2 hours ago, 987654321 said:

My two thoughts on this:

First of all, #DaisetsuForHeir #TheEmperorWeNeed #MakeRokuganGreatAgain

Second of all, Daisetshahaiis real.

Why settle for the lesser man when we already a brilliant Heir of outstanding talent and remarkable acumen? The older Prince has been trained by the greatest duelist in Rokugan and was educated by the most illustious scholars the imperial court had to offer.

Prince Daisetsu spends his time in fruitless endevours, exposing himself to unnecessary dangers and has yet to collect any significant achievement while the true Heir has already attracted a large retinue of followers and proven his martial prowess by besting the Ruby champion in single combat! (and possibly even the Emerald Champion on the very next day!)

20 minutes ago, mirrorcat said:

Why settle for the lesser man when we already a brilliant Heir of outstanding talent and remarkable acumen? The older Prince has been trained by the greatest duelist in Rokugan and was educated by the most illustious scholars the imperial court had to offer.

Prince Daisetsu spends his time in fruitless endevours, exposing himself to unnecessary dangers and has yet to collect any significant achievement while the true Heir has already attracted a large retinue of followers and proven his martial prowess by besting the Ruby champion in single combat! (and possibly even the Emerald Champion on the very next day!)

I'm just waiting for the "True Heir" to challenge a bakemono chieftain to a duel and almost get killed by arrows for his troubles .

Clearly Kisada should be emperor. I don't think we'll see a stronger candidate. I think Taka has found a solution to Crab's problems for now, but I was so hoping the solution would be Kisada or Yakamo marching up to the capital for some explosive political debates.

1 hour ago, codegnave said:

Her family's tradition of keeping their magic secret didnt disappear when the imperial court demanded that knowledge.

Didn't it? Again, her family should have decided if they wanted to answer the request in good faith or what to hold back, and instructed her appropriately. It's not something that should be left up to the initiative of a teenager.

The Unicorn seem like they came back to Rokugan yesterday not a century ago. Like none of them understand how politics even works.

13 minutes ago, phillos said:

Clearly Kisada should be emperor. I don't think we'll see a stronger candidate. I think Taka has found a solution to Crab's problems for now, but I was so hoping the solution would be Kisada or Yakamo marching up to the capital for some explosive political debates.

Just remember the last time Kisada paid an unexpected visit to the Emperor it resulted in Kisada being "gifted" with a fine sword for his troubles.

19 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Just remember the last time Kisada paid an unexpected visit to the Emperor it resulted in Kisada being "gifted" with a fine sword for his troubles.

Well to be fair he was fighting Fu Leng who had possessed Hantei Sotorii.

1.) Come on, everyone would be rooting for Kisada in that fight. Sotorii isn't winning any supporters this go around either from the community it seems.

2.) If you are gonna fall in single combat, I think getting stabbed by Fu Leng himself is a fitting defeat for The Great Bear. Also he still didn't kill Kisada and the Crab made off with the Hantei Ancestral Sword.

All that being said (as a Crab fan) I'd gladly read that part of the story again

38 minutes ago, HamHamJ2 said:

Didn't it? Again, her family should have decided if they wanted to answer the request in good faith or what to hold back, and instructed her appropriately. It's not something that should be left up to the initiative of a teenager.

The Unicorn seem like they came back to Rokugan yesterday not a century ago. Like none of them understand how politics even works.

One would hope they could, yes. However since they clearly didnt the simplest explanation would be they couldnt.

Perhaps it more complicated than that, we'll see in the future i hope, but until we get her fathers perspective we have no basis to asume ineptitude.

On 7/25/2018 at 1:57 PM, Tabris2k said:

now we’ll have to put up with @Manchu ‘s rambling about the lack of manners of the Unicorn

Putting one's own judgments into another's mouth demonstrates weak character. You hardly needed me to point out that Shahai is a coarse as a burlap feedbag.

Since it appears to have been missed:

21 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Not sure how much of this being too hard on her is old baggage (I really wasn't all that interested in her in the old days, for good or ill), but she really rocks the obnoxious teenager vibe a little too well for my tastes (in fairness, she is an obnoxious teenager whose mother was taken from her and whose family relations have always apparently been odd).

13 hours ago, Horvagab said:

Eh, it's what I like about the story. She's a teenager who's technically an adult now, and got responsibiities far outweighing her experience, while also ruining any plans she had. Teenagers gonna teenage. It's what makes the story interesting for me.

Oh, make no mistake, I love the story- I just don't like Shahai. Early days yet, maybe she'll do something really cool with what Daisetsu has shown her (I mean, he's definitely even more of a prisoner of circumstance than she is, and has been since birth, so it makes sense he knows the rules better), but right now? Right now I see a selfish little twerp who's going to follow where's she's lead while thinking it's her own initiative- and depending on what Daisetsu wants and where he leads, that could be either a sad limitation on her future growth, or an actual catastrophe.

My not liking her doesn't make her a bad character. Far from it.

And besides, as I pointed out back when I first declared Kakita Yoshi a fool, we're not in the part of the story where anyone makes anything better.

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That said, I do find it interesting that the Seppun chose.... a young, barely out of gempukku female to teach them, rather than experienced sensei. She is daimyo-blood, but that only means she's more important, but not more useful.

Those with possible motives to pull these strings-

1. The Scorpion (keeping the Unicorn from looking 100% legit in the name of Scheming)

2. The Phoenix ("but we wanted it baaaaaaaaaaaannned! ")

3. The Unicorn. No. Really. ("Send your emotionally unstable daughter with no clear orders, maybe they'll come to assume it can't be taught!")

4. The Ikoma. These kittycats have been pulling shady crap for a lot of the story thus far- like, say, trying to snake the Unicorn Clan Champion into the Lion via a legal technicality and trusting the Unicorn to not do their homework, or trying to kick Toturi upstairs so the Lion don't have his restraining hand anywhere near the bridle.

5. If they exist, the Kolat. ("Seriously, how can ANYONE believe in an Imperial Line that makes these sorts of decisions?")

6. Daisetsu. ("Send someone who'll need a friend.")

7. And many, many more!

7 hours ago, codegnave said:

I think you have some serious misunderstandings about literary tropes, teenagers, and how imperfect the knowledge each character has in relation to the reader.

Nope. I understand them fine. But that doesn't mean much in terms of what I'm talking about.

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She is trapped in a problem with no correct answer, classic feudal conflict of duty to my immediate lord(and close family) and duty to THEIR lord. Those duties are in conflict with each other. Her family's tradition of keeping their magic secret didnt disappear when the imperial court demanded that knowledge.

Close family she spends much of the fiction thinking don't care about her. (Until Daisetsu pointedly gesticulates toward the obvious)

As for the family tradition of keeping their magic secret... running up against the polite fiction that Rokugan centers on, that the Emperor's will is divine writ. Her duties are clear- keep the Unicorn safe by honoring Imperial law. The consequences of her doing as instructed are purely personal- because if not her, then someone else would be in this position.

The consequences of screwing this up fall upon her clan as a whole.

Of course "teenagers gonna teenage." Doesn't mean I have to like them for it.

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Likewise, any unicorn is going to cognizant of thier precarious position in the empire. They have little power at court and less social standing elsewhere.

And behavior like Shahai's certainly contributes! Rokugan is a monumentally awful society with absurd rules of conduct, but if you follow those, even people who loathe you have to at least find a reasonable pretext to give you trouble.

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Furthermore, the rapidly changing mystical and economic landscape is pushing normally conservative nobles and magicians to hasty actions and extremes. The situation in toshi ranbo could erupt into war at any time, upending an already abnormal political situation. How is she to know if the unicorn are about to be defying the emporers will in a months time or not? She is a hostage in more ways than one.

Since she's in Otosan Uchi, not sure what Toshi Ranbo has to do with anything- she's an Imperial hostage, not a Lion, Crane, or what have you. And as far as defying the Emperor's will? That's clearly not much of a concern for her.

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In short: cut the kid a break.

It should be abundantly clear by now that that's not happening.

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Shes in a no win situation, whatever she does her family loses.

But she's in a situation to determine whether that loss takes the form of becoming more a part of Rokugan, or being cast out from it. The Unicorn can ramble about "curved blades" all they want, but they chose to come back to the Empire. So far we've seen precious little sign of their accommodating the xenophobes they came home to, apart from sticking around and the only Ide we've gotten a POV from thus far.

6 hours ago, HamHamJ2 said:

Didn't it? Again, her family should have decided if they wanted to answer the request in good faith or what to hold back, and instructed her appropriately. It's not something that should be left up to the initiative of a teenager.

The Unicorn seem like they came back to Rokugan yesterday not a century ago. Like none of them understand how politics even works.

6 hours ago, codegnave said:

One would hope they could, yes. However since they clearly didnt the simplest explanation would be they couldnt.

Perhaps it more complicated than that, we'll see in the future i hope, but until we get her fathers perspective we have no basis to asume ineptitude.

Shades of Altansarnai's wedding negotiations with the Ikoma... remember that? Remember how the Unicorn apparently couldn't be bothered to do a little homework on Ikoma marriage traditions before signing an agreement involving the single most important living person in their clan?

It seems to me that in this new version of the tale FFG is introducing elements of several eras in this version of the DaiXXtsu/Shahai romance. First of all, I see some elements of Iuchiban uses in the prince. As he saids somewhat pointedly to his yojimbo, he is only a second son and, therefore, unimportant in the long run. It was only when his older brother got near death, then recovered miraculously that Otomo Jama's story took a dark turn leading to Iuchiban. The flavor text on Shahai's card, sort of reminds us of the Heartless, too. Also, there are very light touches of the Seinen/Shibatsu situation.

In any case, I don't remember Iuchiban being mentioned anywhere in this iteration of the setting (I might have missed it, though), so I wonder they are planning to make Daisetsu both Daigotsu AND Iuchiban. Also if there is no X Clan Coup this time around, this situation might be the cause of the end of the Hantei line, leading to a Clan War.

10 hours ago, HamHamJ2 said:

Didn't it? Again, her family should have decided if they wanted to answer the request in good faith or what to hold back, and instructed her appropriately. It's not something that should be left up to the initiative of a teenager.

The Unicorn seem like they came back to Rokugan yesterday not a century ago. Like none of them understand how politics even works.

Yeah, Unicorn leadership is coming across as completely incompetent on multiple levels.

Not naive, not out of their depth, just plain incompetent. And considering that as opposed to the three new and untested Champions (Toturi, Hotaru, Tsukune) Altansarnai is supposed to be well established that's all the more damning.

****, even if they had returned yesterday I would expect them to be more politically adept than they have showned themselves to be. Nomadic and semi-nomadic societies tend to be incredibly sophisticated on a political level if only by their necessity to navigate their settled neighbours be it in trade or warfare.

I really hope that the Unicorn storyline tackles that, because if this is supposed to be "normal" Unicorn leadership then I, for one, will have serious problems with suspension of disbelief about the ability of to Unicorn to have survived in Rokugan for 200 years or for their continued survival going forward.

Im way too tired to respond fully, bit uea i do want unicorn to do ok, and i like their society better than rokugans lol

So that colored my argument, sorry ifi was rude about it

Unicorn leadership is very bad. We've known this since their Clan Champion made herself a liar before the entire Empire.

I agree that Shahai is not portrayed sympathetically. This is probably intentional. The author did engage my empathy, however. I understand why Shahai is the way she is, even if it doesn't make me like her. I suspect this is setting up Shahai to be manipulated by Daisetsu.

Folks complain about how dumb clan leadership is, but you're all peasants and Gaijin and they don't care what you think.

10 hours ago, Manchu said:

Unicorn leadership is very bad. We've known this since their Clan Champion made herself a liar before the entire Empire.

I agree that Shahai is not portrayed sympathetically. This is probably intentional. The author did engage my empathy, however. I understand why Shahai is the way she is, even if it doesn't make me like her. I suspect this is setting up Shahai to be manipulated by Daisetsu.

Well maybe if some smug Lions hadn't tried to pull a fast one over on 'er, tryin' to get a Clan Champion to lose everything and become subservient to the Ikoma Daimyo.... If you want us to honor an agreement, try making it an honorable agreement.

You're just making it worse by reminding everyone that the Unicorn Champion made a promise without bothering to understand its implications, which would have been open and obvious to any civilized person in Rokugan.

55 minutes ago, Manchu said:

You're just making it worse by reminding everyone that the Unicorn Champion made a promise without bothering to understand its implications, which would have been open and obvious to any civilized person in Rokugan.

Except that the Ikoma are the only family who follows the "tradition" that the woman always joins her husbands household, whereas in all other cases, unless specifically negotiated otherwise, it is the lower ranked person who enters the higher ranked person's family. The implication being that the Ikoma, in their own arrogance and self worth, are the highest rank of all and that she should have felt privileged to be welcomed into their family.

And I know we've been over this a few times but I will re-iterate there is no shame in breaking off an engagement, she as the Champion has every right to determine that the wedding was not in the interests of her clan and break the engagement. She would be required to return any wedding gifts she may have been given, and their may have been protracted negotiations for any future considerations that may have been due as part of the wedding but there is no dishonor, especially in light of the Ikoma's false pretenses in presenting the offer.

Again, civilized people would be aware of the custom. The fact that NO ONE in the Unicorn Clan could advise their champion of this open fact is disgraceful.

How you can defend a Clan Champion breaking her word as to a political matter, and especially because of mere sentiment, is beyond me. Even her own son can acknowledge that her honor and the Clan’s honor are diminished by her whimsical “leadership.”

39 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Again, civilized people would be aware of the custom. The fact that NO ONE in the Unicorn Clan could advise their champion of this open fact is disgraceful.

How you can defend a Clan Champion breaking her word as to a political matter, and especially because of mere sentiment, is beyond me. Even her own son can acknowledge that her honor and the Clan’s honor are diminished by her whimsical “leadership.”

Or just dont let the lions be dicks because the unicorn were late in finding that out.

And using the term 'civilized' is really gross.

3 minutes ago, codegnave said:

And using the term 'civilized' is really gross.

Next to a purple mon - of course.

Two hundred years hardly counts as “late” by any reasonable standard of an effective diplomatic service.

4 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Next to a purple mon - of course.

Two hundred years hardly counts as “late” by any reasonable standard of an effective diplomatic service.

If you are roleplaying than this is not really an appropriate place to do so unannounced

Im not arguing that the unicorn could or should have known better, it obviously would have benefited them, but that doesnt change the bad faith nature of the offer. To say nothing of the pre-state nature of rokugani politics and information decemination.

Its pretty disingenuous to blame the victim of a scam while defending the perp.

We are talking about Rokugan. There is a such thing as Civilization with a capital C in this setting.

Characterizing a marriage offer to the Ikoma daimyo as a scam is patently absurd. There was no bad faith on the Lion’s part.

2 minutes ago, Manchu said:

We are talking about Rokugan. There is a such thing as Civilization with a capital C in this setting.

Characterizing a marriage offer to the Ikoma daimyo as a scam is patently absurd. There was no bad faith on the Lion’s part.

Im pretty sure that the capital c civilization is human vs monsters. If not then thats uhhhhh messed up.

Then why are they the only clan we have heard of that still has a bizarrely out of place chauvinistic marriage policy? They are either wildly out of place in the setting, or they do it for political gain.

No, Civilization with a Capital C is the Empire. It is not just “human” considering its rulers descend from kami. In that sense, it is also divine.

Ikoma’s marriage customs were not invented to trick Unicorn. It is hard to imagine Lion diplomats making plans contingent on Unicorn being that utterly ignorant.

1 minute ago, Manchu said:

No, Civilization with a Capital C is the Empire. It is not just “human” considering its rulers descend from kami. In that sense, it is also divine.

Ikoma’s marriage customs were not invented to trick Unicorn. It is hard to imagine Lion diplomats making plans contingent on Unicorn being that utterly ignorant.

Forcing a higher status woman to join your clan to get a political benefit doesn't necessitate the woman's party being ignorant. I would imagine that they have used this tradition to the detriment of others in the past, with or without abusing the ignorance of others.

Its still in bad faith if the goal is an unfair political advantage.