3 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Or not, the fact that we've seen no reference in any of the Scorpion fiction of any concern that anyone is looking into Satsume's death is also a hint that they were not involved.

Or some Scorpion were involved, and not every Scorpion know.

25 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

Or some Scorpion were involved, and not every Scorpion know.

I would follow that thinking except that the majority of stories we've seen have been from the perspective of mostly high ranking or influential characters that would have been likely involved or at the least making the calls to follow through on those sorts of things. Not saying its not possible, plausible deniability and all, but it seems short sighted for the Scorpion to have done it as all it does is call attention to themselves as potential culprits. Further from a story telling stance that is the most obvious and boring route to go with. Its the Butler Did It trope all over again

I still stand by my original assessment he really did die of natural causes and the empire is being thrown into a tizzy over it for all the wrong reasons.

If they are going to have anyone be the killer I hope they go with a Dark Horse left field response that no one would expect.

Kakita Toshimoko or Yoshi were behind it to avenge their beloved sister that was driven to suicide by his mistreatment of her. They bide their time until his retirement from the post of Clan Champion as they could not conscience shaming the Celestial Order by sanctioning the murder of their Champion but once he had stepped down as Champion the wheels were set in motion and an agent was dispatched to see that he was sent to his Kharmic destiny sooner rather than later.

Ikoma Ujiaki did it. He knew that it would throw the Crane into disarray and divert their attention to the natural suspect the Scorpion while his clan was at war with the Crane. Lion have done fairly well in the fall out from his death, they are pushing the Crane on multiple front in their ongoing disagreement, the Emperor, who may have been advised by the previous Emerald Champion to take steps to curtail their aggression, has been silent on the ongoing conflict, and they have installed one of their own as the new Emerald Champion (and as an added bonus this has split the focus of Toturi with these new duties leaving Ujiaki free to pursue his own current agenda with minimal interference).

*****WARNING THIS IS THE NOT PRETTY DARKEST TIMELINE OPTION*************

Doji Shizue did it. While she was adopted into Satsume's household following her parents passing she was never truly one of his children and he had a darker inclination for keeping her so close to him. After years of enduring his attentions she developed a split personality to deal with the trauma she endured. The affable Shizue that she presents to the outside world masks an angrier and vengeance driven personality, that for convenience I'll call Euzihs that plotted the demise of her tormentor. Euzihs visited her "father" days before of his death and ensured that the Tea they shared contained an added ingredient that she had spent years developing a resistance to. The poison slowly worked its way through his system until in his sleep he breathed his last. Free from the memory of her Tormentor Euzihs fades into the background to let Shizue continue her life, ever watchful for when she needs to step out to protect Shizue from a world that wants to torment her.

54 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

I would follow that thinking except that the majority of stories we've seen have been from the perspective of mostly high ranking or influential characters that would have been likely involved or at the least making the calls to follow through on those sorts of things. Not saying its not possible, plausible deniability and all, but it seems short sighted for the Scorpion to have done it as all it does is call attention to themselves as potential culprits. Further from a story telling stance that is the most obvious and boring route to go with. Its the Butler Did It trope all over again

I still stand by my original assessment he really did die of natural causes and the empire is being thrown into a tizzy over it for all the wrong reasons.

If they are going to have anyone be the killer I hope they go with a Dark Horse left field response that no one would expect.

Kakita Toshimoko or Yoshi were behind it to avenge their beloved sister that was driven to suicide by his mistreatment of her. They bide their time until his retirement from the post of Clan Champion as they could not conscience shaming the Celestial Order by sanctioning the murder of their Champion but once he had stepped down as Champion the wheels were set in motion and an agent was dispatched to see that he was sent to his Kharmic destiny sooner rather than later.

Ikoma Ujiaki did it. He knew that it would throw the Crane into disarray and divert their attention to the natural suspect the Scorpion while his clan was at war with the Crane. Lion have done fairly well in the fall out from his death, they are pushing the Crane on multiple front in their ongoing disagreement, the Emperor, who may have been advised by the previous Emerald Champion to take steps to curtail their aggression, has been silent on the ongoing conflict, and they have installed one of their own as the new Emerald Champion (and as an added bonus this has split the focus of Toturi with these new duties leaving Ujiaki free to pursue his own current agenda with minimal interference).

*****WARNING THIS IS THE NOT PRETTY DARKEST TIMELINE OPTION*************

Doji Shizue did it. While she was adopted into Satsume's household following her parents passing she was never truly one of his children and he had a darker inclination for keeping her so close to him. After years of enduring his attentions she developed a split personality to deal with the trauma she endured. The affable Shizue that she presents to the outside world masks an angrier and vengeance driven personality, that for convenience I'll call Euzihs that plotted the demise of her tormentor. Euzihs visited her "father" days before of his death and ensured that the Tea they shared contained an added ingredient that she had spent years developing a resistance to. The poison slowly worked its way through his system until in his sleep he breathed his last. Free from the memory of her Tormentor Euzihs fades into the background to let Shizue continue her life, ever watchful for when she needs to step out to protect Shizue from a world that wants to torment her.

Well... that got dark at the end.

Personally, though, I think he was poisoned... but not intentionally. Doji Satsume died from eating improperly prepared fugu , and now everyone else is losing their minds over it because the chef was too scared for their own life to admit they'd accidently killed the Emerald Champion.

And since autopsy isn't a thing in Rokugan (if memory serves), there's no way to find out what his last meal was.

53 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Further from a story telling stance that is the most obvious and boring route to go with. Its the Butler Did It trope all over again.

Oh, I also think that the Scorpion didn’t do it. I was just arguing that the fact that we haven’t seen any reference in the Scorp fiction is no hint whatsoever that they’re not involved. True, we have seen fictions from the POV of very high-ranked Scorpions (Shoju, Kachiko), that surely should know about their clan involvement with Satsume’s death. But there’s always the possibility that, say, certain Yogo Daimyo, name’s Junzo, killed Satsume behind Shoju’s back, for example.

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

If they are going to have anyone be the killer I hope they go with a Dark Horse left field response that no one would expect.

If this is the case, my guess is Daisetsu.

8 minutes ago, Mangod said:

Well... that got dark at the end.

Personally, though, I think he was poisoned... but not intentionally. Doji Satsume died from eating improperly prepared fugu , and now everyone else is losing their minds over it because the chef was too scared for their own life to admit they'd accidently killed the Emerald Champion.

And since autopsy isn't a thing in Rokugan (if memory serves), there's no way to find out what his last meal was.

I warned you.

Maybe if they allowed a Kitsuki to lead the investigation as they are known to use Eta for that sort of work, but given the rivalry between the Crane and Dragon likely not going to happen

18 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

I warned you.

Maybe if they allowed a Kitsuki to lead the investigation as they are known to use Eta for that sort of work, but given the rivalry between the Crane and Dragon likely not going to happen

There are rumors of Kuni Shugenja engaging in that so called “Au-teep-sie” thing you’re talking about, but surely even the brutish Crab would be above such high risk of tainting their soul.

3 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

If this is the case, my guess is Daisetsu.

Or perhaps his brother and disciple

Afterall the thing about being the greatest duelist under the heaven is that...there can only be one

and his winning streak had to start somewhere...

--

jokes aside are there any likely culprits with the means and motivation to kill him?

- Crane: They are dealing with the aftermath and nothing in the fiction provide useful info (aside for Hotaru briefly suspecting Kachiko) or a general indication of kinslaying

- Phoenix: Unless that water Kami was way more pissed with the Crane than we realized, i don't see it happening

- Lion: if they're going to be framed soon (speculation) it's likely they it wans't them (btw, why don't they simply ask one of their shugenja to channel Satsume's spirit and ask him directly?)

-Unicorn : no real benefit nor means to do it

- Dragon: probably have some other things to focus on

- Crab: killing someone without raising any alarm while remaining undiscovered after the fact? That's totally Crab way of doing things

-Scorpion: They haveboth means and motive. I still do find the lack of reference to the murder in their conversation to be an indication of their involvement in it

-Seppun: maybe he started questioning the Imperial divinity after training the heir and was swiftly disposed of?

- Suicide: After failing to teach the Heir both the proper way of Bushido and swordmanship, he decided to wash away this shame with his own blood

-Mantis: while they proved quite capable of infiltrating high- profile locations there is no concrete evidence against them (FOR NOW)

- Void/Nothing: same as above (plus there was a corpse left behind, wasn't there?)

- Sect/Kolat/etc : plausible but not yet sufficently explored to allow a proper examination

You're missing:

- Heimin: Satsume was killed by a servant with a grudge. Poison is relatively easy to administer if you have a trusted position in the household.

As for the Lion questioning his spirit, that's honestly a major plot problem in any setting where you can talk to the dead. How do you have any murder mysteries at all? Some of them you can wave away by saying the people involved don't have the money or access necessary to get those services, but not in the case of an Emerald Champion. Here I think you have to lean on "we don't call up the dead for frivolous purposes" . . . and then somehow class murder investigation as frivolous.

2 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

You're missing:

- Heimin: Satsume was killed by a servant with a grudge. Poison is relatively easy to administer if you have a trusted position in the household.

As for the Lion questioning his spirit, that's honestly a major plot problem in any setting where you can talk to the dead. How do you have any murder mysteries at all? Some of them you can wave away by saying the people involved don't have the money or access necessary to get those services, but not in the case of an Emerald Champion. Here I think you have to lean on "we don't call up the dead for frivolous purposes" . . . and then somehow class murder investigation as frivolous.

It was previously written off as the possible bias of a Kitsu intermediary meant that the other clans were distrustful of the testimony and there was always the possibility that they may misrepresent what the spirits were telling them.

3 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

It was previously written off as the possible bias of a Kitsu intermediary meant that the other clans were distrustful of the testimony and there was always the possibility that they may misrepresent what the spirits were telling them.

That could work.

or maybe they can only channel the spirits of their ancestors and refuse to share their art with other clans

53 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

As for the Lion questioning his spirit, that's honestly a major plot problem in any setting where you can talk to the dead. How do you have any murder mysteries at all? Some of them you can wave away by saying the people involved don't have the money or access necessary to get those services, but not in the case of an Emerald Champion. Here I think you have to lean on "we don't call up the dead for frivolous purposes" . . . and then somehow class murder investigation as frivolous.

Well, I don't know about how things work now, but in the old setting... you know, I'll just quote the relevant part. From Emerald Empire , 4th Ed, page 151, on the subject of early legal developments:

Quote

Another early problem was with the involvement of the kami. In the beginning of the Empire, the testimony of supernatural beings was often accepted as fact in Rokugani court. The elemental kami presumably had no reason to lie and could serve as a set of eyes in a place where no human might be. Shugenja often called on the Earth kami from the scene of a crime to testify on the identity of the criminal. The Kitsu shugenja of the Lion Clan specialized in magic concerning the ancestors, and would often ask the spirits of the victims to testify through them, accusing their killers from beyond the grave.

Unfortunately, the elemental kami do not view reality in the same way as a normal human. Their testimony was often vague or confusing, subject to interpretation or even manipulation by the shugenja who summoned them. They sometimes singled out the wrong criminal or even a completely innocent person. In one famous trial, a Lion and a Scorpion were in dispute over the murder of a famous Lion general, and their conflict had become important enough to be brought before the court of the Emperor himself. The Kitsu shugenja summoned the soul of their dead general to place blame on the Scorpion murderers. After the ancestor had given his testimony, the Scorpion produced the Lion general, still alive, and declared the Lion’s ancestral magic suspect. The Emperor agreed, and after that trial the use of magical testimony and evidence was forbidden by Imperial decree.

If this still holds true, then it could explain why they haven't just asked Satsume's ghost who killed him.

57 minutes ago, Mangod said:

Well, I don't know about how things work now, but in the old setting... you know, I'll just quote the relevant part. From Emerald Empire , 4th Ed, page 151, on the subject of early legal developments:

If this still holds true, then it could explain why they haven't just asked Satsume's ghost who killed him.

I know I've been writing under the assumption that this still holds true. The testimony of spirits can be distorted by the fact that they're, well, spirits, and not (or no longer) of the mortal realm, and the fact that intermediaries are required to obtain and report it. It's really not much different than a Scorpion samurai showing up in Court to provide testimony "on behalf of Doji Hotaru". It's probably not unreasonable there'd be at least some doubts regarding this person's testimony on behalf of not just someone from another clan, but also a Champion from another clan. Substitute "Kitsu spiritcaller" for Scorpion samurai and "spirit of the dead Emerald Champion" for "Doji Hotaru" and you have essentially the same problem.

Not to mention that, from a dramatic point of view, being able to talk to the spirit of every dead person to find out how they died would suck as far as storytelling goes.

If Doji Satsume’s death is a red herring then it is a poor one. Only three people in the Empire seem concerned about it: Doji Kuwanan, Kakita Yoshi, and Matsu Tsuko. The last two are not even directly concerned. Kakita Yoshi is more concerned by Doji Hotaru’s laxity as Clan Champion (rightly so). And Matsu Tsuko only cares because she is suspicious that someone was manipulating her into killing Doji Kuwanan.

I think Doji Satsume was murdered - by someone who calculated that Hotaru would be disinclined to investigate. Eliminating Kuwanan would end any real chance the truth would be discovered. The murderer or conspirators thus took advantage of Hotaru slaying Akodo Arasou and Matsu Tsuko’s resulting wrath. Bizarrely, Tsuko did not take the bait and Kuwanan still lives to uncover the plot.