost always? 

They were the scouts, the courtiers, the magistrates... in many ways, the Ikoma were the Asako of the Lion- the family that just sort of handles everything the main stereotypes didn't want to dirty their hands with.

As for Lion archery, well... in the old lore, anyway, that's what the Koritome specialized in. So... Matsu archers, rather than Ikoma.

I don't think Mitsuko consciously committed suicide. But she knew she had fulfilled her duty to her Clan and family and so I think she allowed herself the luxury of not killing the man she loved.

On 3 agosto 2018 at 4:12 PM, phillos said:

I think it was my favorite of the Lion clan fictions so far because it showed that Lion's are human. Even though they act the way they do they still have all the same range of human emotions everyone else does. Their strict adherence to bushido is in reality a huge sacrifice for them. Also ultimately a good Lion would put their clan before their own personal interests. She did both in this fiction while also finding a way not to have to kill Shono (I assume because she does still love him as her internal dialogue suggests. Correct me if I'm wrong but it feels like she deliberately lost that fight at the end) and show Shono that's she is disappointed in him and the Unicorn for acting dishonorably.

I might be in the minority but i personally think that Lions use Bushido as an excuse to justify their actions. It seems to me that they impose their set of values on others to mantain the moral high ground (or to deny their shortcomings).

i'm not going to shed tears for Lady Tsuko's death because i find it to be a very selfish and hypocritical act on her part:

- Lion needed a proper Casus Belli to start a war with Unicorn, so they ordered her to capture the fort (with the excuse that it was meant to be theirs as compensation for the broken contract) and to defend it with her life, rejecting any formal duel

- One may argue that a clan with proper observance of Bushido would consider taking actions that would lead to minimal casualties amongst both parties (as the unicorn officer did when the lion attacked)

- Lady Tsuko was seeking a glorious and "honorable" death by the hands of a worthy opponent. She wasn't trying to perturb his mind with her sacrifice, she genuinely got angry at him for hesitating because that was a sign of cowardice in her eyes and it would rob her of a noble warrior death, brining shame to her memory.

- i'd probably argue that her romantic thoughts for Shojo may not even be entirely honest. I seem to recall her being close to the former Lion champ (there was certantly a strong sense of intimacy), i was genuinely surprised when whe showcased such affection toward someone who she had never even mentioned before and only now that he can fulfil his role as opponent she suddendly held him in such high regard...

- All the Lion characters in this fiction are depicted as valiant heroes sacrificing their lives for the sake of their clan and their ideals; however this is mostly a necessary delusion because anything else would be an explicit admission that their clan is at fault and rather than Lion honor, the only thing upheld here is its Pride

Edit: ofc this is just my interpretation and it may be far from being correct or even reasonable.

i just don't feel particularly sympathetic towards characters that fall victim to their own shortcomings/machinations but plays thenpart of the victim for the sake of self-gratification

@mirrorcat

You’re confusing Matsu Tsuko (daimyo of the Matsu and betrothed of the former Lion clan champion, Akodo Arasou) with Matsu Mitsuko (the main character of this last fiction)

2 hours ago, mirrorcat said:

i'd probably argue that her romantic thoughts for Shojo may not even be entirely honest. I seem to recall her being close to the former Lion champ (there was certantly a strong sense of intimacy), i was genuinely surprised when whe showcased such affection toward someone who she had never even mentioned before and only now that he can fulfil his role as opponent she suddendly held him in such high regard...

You are confusing Matsu Tsuko and Matsu Mitsuko. The former was a lover of Clan Champion, the latter was just introduced in this fiction

Also:

2 hours ago, mirrorcat said:

- Lion needed a proper Casus Belli to start a war with Unicorn, so they ordered her to capture the fort (with the excuse that it was meant to be theirs as compensation for the broken contract) and to defend it with her life, rejecting any formal duel

Well, yeah. The war is coming soon, so might as well start proactive

3 hours ago, mirrorcat said:

the only thing upheld here is its Pride

...and? Is that is not enough? If anything, i would be surprised if Lion DIDN'T retaliate in some way with the whole engagement debacle

3 hours ago, mirrorcat said:

i just don't feel particularly sympathetic towards characters that fall victim to their own shortcomings/machinations but plays thenpart of the victim for the sake of self-gratification

So you don't like all of Rokugan?

10 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

@mirrorcat

You’re confusing Matsu Tsuko (daimyo of the Matsu and betrothed of the former Lion clan champion, Akodo Arasou) with Matsu Mitsuko (the main character of this last fiction)

10 hours ago, Araenon said:

You are confusing Matsu Tsuko and Matsu Mitsuko. The former was a lover of Clan Champion, the latter was just introduced in this fiction

Well, now i feel dumb but it does explain the sudden shift in personality...

MEA CULPA

21 hours ago, mirrorcat said:

- All the Lion characters in this fiction are depicted as valiant heroes sacrificing their lives for the sake of their clan and their ideals; however this is mostly a necessary delusion because anything else would be an explicit admission that their clan is at fault and rather than Lion honor, the only thing upheld here is its Pride

1

Traditionally, in Legend of the Five Rings, the mistakes each Great Clan makes are rooted in taking their ideals too far and failing to realize that what they are doing is not what they think they are doing. The Lion Clan is the go-to butt-monkey of this because taking the Bushido too far is easy, and realizing that what you are doing is no longer Bushido is hard. If anything, it is nice to see that some things did not change from Old5R .

18 hours ago, Araenon said:

Quote

i just don't feel particularly sympathetic towards characters that fall victim to their own shortcomings/machinations but plays thenpart of the victim for the sake of self-gratification

So you don't like all of Rokugan?

To be honest, this is not something one would expect in Rokugan. There is a certain shock effect in waiting for the final moment of utter defiance but only getting some wallowing over poor life choices instead.

All the clans are failures to a certain extent. Yeah Lion looks bad, but flip over to the Unicorn's perspective. They are suppose to be the compassionate and diplomatic clan. Fostering relationships with other people and understanding other cultures is suppose to be their strengths. Then look at what happens in the fictions. A long chain of Unicorn failing in that capacity. If we go through it I think we'll see that this is true of all the clans. Lion's failure is just the most obvious, and also probably the easiest to write in an unsympathetic way. That said I didn't think this fiction was unsympathetic to the Lion. It actually made me like them and understand them better. I think ideally that's how L5R needs to be written. They need to fail, but they need to fail in an understandable and sympathetic way. You need to make sure each clan can be a protagonist in their story and antagonists in other clan stories. So far I think they've been doing this well.

Well, if we go there, my concerns as far as this story goes are more about the Lion being portrayed as kinda villainous.

30 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Well, if we go there, my concerns as far as this story goes are more about the Lion being portrayed as kinda villainous.

I'm curious what you mean by this. I hasten to add I'm not being judgmental, or am about to get all defensive about the writing...I just find this statement intriguing. In what way do you find the Lion "villainous"?

19 minutes ago, DGLaderoute said:

I'm curious what you mean by this. I hasten to add I'm not being judgmental, or am about to get all defensive about the writing...I just find this statement intriguing. In what way do you find the Lion "villainous"?

Having ulterior motives during a fight is not very hero-like by Rokugani standards, for example. This isn't even an ambush or clever use of subterfuge, something that can be a display of virtue in the right situation, but true crapmixing that would make the worst of the Scorpion proud. In fact, the Lion is pretty darn Scorpion-like throughout the whole story.