3 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

I must admit to some actual alarm over...inferences, or musings, or whatever you want to call them, about Doji Satsume being...let's call it "grossly inappropriate" in his behavior towards Hotaru, Shizue or anyone else. As the writer of both "Her Father's Daughter" and "A Crane Takes Flight", I'm going to go on record as saying that that sort of leap is entirely unwarranted and needs to be put to rest so that it never comes up again.

Accordingly, you can take this as canon--Doji Satsume was a profoundly demanding father when it came to Hotaru. He set standards for her performance of her duties as a future Clan Champion that were far greater than whatever standards he set for either Kuwanan or Shizue. He did so out of what he believed to be his duty to his family, clan and Empire to ensure the Crane had the best leader possible once he passed down the succession. When it came to Hotaru, he was uncompromising, setting expectations for her performance and achievements that were difficult for her to meet. When it came to Kuwanan or Shizue, he didn't set the same sorts of expectations for them because he really didn't HAVE expectations for them, or at least didn't have expectations of the same scope as he did for Hotaru.

And that's it. There was absolutely nothing inappropriate or violent about his relationship with his children (or with his wife, whose suicide was probably as much about her as it was about him). So, for those who might be tempted to raise this again in the future, please don't, because THAT'S the inappropriate thing happening here--suggesting this sort of thing in the first place.

I trust this matter has now been resolved and never needs to be brought up or discussed again.

I will apologize for that as they were not intended to be taken as an actual realistic proposal (thus the darkest Timeline tag line to start it off) but was intended to be an illustration of things that could be done to take his death different direction than the expected the Scorpion did it.

15 hours ago, Manchu said:

I adopt the persona of a po-faced diplomat for the sake of defending Kakita Yoshi’s (gleaming, perfect) honor but even I grow weary of outright nonsense seemingly posted to simply have a go. My apologies to @Schmoozies if I misread his intent.

On topic, Shahai’s situation would be easier if she had competent clan leaders but at least some of the issue is her own personality, which seems somewhat self-absorbed and spoiled. It is a little refreshing, in an odd sense, to see a princess behaving ... uh? believably?

Dayu, beside seemingly lacking in leadership skill also seems to be a very bad father, at least as Shahai goes.

Seriously, not giving your daughter a heads up? No pep talk, no reassurances once her fates as a hostage is fait acccompli?

(which reminds me that Shono, Haruko and Yasamura also seem to have a... strained relationship with Shahai. Those are not auspcious signs.)

Love your work so much! And thanks for clearing that up. Really enjoying the Doji family dynamics right now. I was sad to see Hoturi gone, but Hotaru is an excellent replacement for this fan.

It’s hard to know how much to blame (or praise) samurai-class parents because many of their children are raised at least as much if not almost altogether by retainers and servants. Doji Satsume seems to have taken a very active role in Hotaru’s upbringing, although that is certainly exceptional. Was Iuchi Daiyu as close to Shahai as he appears to be with his children by Altansarnai? I would guess that Shahai is more the product of retainers and servants as she comes off as someone used to ordering around and manipulating social inferiors - whereas her behavior to Daisetsu leaves something to be desired, even for a Unicorn maiden (contrast with Shizue).

45 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Was  Iuchi Daiyu as close to Shahai as he appears to be with his children by Altansarnai? I would guess that Shahai is more the product of retainers and servants as she comes off as someone used to ordering around and manipulating social  inferiors - whereas her behavior to Daisetsu leaves something to  be desired, even for a Unicorn maiden (contrast with Shizue). 

She looked at her father, who once would have held her close, protecting her from the teasing of her half siblings, tending to the pain of a scraped knee, or reassuring her after a wicked dream.

I think it's fair to say Daiyu had a close and loving relationship to his daughter. How much notice did the Unicorn have before she was taken from them? There's no indication in Family Duty that they've been given any notice. The Imperials may have shown up at the Iuchi's door with no more than the briefest of warnings to take Daiyu's daughter away.

What could he do, knowing that to attempt to stop this hostage taking would have likely meant the death of her in any case as well as the destruction of his family and clan? He acted like the proper samurai, showing no emotion, only duty to his emperor. Let's not read any further into his stoicism than that.

Edit: Wow, this profanity filter is ridiculous.

3 hours ago, deraforia said:

She looked at her father, who once would have held her close, protecting her from the teasing of her half siblings, tending to the pain of a scraped knee, or reassuring her after a wicked dream.

I think it's fair to say Daiyu had a close and loving relationship to his daughter.

Very much in keeping with what we know of the Unicorn, really- whatever else you can say about them, they’re the ones who only had each other for long stretches of their journey as the Ki-Rin. Part of why Shahai frustrates me so, honestly.

Makes me wonder how much of her behavior here is indicative of her conduct at home-as has been noted, her half-siblings seem to regard her as a bit... odd.

Wonder how much of that is just “half-sisters are different,” how much is her being an Iuchi while the others are Shinjo, and how much, if any, is something less pleasant.

3 hours ago, deraforia said:

Edit: Wow, this profanity filter is ridiculous.

A-fraggin’-men.

I agree that Daiyu’s emotionlessness was proper. What’s interesting is that Shahai holds it against him.

Out of curisosity, what is the correct approach for unicorn here? How would you (all ) have handled the request?

just to recap the situation:

- You are on the brink of war with Lion

- The Emperor requests specifically for Shahai to come to the capital as "guest" to teach the Seppun how to defend from your arcane art (further contact may be restricted or purposely delayed)

-Unicorn does not seem to possess any relevant influence at court, aside from standard delegations

- Phoenix has already issued a traveling ban and likely closed borders after the Djinn incident (that is btw, still roaming free in your territory)

- "Something" is predating near your south border villages and is apparently capable of traveling vasr distances in the span of a couple of days and is intelligent enough to evade your trackers

- there is a newly discovered Naga village within your territory (or in a spooky forest between Crab land and yours) and the first contact, while relatively cordial, may have resulted in unintended hostilities

-----

this should be all.... Man, i wouldn't want to deal with this mess frankly

Iuchi Daiyu should have instructed Shahai to either cooperate or not cooperate with the Seppun. It should not be up to her to figure out whether it’s okay for her to divulge the secrets of meishodo.

As to what else: don’t antagonize Lion with shameful broken promises, don’t create a diplomatic scandal with the Naga by making hasty decisions, and don’t endanger the Phoenix with foreign demons.

12 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Iuchi Daiyu should have instructed Shahai to either cooperate or not cooperate with the Seppun. It should not be up to her to figure out whether it’s okay for her to divulge the secrets of meishodo.

As to what else: don’t antagonize Lion with shameful broken promises, don’t create a diplomatic scandal with the Naga by making hasty decisions, and don’t endanger the Phoenix with foreign demons.

I'd also add

"don't bring cursed artifacts with enraged foreign demons sealed in them to the capital during a public festivity with thousands of people celebrating in the streets" (seriously who thought this was a good idea?)

that said all these wise advice only aim to prevent the issues, i was wondering how to deal with the current precarious situation where they have already manifested

The Lion offered a settlement in view of Altansarnai’s disgraceful behavior. Negotiation could easily proceed along that line of inquiry, possibly with Phoenix mediating. Asking for Phoenix mediation could go hand in hand with a rapprochement regarding meishodo. It’s too early to know what can be done with the Naga.

1 hour ago, mirrorcat said:

Out of curisosity, what is the correct approach for unicorn here? How would you (all ) have handled the request?

just to recap the situation:

- You are on the brink of war with Lion

- The Emperor requests specifically for Shahai to come to the capital as "guest" to teach the Seppun how to defend from your arcane art (further contact may be restricted or purposely delayed)

-Unicorn does not seem to possess any relevant influence at court, aside from standard delegations

- Phoenix has already issued a traveling ban and likely closed borders after the Djinn incident (that is btw, still roaming free in your territory)

- "Something" is predating near your south border villages and is apparently capable of traveling vasr distances in the span of a couple of days and is intelligent enough to evade your trackers

- there is a newly discovered Naga village within your territory (or in a spooky forest between Crab land and yours) and the first contact, while relatively cordial, may have resulted in unintended hostilities

-----

this should be all.... Man, i wouldn't want to deal with this mess frankly

- So are the Crane. Time to cooperate with them militarily

- Instruct her to teach Seppun without outright sabotaging the process, for once. Giving Imperials a reason to harass your clan while you are preparing for war is not wise. But at the same time not to be forthright and going out of your way for them in those instructions. Think of a boring-as-all-**** Math teacher who has to teach students, but who is not really into it. And while she is doing her job...

- ...cooperate with Crane politically. Ask them to do their court juju to ease the tension with whole breaking of engagement thing and also to try to do something with Shahai. Like negotiate family visits or to propose some "exchange of expertise" group of specialized shugenja (like Kuni/Asahina/Agasha) so she doesn't look like the only one "betraying" her clan . Of course, Crane will ask for compensation, but opening second front in their war with Lion will cover any "favors" they provide

- One problem at a time. The Phoenix were adamant in their denunciation of meishodo, so there's no helping in their "retaliation", but at least they do not go to war for now. First the Lion, then the Phoenix

- Well, send somebody to investigate. If investigation reveals Naga - tell the Imperial family. It's their problem now. Unicorn already have problems with PR to mire their hands in dealing with giant snakepeople. If Imperials are OK with them? Cool, send diplomats. If not? Well, time to start regular patrols near forest. But not doing anything else for a while. War with Lion, remember?

As for Shahai, only Heaven knows what prevents Iuchi Daiyu from simply writing a letter to her.

7 hours ago, mirrorcat said:

Out of curisosity, what is the correct approach for unicorn here? How would you (all ) have handled the request?

just to recap the situation:

- You are on the brink of war with Lion

- The Emperor requests specifically for Shahai to come to the capital as "guest" to teach the Seppun how to defend from your arcane art (further contact may be restricted or purposely delayed)

-Unicorn does not seem to possess any relevant influence at court, aside from standard delegations

- Phoenix has already issued a traveling ban and likely closed borders after the Djinn incident (that is btw, still roaming free in your territory)

- "Something" is predating near your south border villages and is apparently capable of traveling vasr distances in the span of a couple of days and is intelligent enough to evade your trackers

- there is a newly discovered Naga village within your territory (or in a spooky forest between Crab land and yours) and the first contact, while relatively cordial, may have resulted in unintended hostilities

-----

this should be all.... Man, i wouldn't want to deal with this mess frankly

@Araenon 's responses are largely wise... for my own additions:

- You are on the brink of war with Lion: Get ready. As noted, the Crane are already at war with them- on the opposite end of their territory. Get ready to capitalize. See who else might be willing to apply either military (not likely, the clans seem busy) or diplomatic pressure- the Dragon have an agreement with the Unicorn that indicates fairly close relations, after all. See if you can offer the Dragon as honest brokers.

-Shahai may be the only one requested, but provide the kid with some clear guidance- or at least personal absolution for her role in the matter. You have at least the time it takes her to get her summons, go grab her stuff, and hop on a horse. Moreover, kick yourself, then wipe some sweat away that at least meishodo isn't outright banned- the Phoenix had been squawking about it for a while now, and they're the recognized authority on all things magical in a culture where appeals to authority are accepted. You should have had a game plan for what to do if the Emperor listened to them. See if any Ide have cultivated any contacts in Otosan Uchi that might be able to reach her.

-Ask the Ide what the **** they've been doing in the past three centuries. Then see what you can do for the Crane to earn some leverage from them. He may be a fool, but the Chancellor is a Kakita. Of course, the Crane will need something in return, but right now they're so beat down that literally anything you offer would probably be a relief. A second front for the Lion to deal with, food supplies (routed through the Dragon lands if necessary), caravan guards to free up more of their forces to deal with, say, their pirate-ravaged coastline...

- Ignore the Phoenix for now. They've done about as much damage as they're likely to, short of entering the war on the side of the Lion. Don't give them any cause. Deal with them later. Or maybe see about souring their relations with the Lion, if possible.

- Weird monster crap? Yeah, better see how chummy you can get with the Crab. Maybe offer to smooth things over between them and the Crane.

- Naga botchery has already gone down. Secure your Shinomen borders and brace for impact.

1 hour ago, Manchu said:

As for Shahai, only Heaven knows what prevents Iuchi Daiyu from simply writing a letter to her.

How do we know he hasn't?

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

Iuchi Daiyu should have instructed Shahai to either cooperate or not cooperate with the Seppun. It should not be up to her to figure out whether it’s okay for her to divulge the secrets of meishodo.

As to what else: don’t antagonize Lion with shameful broken promises, don’t create a diplomatic scandal with the Naga by making hasty decisions, and don’t endanger the Phoenix with foreign demons.

You really can't blame the Unicorn for the Naga debacle: that was all on the Crab, and mostly Shuichi at that.

2 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

How do we know he hasn't?

You mean, aside from her not receiving any letter from him? Or are you insinuating [the Scorpion] are intercepting any correspondence? That would be another one of those “the conspirators would have to assume Unicorn is that stupid” type of conspiracies, like assuming the Ikoma planned that Ide would neither know nor do anything at all to find out about their marriage customs.

2 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

You really can't blame the Unicorn for the Naga debacle: that was all on the Crab, and mostly Shuichi at that.

Of course I won’t argue with you about Crab being at fault. My comment goes more to hoping that Shinjo Tatsuo understood he needed to offer himself as a replacement for Hiruma Kogoe.

33 minutes ago, Manchu said:

You mean, aside from her not receiving any letter from him? Or are you insinuating [the Scorpion] are intercepting any correspondence? That would be another one of those “the conspirators would have to assume Unicorn is that stupid” type of conspiracies, like assuming the Ikoma planned that Ide would neither know nor do anything at all to find out about their marriage customs.

Since she left, a minor war has started between Daiyu and Otosan Uchi. Any letter would either have to cross the lines of battle or go round them. Going round the north involves going through the Dragon mountains. Going south involves quite a major detour.

Of course I won’t argue with you about Crab being at fault. My comment goes more to hoping that Shinjo Tatsuo understood he needed to offer himself as a replacement for Hiruma Kogoe.

Unfortunately, at that point Tatsuo is in an invidious position. If he goes back to the Naga, he's technically staying within the lands of the Crab, despite being asked to leave by a senior member of that clan (I'd give reasonable odds that Shuichi is slightly higher rank). Also, despite his insistence on withdrawing Kogoe's self-hostaging after the fact being really bad diplomacy, Shuichi is not wrong about why she shouldn't have done so in the first place. If Tatsuo stays, he's committing all of those faults knowlingly, rather than Kogoe's lack of forethought.

On the other had, not staying, as you point out, is a diplomatic incident with a new species .

Whatever he does at that moment is wrong one way or another.

Will a skirmish or two at Hisu Mori Mura effectively disconnect the Unicorn from the Capital? If so, Unicorn has made a real blunder provoking Lion.

1 hour ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Whatever he does at that moment is wrong one way or another.

Welcome to Rokugan! ?

11 hours ago, mirrorcat said:

Out of curisosity, what is the correct approach for unicorn here? How would you (all ) have handled the request?

just to recap the situation:

- You are on the brink of war with Lion

- The Emperor requests specifically for Shahai to come to the capital as "guest" to teach the Seppun how to defend from your arcane art (further contact may be restricted or purposely delayed)

-Unicorn does not seem to possess any relevant influence at court, aside from standard delegations

- Phoenix has already issued a traveling ban and likely closed borders after the Djinn incident (that is btw, still roaming free in your territory)

- "Something" is predating near your south border villages and is apparently capable of traveling vasr distances in the span of a couple of days and is intelligent enough to evade your trackers

- there is a newly discovered Naga village within your territory (or in a spooky forest between Crab land and yours) and the first contact, while relatively cordial, may have resulted in unintended hostilities

-----

this should be all.... Man, i wouldn't want to deal with this mess frankly

- The Lion is on actual war with the Crane. Securing their back was probably the main reason why they wanted an alliance with the Unicorn in the first place. Asking quid pro quo from the Crane would be Diplomacy 101 and the Crane are not even in a position to make onerous demands.

- Taking Shahai hostage was the result of Phoenix machination of which the Unicorn should have been, at the very least, superficially aware. It was not something completely unexpected it was communicated to the Unicorn Embassador, and Ide Daimyo, Tadaji. If the Unicorn, the premiere horse breeder in Rokugan, have not availed their primary diplomat with capable relay messengers to handle diplomatic communication between their domain and the Imperial capital then we have yet another example of the Clan's leadership failling miserably.

Furthemore it's not like someone pulled a bag over Shahai's head and took her to Otosan Uchi during the night. An Imperial delegation was sent to Shro Iuchi with the Imperial edict to escort Shahai back. Diplomatic delegation on offical business are not suppsed to just appear at a family's seat of power unnanounced, having casually slipped through the domain without being met and escorted by patrolling scouts or wardens. Presumably, even if Shahai was not allowed to take Unicorn companions she was allowed to gather belonging fit for her station as a Daimyo's daughter, presumptive heir, and honored Imperial guest for a leisurly ride back to the Capital.

At any point during all this process she should have been taken aside and briefed on how to handle the situation. Personally I feel that cautios cooperation should have been the tack followed. There is no point in antagonizing the Seppun, instruct them earnestly but at a slow pace. Try to gain their confidence.

-Speaking of the Phoenix, the Lion were willing to slightly screw the Phoenix over the Unicorn. They were probably counting on Kaede and Toturi's marriage being to enough to smooth any ill feeling for reneguing on the Asako, but the fact is that not only were willing to ally with a Clan the Phoenix are at odds with they were also willing to throw them under the bus. And again, there is no hints of the Unicorn trying to capitalize on that. Spin the fact that Altensarnai stood up for the Asako. Even if you can't fully turn the Phoenix on your side put some crack on their alliance with the Lion and try to gain some foothold with them. No way are the Asako happy that the Lion were willing to throw one of them under the bus and they can advocate with or against the Isawa.

-The Naga at this point are a non-issue in regards to the Lion and I don't there is even enough intelligence about them to influence Unicorn decision making. They are also much closer to the Crab. Patrol the northenr edge of the Shinomen and let some else handle the problem.

-Finally, the Ide seem to be full of useless fat. Maybe it's time to hand them a wakizashi and start trimming.

Thank you to @Araenon @Shiba Gunichi @Suzume Chikahisa for your insight (as well as all the others that contributed to the discussion)

Lion conflict

> Ally with Crane-> earn favor-> form alliance-> stomp the feral cat -> Gain better political presence

yes, that seems to be the simplest and most profitable short term plan... Can't wait to see how Scorp ruins it (wouldn't it be hilariously non-sensical if they framed the ponies for Doji Satsume's death?)

Emperor's Request

> Unicorn Leaders are dumb

> Instruct the kid to only provide basic knowledge, without compromising the clan's secret teachings

I think we may need an Ide POV on what is going on with Shahai's situation. It is puzzling how the girl was sent there apparently without instructions and alone (surely the daughter of a damyo is entitled at least a small escort or a couple of personal handmaidens); even if the emmissary accompanied the damyo back home and demanded the girl to depart immediately, there would be a small timeframe during "preparations" to inform her somehow.

It is possible that the Seppun is keeping her from receiving guests and is intercepting letters thought i can't see a valid reason for them to do so (unless this is a very elaborate courting technique from Daisetsu)

Phoenix Incident and distrust

> Nothing to be done here, this was bound to happen, at the very least we can still legaly practice our art.

> they have done all the damage they could, the situation is unlikely to defenerate any further

A pity but i admit there are more urgent matter to deal with atm.

that said, given the rate of which they are changing Council members, it is hard to predict how they will approach the matter

First contact with Naga

> the scouts failed, let Crab deal with the aftermath

to be perfectly honest, i can't really blame the scouts; they negotiated at the best of their abilites given the circumstances but this is a prime example of a situation where the plot demanded for things to happen this way to create a misunderstanding .

On a similiar note i don't think crab will do anything about it, they already have Lost incursions to deal with in their own land.The Naga are more likely to target unicorn driven by sentiment of betrayal.

On 7/29/2018 at 10:24 AM, mirrorcat said:

Out of curisosity, what is the correct approach for unicorn here? How would you (all ) have handled the request?

I think teaching the basics with a focus on defending against any techniques that might be good for assassination is a good way to build good will with the Imperial Court.

Meanwhile you can show the Lion how pathetic their army is in the face of superior horse archer tactics.

The writers are limited in how long the stories can be. Unfortunately the plots holes for the Unicorn have ended up making a couple of their important characters look bad.