On 7/29/2018 at 10:24 AM, mirrorcat said:

Out of curisosity, what is the correct approach for unicorn here? How would you (all ) have handled the request?

just to recap the situation:

- You are on the brink of war with Lion

- The Emperor requests specifically for Shahai to come to the capital as "guest" to teach the Seppun how to defend from your arcane art (further contact may be restricted or purposely delayed)

-Unicorn does not seem to possess any relevant influence at court, aside from standard delegations

- Phoenix has already issued a traveling ban and likely closed borders after the Djinn incident (that is btw, still roaming free in your territory)

- "Something" is predating near your south border villages and is apparently capable of traveling vasr distances in the span of a couple of days and is intelligent enough to evade your trackers

- there is a newly discovered Naga village within your territory (or in a spooky forest between Crab land and yours) and the first contact, while relatively cordial, may have resulted in unintended hostilities

-----

this should be all.... Man, i wouldn't want to deal with this mess frankly

I would be failing my duty to the empire and my clan if I did not mention another possible direction the Unicorn could take.

The Unicorn could always ask the Scorpion to forward along messages, with instructions on how to teach meishedo, to Shahai.

Of course there would need to be compensation to the Scorpion for doing this.

However, I'm sure that an agreement could be struck.

1 hour ago, Vulcan646 said:

Of course there would need to be compensation to the Scorpion for doing this.

Keep your shadowbranded pincers out of meishodo, you heretic!

2 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

The writers are limited in how long the stories can be. Unfortunately the plots holes for the Unicorn have ended up making a couple of their important characters look bad.

Of course, we have no intention of faulting the authors, we appreciate the talent and effort put into their works.

This is afterall a multi-author narrative comprised of various (sometimes unreliable) POVs and several distinguished characters/clans with unique prospectives, mindsets and agendas; though few and far between some inconsistencies are bound to come out.

if anything our constant nagging about details is an indication of how entertaining and engaging the world and events depicted truly are!

1 hour ago, mirrorcat said:

if anything our constant nagging about details is an indication of how entertaining and engaging the world and events depicted truly are!

Trufax.

EDIT: I will note, however, that the particular situation with the Unicorn's leadership could have been fixed by an editorial/brand decision to have had their return be far more recent (as some, myself very much included, thought was the case well before we got our first fiction), but, of course, that ship has sailed.

On 7/28/2018 at 7:15 AM, Manchu said:

If you wonder why Shahai is in such a dumb situation in the Capital, look no further than the same leadership that failed to figure out what it was promising and then broke its promise on sentimental grounds. 

If you (we, someone, anyone) wonder why Shahai is in such a dumb situation in the Capital, look no further than a single tournament result, and the story team's direction. I'm not even going to point a finger at the author(s), because they're working at the behest of the story team.

On that, I'll freely admit that I'm pretty disappointed at how the Unicorn, as a whole, have been portrayed in the fiction thus far. The coolest Unicorn I've seen so far was Iuchi Takeya in "Outsiders." Other than that, been pretty weak overall. I'm hoping that by the time the Unicorn novella comes out we've been elevated a little bit beyond being the butt of the Empire's jokes.

* EDIT - Tadaji was pretty darn cool, too. Anyone who likes Shogi is ok with me.

Shinjo Tatsuo aquitted himself well in Awakened (so did Hiruma Kogoe). Unicorn isn't being badly written - the authors are depicting Unicorn's leadership problem.

1 hour ago, Manchu said:

Shinjo Tatsuo aquitted himself well in Awakened (so did Hiruma Kogoe). Unicorn isn't being badly written - the authors are depicting Unicorn's leadership problem.

I think is less a leadership problem, and more a clash between “Unicorn’s (really weird) Foreign Customs” and “Traditional Rokugani Behavior”.

It’s not like Altansarnai thinks that breaking the deal is not a bad thing, it’s more like that she thinks that upholding a deal that goes against the core Unicorn Values is worse.

It’s not like Daiju’s don’t say anything to his daughter because he’s a bad leader, but because he does not know what to say, or worse, because he’s so in pain because they’re taking his precious daughter from him.

Same goes for Shahai. She was educated to be a Shugenja into the Unicorn, always riding the endless plains, not to be a courtier inside the deadly political trap that is Otosan Uchi. She does not know how to act because nobody prepared her for that, because nobody thought it would be necessary .

One thing is clear, and that is that the Unicorn are not your typical rokugani samurai, and that’s what the writers are trying to convey to us, that “we’re still foreigners” feeling. Even in the Outsiders fiction you can see this.

Your speculation about Daiyu casts him as allowing sentiment to impede his duty. And while that's just speculation as to Daiyu, it is canon as to Altansarnai. Yes, file it under being crappy samurai. But even by barbarian standards, it's also bad leadership. Staying "true to Unicorn values" at this point is just a matter of rationalizing selfish, emotional decision making.

As to Shahai, let's please don't move goal posts. Shahai is not expected to do the work of a diplomat. That's exactly why she shouldn't be in a position to decide what to divulge to the Seppun. That should have been negotiated by Ide courtiers and conveyed to her. It wasn't.

16 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Your speculation about Daiyu casts him as allowing sentiment to impede his duty. And while that's just speculation as to Daiyu, it is canon as to Altansarnai. Yes, file it under being crappy samurai. But even by barbarian standards, it's also bad leadership. Staying "true to Unicorn values" at this point is just a matter of rationalizing selfish, emotional decision making.

As to Shahai, let's please don't move goal posts. Shahai is not expected to do the work of a diplomat. That's exactly why she shouldn't be in a position to decide what to divulge to the Seppun. That should have been negotiated by Ide courtiers and conveyed to her. It wasn't.

And how is that different from the Ikoma tradition of never marrying out of the family. The Ki-Rin left at the dawn of the Empire and were absent for 700+ years during which the modern traditions of Rokugani samurai culture developed. They developed a parallel proto-samurai culture that took the basic elements that were being set out at the time of their departure and blended them with the traditions of the cultures that they interacted with during their travels. It is true to say she is a crappy Rokugani Samurai because that's not what she is. She is the Champion of the Unicorn Clan, a direct descendant (like the other Champions for their founding Kami) of the Lady Shinjo and also like her fellow clan champions second only the the Imperial Line in authority.

There is a certain cordiality that is expected of clans when dealing with each other and one of those is don't poke each other such that you break out into open hostility as that tends to provoke imperial attention, and that the last thing any of you want as there is only one force in the Empire that will guarantee you rally all six other clans against you and that's an Imperial decree. The Ikoma by their generous offer to marry the Ikoma Daimyo to Altansarnai are breaching one of the fundimental rules of etiquette (even with the flimsy excuse that Ikoma don't take their wives names) and implying that they are of greater importance than the direct descendant of the Kami Shinjo. Its a political power play that should never have been allowed by the Lion leadership (who are aware that the Unicorn are the one major military power they do not want a war with, especially when you are already in conflict with the Crane and a war on two fronts is the best way to lose a war you were already winning) and shows the lack of oversight that they Ikoma are working under.

As to the Shahai question what room was there for negotiation she was called to the capital by Imperial Decree, there is no well lets see what we can get the Emperor to agree to (see my earlier point about how best to get all 6 other clans marching on your lands) that was how they arrived at the existing compromise of the Emperor saying you are going to teach my Seppun Guard everything there is to know about Unicorn Magic and if you fail to do so than we will again see how long it takes for those Imperial Legions and the other 6 clans to show up on your doorstep and eradicate every trace of your potentially heretical (at least according to the Phoenix) traditions. For the Unicorn who spent centuries wandering through often hostile lands every child was a precious commodity to be treasured and protected until they were ready to take their place among the warriors and shugenja of the clan. And it was their close knit and protective nature of each other, the belief that nothing was more important than your family and your clan, that allowed them to survive the as often as not hostile cultures that they encountered while outside the Empire. Guarding their traditions was one of the chief protections they had and is not exactly an easy one to give up, any more than the Scorpion are quick to share the secret of their shadowbrands, or the Kitsu the power to communicate with the ancestors the way they do.

I'd just like to point out that we only see Daiyu in that scene from Shahai's perspective and her interpretation of the event were probably emotionally charged. Clearly from the story we can see she's an emotional person. I suspect Daiyu didn't give any instruction to Shahai because he didn't have time. It sounded to me like the message was delivered and Shahai was to return immediately with Seppun courtier. Daiyu didn't have time to do anything but react. From Shahai's description of him and their relationship he would have helped her if he could. Though she seems to be misinterpreting grief and shock for disinterest or aloofness in her recollection of the event. As Tadaji pointed out in his story there was no real negotiation to be had at this point. Nothing he was going to say would make this decree more merciful to the Unicorn. They were expecting censure. So there was really nothing they could have done if given more time without appearing guilty or defiant.

This is all Ide Tadaji's fault IMO for failing as a diplomat Though seriously he's in the capital still I assume. If anyone was going to attempt to give Shahai support from his clan I would imagine it would be Tadaji.

The desire to be with your loved ones is not unique to the Unicorn. Let's not forget that the betrothal also required Ikoma Anakazu to sacrifice his personal feelings. Nor is the duty to set aside one's personal feelings alien to the Unicorn. Shinjo Shono clearly understands what it means to be a samurai.

So let's put aside these absurd notions and look at the matter dispassionately. What is at stake is not really personal relationships or even land. The issue is the greater good of two clans. Lion exchanges its claim to some frontier territory to secure a close alliance with Unicorn, that is, Lion will not need those villages if it can trust Unicorn. Altansarnai is a poor leader who needs to be replaced by someone with a better grip on civilized principles, i.e. Shono. First, the Unicorn clan champion's mother would be the wife of the Ikoma daimyo. Second, the Unicorn clan champion could be married to his love match, a Matsu maiden. Secured by this double marriage alliance, the Lion and Unicorn would both be better off.

13 minutes ago, Manchu said:

The desire to be with your loved ones is not unique to the Unicorn. Let's not forget that the betrothal also required Ikoma Anakazu to sacrifice his personal feelings. Nor is the duty to set aside one's personal feelings alien to the Unicorn. Shinjo Shono clearly understands what it means to be a samurai.

So let's put aside these absurd notions and look at the matter dispassionately. What is at stake is not really personal relationships or even land. The issue is the greater good of two clans. Lion exchanges its claim to some frontier territory to secure a close alliance with Unicorn, that is, Lion will not need those villages if it can trust Unicorn. Altansarnai is a poor leader who needs to be replaced by someone with a better grip on civilized principles, i.e. Shono. First, the Unicorn clan champion's mother would be the wife of the Ikoma daimyo. Second, the Unicorn clan champion could be married to his love match, a Matsu maiden. Secured by this double marriage alliance, the Lion and Unicorn would both be better off.

And ignores the insult that the Ikoma Daimyo is being presented by the Lion as being of greater more important than the CHAMPION of the Unicorn clan. Even offering him as a match is the Lion trying to subtly tweak the Lion and exert their importance over the Unicorn. Its petty one upsmenship that is undeserving of the clan that claims to represent the soul of Bushido. If as their intention was to strengthen ties between the clans why was that not presented as part of the deal, be open about they want her to surrender her position so that a Lion Samuari-ko is the wife of the Champion. It also ignores the fact that the Matsu are equally if not better well known for their matriarchy so why was it not also expected that Shono would have joined the Matsu during his marriage?

True, let's stop all this about how dare they offer a mismatch to Shinjo's descendant? They don't, they offer an aging Daimyo a way to retire honorably (lady of the Ikoma) and let her heir takes her place while serving her clan.

if she had retired and went inkyo, no one would have cared it wasn't fitting for direct descendant of Shinjo's line

1 minute ago, Nitenman said:

True, let's stop all this about how dare they offer a mismatch to Shinjo's descendant? They don't, they offer an aging Daimyo a way to retire honorably (lady of the Ikoma) and let her heir takes her place while serving her clan.

if she had retired and went inkyo, no one would have cared it wasn't fitting for direct descendant of Shinjo's line

I wouldn't call her an aging Daimyo (she is likely in her late 30 to early 40 based on her having been together with Daiyu for 20 years) which would make her younger than Kisada, so how soon until we see a similar offer being made to Kisada. It also still ignores the tradition among every other clans of placing their notable families ahead of other clans and still giving up their position when marrying a spouse of a higher station (see Kaede and Toturi for a prime in clan example) so again the offering of an Ikoma as the prospective partner is still an insult as now they are saying they know better than the unicorn when their champion should retire.

8 hours ago, Manchu said:

Shinjo Tatsuo aquitted himself well in Awakened (so did Hiruma Kogoe). Unicorn isn't being badly written - the authors are depicting Unicorn's leadership problem.

I would argue that Curved Blades has some serious structure and plotting flaws that have been impacting the development of the Lion-Unicorn conflict storyline. They are not overwhelming problems but they do inform some of the more extreme disconnections that can be found when interpreting the narrative (the idea that the Unicorn could in any way have been "fooled" by the Ikoma and did not know their marriages were exclusively virilocal*, or how, conveniently, Dayu and Altensarnai are not married which seems to be tailor made to prevent the Akari/Anakazu issues and makes the Lion appear less sympathetic).

For instance, while my opinion is that the only possible conclusion from the textual analysis is that the Unicorn leadership is completely incompetent, I'm not sure that reading is, or was, originally intended.

* Which is really interesting considering their Matsu cohorts and that I doubt is going to last long into the storyline.

12 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

And ignores the insult that the Ikoma Daimyo is being presented by the Lion as being of greater more important than the CHAMPION of the Unicorn clan  .

I kinda want to remind you that 1) Daimyos are NOT an easily accessible commodity and being married to one is EXTREMELY prestigious 2) Lion broke THEIR marriage in hopes of establishing one with Altansarai.. Lion. Broke. Their. Word. It wasn't an easy decision and "one upsmenship". And most importantly - WHO ELSE WOULD QUALIFY? Akodo Daimyo - being the Champion - is out of the question because a) he is already married b) is controversial within Lion and they are not quite sure he is going to be one for long. Offering Matsu male is outright insulting with their matriarchy and all. Kitsu? Do they even exist? And even if they DO exist - yeah, right, marry off a premier of your ancestor-worshiping shugenja to not just anybody, but to Unicorn. Good luck with that. So they are left with only logical - and least insulting, because anything less than Daimyo is clearly is not good enough - option - Ikoma Daimyo. Compromise their tradition in addition to breaking his vow is too much. Unicorn have to sacrifice something of their own, don't you think?

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It also ignores the fact that the Matsu are equally if not better well known for their matriarchy so why was it not also expected that Shono would have joined the Matsu during his marriage?

Ehm, maybe I misread the fiction, but wasn't that implied?

All this empty talk of insults. Let's review the facts: Shinjo Altansarnai agreed to marry Ikoma Anakazu and she continued to agree to this arrangement even after she discovered it would mean abdicating as champion and leaving Unicorn lands to join the Ikoma family. In her own words: “Duty, love—they cannot always exist together. We must choose, and for my clan’s sake, I must choose peace. The contract is signed. We must keep our end of the deal.”

Nonetheless, after three years of negotiation and a completed treaty via marriage, Altansarnai changed her mind in the course of a few minutes of conversation. What was so special about that conversation? It wasn't any point made by Utaku Kamoko (who hates Lion for personal reasons) because we know they had the same talk many times before. It had to have been Ikoma Akari's willingness to commit jigai to protest a broken heart.

Let's point out here that Altansarnai was not aware of Akari's plight - something even she considers shocking: "Still, the woman's tale surprised her. How had she not been told of this?' Yet another Ide failure?

In any case, Altansarnai changed her mind based on emotion. She then immediately claimed it is because the Lion tricked her, as Kamoko argued. This is plainly a lie. Just a few minutes before, she rejected this argument and we know that she had also previously rejected it in conversations with Kamoko. Furthermore, we can see her true reasoning when she later sums up her new philosophy: "So you see, happiness makes difficult tasks easy. Thus we should pursue what we want." The notion that the marriage treaty was untenable because of some champion-daimyo status mismatch is nothing but a trumped up, ex post facto rationalization of selfish sentiment.

As to Shono's marriage: I was wrong about how that was supposed to work. While we don't have explicit confirmation that men marry into the Matsu family just as women marry into the Ikoma family, we do know that (a) Shono's betrothal to Matsu Mitsuko was part of the treaty and (b) had Shono married Mitsuko then Shinjo Yasamura 'would [have had] his estate," which presumably means he would be champion despite her younger son Shono being her apparent preference as heir. Even so, the result would work out to what I described: a Lion-Unicorn alliance doubly secured by the reigning champion's mother and younger brother married into Lion families.

2 hours ago, Araenon said:

I kinda want to remind you that 1) Daimyos are NOT an easily accessible commodity and being married to one is EXTREMELY prestigious 2) Lion broke THEIR marriage in hopes of establishing one with Altansarai.. Lion. Broke. Their. Word. It wasn't an easy decision and "one upsmenship". And most importantly - WHO ELSE WOULD QUALIFY? Akodo Daimyo - being the Champion - is out of the question because a) he is already married b) is controversial within Lion and they are not quite sure he is going to be one for long. Offering Matsu male is outright insulting with their matriarchy and all. Kitsu? Do they even exist? And even if they DO exist - yeah, right, marry off a premier of your ancestor-worshiping shugenja to not just anybody, but to Unicorn. Good luck with that. So they are left with only logical - and least insulting, because anything less than Daimyo is clearly is not good enough - option - Ikoma Daimyo. Compromise their tradition in addition to breaking his vow is too much. Unicorn have to sacrifice something of their own, don't you think?

You're right Daimyo are rare, Clan Champions are even more so (currently there are exactly 7 of them). And again ignores Manchu's point that the Lion were offering her a "dignified" way to retire thus implying that they have a right to dictate internal clan politics to the Unicorn. There were other suitable options that could have been served up aside from Champions such as siblings, or children of a Daimyo. Divorce is not actually a shameful thing for the Lion as it is not frowned on in Rokugan (or else there would have been far more fallout from him having put his wife aside for the marriage and the Unicorn would not be finding out about it when the ex-showed up in their garden) and the idea that if your duty to your champion and the clan is more important.

Further nothing said the offer needed to be for her to actually be part of the marriage. She has 2 sons and a daughter, so you could have easily done the family swap, her daughter marries into the Lion (say to the, at the time, unwed champion Arasou as this whole negotiation took place before his death) and a Lion married into the Unicorn and had the same effect.

2 hours ago, Araenon said:

Ehm, maybe I misread the fiction, but wasn't that implied?

We were told that Shono was succeeding her as Champion when his mother was "retired" by her marriage, or were the Lion planning on stealing two champions with their wedding tricks.

At the end of the day the story needed the idea of the failed marriage proposal as a tool to drive the story forward and initiate the conflict between the Unicron and Lion. The downside is that the Lion come out looking very scummy as they tried to manipulate their "bumpkin" cousins to exert their importance over them (note as part of the deal the Lion were being given Hisu Mori Toride which was part of the justification for why they invaded it a herd of Unicorn steeds as well as apparently stealing the Unicorns champion sure seems like a great deal for them) while the Unicorn are left looking like helpless fools with no clue what they are doing as the other clans pull the wool over their eyes. Where were their supposed allies the Crane who might have been able to point out the flaws in the deal.

55 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

You're right Daimyo are rare, Clan Champions are even more so (currently there are exactly 7 of them).

Can we stop for a moment and admire how even the Mantis do not recognize their own champion as legitimate?

We appreciate the honesty, afterall not every clan is meant for greatness and this just shows you understand your rightful place in Rokugan

34 minutes ago, mirrorcat said:

Can we stop for a moment and admire how even the Mantis do not recognize their own champion as legitimate?

We appreciate the honesty, afterall not every clan is meant for greatness and this just shows you understand your rightful place in Rokugan

In the Great clan context it is unfortunately at the moment correct. The Mantis will rise eventually, at which point that number will be amended to the proper 8, but in the context I am talking and the current prevailing Imperial standard Yoritomo must wait to demonstrate why his is the Greatest Clan still.

I just want to point out, Matsu brides always keeping their name only applies to marriages within the Lion. When marrying other Clans they follow the usual rules of status.

There were at least two Matsu who married into the Hida line. One was the mother of the man who would found the band of ronin that would eventually become the Mantis and the other was regent during the Great Famine.

I'm still mostly thinking this 'Ikoma grooms always keep their name' was just something the Lion made up so they'd have an excuse to attack the Unicorn.

3 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

I just want to point out, Matsu brides always keeping their name only applies to marriages within the Lion. When marrying other Clans they follow the usual rules of status.

There were at least two Matsu who married into the Hida line. One was the mother of the man who would found the band of ronin that would eventually become the Mantis and the other was regent during the Great Famine.

I'm still mostly thinking this 'Ikoma grooms always keep their name' was just something the Lion made up so they'd have an excuse to attack the Unicorn.

Exactly it falls in line with the couples take the name of the higher stationed individual unless specifically negotiated otherwise. So Ikoma Daimyo does not outrank Unicorn Champion (outside of the Lion's elevated sense of self worth).

8 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

You're right Daimyo are rare, Clan Champions are even more so (currently there are exactly 7 of them). And again ignores Manchu's point that the Lion were offering her a "dignified" way to retire thus implying that they have a right to dictate internal clan politics to the Unicorn. There were other suitable options that could have been served up aside from Champions such as siblings, or children of a Daimyo. Divorce is not actually a shameful thing for the Lion as it is not frowned on in Rokugan (or else there would have been far more fallout from him having put his wife aside for the marriage and the Unicorn would not be finding out about it when the ex-showed up in their garden) and the idea that if your duty to your champion and the clan is more important.

OFFERING. Not ORDERING. They are not dictating anything and everything was up to debate and negotiate. And Unicorn drop their ball there. Lion didn't force them to put their signature or stamp or whatever. And no, divorces are NEVER without frowning - you think Phoenix don't mind that their deal was - BAM! - dissolved?

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Further nothing said the offer needed to be for her to actually be part of the marriage. She has 2 sons and a daughter, so you could have easily done the family swap, her daughter marries into the Lion (say to the, at the time, unwed champion Arasou as this whole negotiation took place before his death) and a Lion married into the Unicorn and had the same effect.

No there wouldn't be the same effect. You said it yourself: Clan Champion > anyone else. Even her daughters and sons who may - or may NOT - be the next champion. And marrying young Arasou to a woman who is almost past her childbearing age? Ehm, no thanks?

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At the end of the day the story needed the idea of the failed marriage proposal as a tool to drive the story forward and initiate the conflict between the Unicron and Lion. The downside is that the Lion come out looking very scummy as they tried to manipulate their "bumpkin" cousins to exert their importance over them (note as part of the deal the Lion were being given Hisu Mori Toride which was part of the justification for why they invaded it a herd of Unicorn steeds as well as apparently stealing the Unicorns champion sure seems like a great deal for them) while the Unicorn are left looking like helpless fools with no clue what they are doing as the other clans pull the wool over their eyes.

No, they don't look scummy at all. Political maneuvering is just as practical and respected way of doing things. Everyone do it - Phoenix do it, Dragon do it, even CRAB do it for heaven's sake (with less frequency, of course). And to the Lion's credit, it wasn't Scorpion-style thin text on the sides of a contract or Crane-style economic and political strong-arming. Everything was open, they clearly stated their desires - which were rather greedy, i'll give you that - but Unicorn ACCEPTED. Not because it's the sneaky Lion "pulled wool over their eyes", but because either Unicorn is utterly incompetent in diplomatic affairs - and in that case, it's THEIR fault, because come on! 200 years and they STILL didn't know marriage customs of a rival Great Clan - or they were ACTUALLY OK WITH WHOLE THING and only poor phoenix ex-wife persuaded Clan Champion to just say "F this, I do whatever i want" and break the engagement. In which case, Lion is still not really to blame

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Where were their supposed allies the Crane who might have been able to point out the flaws in the deal.

WHAT?!!! You are trying to blame THEM as well? Yeah, right, because OBVIOUSLY Unicorn should run by them every agreement with OTHER CLANS.

The story started a little awkwardly, but it was worth it. The last scene where not!Daigotsu tried to flirt with the completely oblivious Shahai was JUST KISS ALREADY tier. After the similarly super-shippy Toturi/Kaede fic, I can say with confidence that we have some top-quality romance in New5R.

Also, I really like the new Shahai art.

13 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

The story started a little awkwardly, but it was worth it. The last scene where not!Daigotsu tried to flirt with the completely oblivious Shahai was JUST KISS ALREADY tier. After the similarly super-shippy Toturi/Kaede fic, I can say with confidence that we have some top-quality romance in New5R.

Also, I really like the new Shahai art.

cough Tsukune X Kosori cough