Its not a situation that makes anybody look particularly good. Lot of that going around.

My only disagreement with that is that one side looks bad from incompetence and the other from maliciousness.

1 hour ago, codegnave said:

Forcing a higher status woman to join your clan to get a political benefit doesn't necessitate the woman's party being ignorant. I would imagine that they have used this tradition to the detriment of others in the past, with or without abusing the ignorance of others.

Its still in bad faith if the goal is an unfair political advantage.

What is all this talk of “forcing”? Similar to the phrase “bad faith,” this is being thrown around without justification. An offer was negotiated and accepted. Then one party unilaterally reneged.

The goal of diplomacy is always political advantage. To be frank, someone taking over forAltansarnai might have been to the Unicorn’s benefit.

On 7/25/2018 at 6:51 PM, Shiba Gunichi said:

See, what I've been enjoying about this?

Is how little I like Shahai by the end of it. And not in an "she's evil! EEEEEEEEVIL!" way, but rather in a "what did you think being a samurai entailed?" sort of way. She's a big ball of selfishness wrapped up in flimsy self-justifications. Reading this makes me understand her siblings' reluctance when Altansarnai suggested they make a dagger for her as well.

No offense, but you say "What did you think being a samurai entailed?" as though she was given the choice. The only choices anyone in Rokugan really has are "Live the role you were born in," "Go against the system and get executed," and "Screw around with Maho and become an evil maniac." I feel like the pieces of fiction that FFG has published have done a good job of showing that Rokugan is a pretty terrible place to actually live in, even if it makes for a very interesting setting for stories and games. This story doesn't show Shahai wanting to bask in the privileges that being a samurai entails--it shows her simply wanting to be with her family and to ride free like she once did in Unicorn lands. Instead, she is stuffed into a gilded cage and forced to choose between taking actions that (she feels, perhaps incorrectly) will make all her loved ones hate her and ones that'll disobey the emperor, likely leading to her execution and big problems for her clan. I fail to see how her situation qualifies as typical teenage angst. All the poor kid wants is some choice in her life--that's not selfish, that's something everyone deserves. But it's also something that Rokugani society is designed to deny to virtually every segment of society. It makes perfect sense to me that some people, such as Shahai and Daisetsu, would be opposed to this.

By the way, I'm not complaining that Rokugan is an incredibly dysfunctional society--it makes for some very compelling fiction. But criticizing characters for saying "Hey, our dysfunctional society has brought harm to me or my loved ones" makes zero sense.

Gently reminds the Lion of the soldiers who were trampled so thoroughly by the Unicron's Ancestors that their names were stricken from history. Keep smack talking though, it's fine. Certainly not something that would ever happen again >.> not with a glorious and decisive leader like Akodo Toturi at the helm. He's what? Oh... he's not at the helm? Hmmm.....

It's not really surprising that Lions act more dishonestly than Scorpions and then claim that it's everyone else that's dishonorable.

“The Unicorn were forced ...”

”The Unicorn were tricked ...”

First, note that people “defending” Unicorn assume they are weak enough to be forced or stupid enough to be tricked (or both). There was neither force nor deception. The marriage alliance was openly negotiated and freely accepted. Altansarnai betrayed her word and shamed her family and her clan. This fact is acknowledged by her own son.

Second, note that the actual motive of Unicorn “defenders” is smearing Lion. There is no basis in fact for such insults so these attacks are couched as sympathy for Unicorn. But, as noted, this supposed sympathy is backhanded at best.

Third, note that Altansarnai not only shamed herself and her clan by dishonorably breaking her word to the Lion but also that there are other examples of Unicorn ineptitude. For example, negotiating teaching the Seppun meishodo to avoid it being banned and yet making no provision to instruct the actual samurai-ko selected to do the job.

The truth is plain and simple: Unicorn leadership is badly lacking. Everyone knows that with regard to Shahai this piss poor leadership will probably lead to terrible problems down the road, far worse than a few skirmishes between Lion and Unicorn. A leader who understood what she was promising, or lived up to her promises, or followed through on promises would go a long way not only for the Unicorn Clan but for the general safety and well-being of the Empire. Unfortunately, the Unicorn are not led by such a woman.

Oh and BTW at least up to this point in the new continuity even Matsu Tsuko has demonstrated more discretion and wise judgment than Shinjo Altansarnai.

17 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Oh and BTW at least up to this point in the new continuity even Matsu Tsuko has demonstrated more discretion and wise judgment than Shinjo Altansarnai.

You mean when she made a unilateral decision to release the most valuable hostage that her clan could have taken from the Crane because she was sad her boyfriend died.

Do we have to have the same arguments in every thread? I'm sure there's already a thread or seven out there about the marriage if you guys really insist on continuing to beat that dead horse.

I was kind of hoping that we could use the thread titled "Heart of the Garden" to discuss the story "Heart of the Garden." But maybe that's just me.

And wtf is up with that last post from Manchu?

You can't stop it. This thread is about to turn into a full on #schmanchunichi

It's about to go down in 3.........2.........1

4 hours ago, Manchu said:

First, note that people “defending” Unicorn assume they are weak enough to be forced or stupid enough to be tricked (or both).

Just replace 'Tom' with 'the Lion'. (The second speech balloon isn't really relevant, but I find it somewhat amusing in the new context.)

Also, isn't righteousness (truth and justice) a tenet of Bushido. Shouldn't the Lion, paragons of Bushido that they are, have made sure the Unicorn were aware of what they were agreeing to before they finalized the deal. And where's the justice of separating a wife and mother from her child and husband. The Ikoma Daimyo was already married when the Lion offered him up as an eligible candidate to be wed.

4 minutes ago, shineyorkboy said:

Also, isn't righteousness (truth and justice) a tenet of Bushido. Shouldn't the Lion, paragons of Bushido that they are, have made sure the Unicorn were aware of what they were agreeing to before they finalized the deal. And where's the justice of separating a wife and mother from her child and husband. The Ikoma Daimyo was already married when the Lion offered him up as an eligible candidate to be wed.

Say what now? If the Unicorn were not aware of anything it was because they purposefully chose to ignore it or do any kind of due diligence.

The Unicorn chose to do no background checks on any of the Lion suitors.
The Unicorn chose not to check if their marriage alliance would hurt diplomatic relations with other clans (The Lion were in fact willing to break their political ties to an opponent of the Unicorn by casting aside the Phoenix wife. Do you want a more earnest proof of how the Lion were acting in good will towards the Unicorn? And the Unicorn after breaking up the negotiated treaty weren't even able to capitalize on that to improve relations with the Phoenix)
The Unicorn did not confirm marriage customs.

Basically the Unicorn seem to have done no negotiating whatsoever

I mean the depth of diplomatic incomptence shown by the Unicorn in all this process is absolutely staggering. How do these guys manage to not drive their provinces into the ground when they are clearly not able to function on some of the most basic human levels.

6 hours ago, Mandalore525 said:

This story doesn't show Shahai wanting to bask in the privileges that being a samurai entails--it shows her simply wanting to be with her family and to ride free like she once did in Unicorn lands.

Funny, I'm looking at it and it shows her as having absolutely no faith in her family until Daisetsu points out the blindingly obvious to her.

6 hours ago, Mandalore525 said:

Instead, she is stuffed into a gilded cage and forced to choose between taking actions that (she feels, perhaps incorrectly) will make all her loved ones hate her and ones that'll disobey the emperor, likely leading to her execution and big problems for her clan.

If not her, then somebody else.

6 hours ago, Mandalore525 said:

I fail to see how her situation qualifies as typical teenage angst.

Clearly.

6 hours ago, Mandalore525 said:

All the poor kid wants is some choice in her life--that's not selfish, that's something everyone deserves. But it's also something that Rokugani society is designed to deny to virtually every segment of society. It makes perfect sense to me that some people, such as Shahai and Daisetsu, would be opposed to this.

But the society you're talking about is the one she grew up in. The one where her father cannot marry Altansarnai, the one where literally everyone around her is hosed by circumstance. The one where, as the Iuchi daimyo's daughter, that is a greater than zero chance that she'd be married into, say, the Agasha or Hida family and never ride the plains again.

Shahai has no business viewing this the way you or I would, because, as a daimyo's daughter, she has hardly been insulated from the crappy things about the society she inhabits. Indeed, her misapprehensions about her family's regard for her indicate that, if anything, she's entirely too conditioned to look for the worst in her situations.

As Manchu said prior to rolling off the rails at a thousand miles per hour, the story engages my empathy, certainly, but not my sympathy.

2 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I'm not sure who you were aiming that at, but it's not an okay thing to just drop into a conversation.

2 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

And wtf is up with that last post from Manchu?

In defense of Manchu, he was just replying to Schmoozies’ post here , a very dark turn in Satsume’s death.

Also, we all know that Manchu tends to get “in character” while discussing these things. It’s just fun, I doubt he has the intent of offending anybody.

And yeah, I can’t also believe that I’m defending Manchu.

Also, I think we all can agree that:

a) Regarding the Unicorn no-marriage, everybody is right and Manchu is wrong.

b) Manchu will never admit he’s wrong.

So let’s move on...

So, what do you all think (or hope) it will happen in the next episode of Forbidden City High School?

5 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I'm not sure who you were aiming that at, but it's not an okay thing to just drop into a conversation.

It was aimed at the person who dreamed up the scenario in question and posted it on this forum.

I agree that it’s not okay. I mean, these are merely fictional characters but there ought to be a limit to the nasty things said about them for the sake of argument.

2 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

everybody is right and Manchu is wrong

LOL I know you guys always wish it was that simple. If I post it, no matter what it is, there are a couple of you who will automatically take the opposite position. I generally find it fun (esp regarding the esteemed Imperial Chancellor) but that doesn’t mean I am just arguing for the sake of arguing. The Unicorn, Altansarnai in particular, did actually screw up badly regarding the Ikoma marriage alliance. If you can’t or won’t listen to me, read @Suzume Chikahisa ‘s post above. If you need an in-setting voice, keep in mind there is at least one Unicorn who makes the argument, too.

If you wonder why Shahai is in such a dumb situation in the Capital, look no further than the same leadership that failed to figure out what it was promising and then broke its promise on sentimental grounds.

13 minutes ago, Manchu said:

It was aimed at the person who dreamed up the scenario in question and posted it on this forum.

Unrelated discussion on a different topic about speculation for turns the story could take so not relevant to the discussion in question, and frankly insulting that you would use it as a personal attack

There is a pattern to this “speculation” of mischaracterizing personalities and situations to advance bad faith arguments about them. Matsu Tsuko did not release Doji Kuwanan because “she was sad her boyfriend died.” The Lion did not force Altansarnai into a marriage alliance. And there are no grounds whatsoever for speculating that Doji Satsume was a perverted monster justifiably murdered by a character who has only spoke highly of him. Rein in the absurdity.

Now, now, let’s not forget we’re all here to have fun.

We’re talking about a fictional world with fictional characters. In a game where you take sides with one of seven factions, I think inter-clan rivalry is not only expected, but one of the appeals of the game... as long as is made in good faith.

A little bit of teasing and poking, just for fun, is ok, like it is talking in character or roleplaying your clan.

Manchu does a wonderful work of maintaining the Library Fiction, and he’s a very contributing user of this community. I do not think for a moment that it was his intention to insult somebody.

Also, Manchu, I don’t oppose everything you say, but maybe I tease you from time to time, again just for the sake of fun.

I think we’re all rational adults here (except for Ishi Tonu, he only got the “adult” part), who are capable of keeping an engaging discussion like this one healthy and respectful.

I adopt the persona of a po-faced diplomat for the sake of defending Kakita Yoshi’s (gleaming, perfect) honor but even I grow weary of outright nonsense seemingly posted to simply have a go. My apologies to @Schmoozies if I misread his intent.

On topic, Shahai’s situation would be easier if she had competent clan leaders but at least some of the issue is her own personality, which seems somewhat self-absorbed and spoiled. It is a little refreshing, in an odd sense, to see a princess behaving ... uh? believably?

13 hours ago, Manchu said:

Quote

at least    up to this point in the new continuity even Matsu Tsuko has demonstrated more dis  cretion and wise jud  gment than Shinjo Altans  arnai. 

Esteemed Lion, i'd advice to refrain from consuming any more sake for today since it seems the alchool may be affecting your judgement.

Lady Tsuko has certantly displayed a variety of traits but discretion and sound judgement were not amongst them.

Some of us are genuinely puzzled on how she mantains such an highly influential position within your clan and is even allowed to comand military operation when she is so clearly emotionally unstable.

One would need to appeal the wisdom of the Kami to even figure out what reason drove her to such a state.

Doji Hotaru killed her bethrothed while defending against an unprovoked attack on the city, he fell victim to his own carelessness

I assure you, I am not evoking her as a paragon of restraint and composure! The comparison was not meant to compliment Tsuko but rather to demonstrate that even Tsuko is more capable of reaching responsible, dispassionate conclusions.

Maybe im confused, but didnt the crane attack the city first? I thought they took it over to get food(instead of just like, asking for help or something else rational)

To be clear, no one in these stories make good decisions. Its kind of the point imo

47 minutes ago, codegnave said:

Maybe im confused, but didnt the crane attack the city first? I thought they took it over to get food(instead of just like, asking for help or something else rational)

To be clear, no one in these stories make good decisions. Its kind of the point imo

From what i recall the Crane won the city from Lion many years prior the tsunami and now the Lion clan is trying to take it back (since their opponent has been weakened) with the excuse that they were the original owners and it was stolen from them through dishonorable means ( in the first piece of fiction it was mentioned that the Crane used some stratagem to defeat them but despite that the emperor still recognized their victory and legitimacy over the city)

I must admit to some actual alarm over...inferences, or musings, or whatever you want to call them, about Doji Satsume being...let's call it "grossly inappropriate" in his behavior towards Hotaru, Shizue or anyone else. As the writer of both "Her Father's Daughter" and "A Crane Takes Flight", I'm going to go on record as saying that that sort of leap is entirely unwarranted and needs to be put to rest so that it never comes up again.

Accordingly, you can take this as canon--Doji Satsume was a profoundly demanding father when it came to Hotaru. He set standards for her performance of her duties as a future Clan Champion that were far greater than whatever standards he set for either Kuwanan or Shizue. He did so out of what he believed to be his duty to his family, clan and Empire to ensure the Crane had the best leader possible once he passed down the succession. When it came to Hotaru, he was uncompromising, setting expectations for her performance and achievements that were difficult for her to meet. When it came to Kuwanan or Shizue, he didn't set the same sorts of expectations for them because he really didn't HAVE expectations for them, or at least didn't have expectations of the same scope as he did for Hotaru.

And that's it. There was absolutely nothing inappropriate or violent about his relationship with his children (or with his wife, whose suicide was probably as much about her as it was about him). So, for those who might be tempted to raise this again in the future, please don't, because THAT'S the inappropriate thing happening here--suggesting this sort of thing in the first place.

I trust this matter has now been resolved and never needs to be brought up or discussed again.