Just now, Manchu said:

Oh it's just that your user avatar is a pirate flag.

My card says Mantis Clan so I'm covered

Covered in shame perhaps!

And stolen Crane koku...

Just now, Manchu said:

Covered in shame perhaps!

Nope we all have some form of Glory, just because those of you on your high horses choose to ignore the plight of the one clan that literally stands between the Empire and an unimaginable Hellscape that wants nothing more to corrupt every man, woman and child it comes in contact with because you don't like his fashion sense and are still upset that they didn't kow tow enough too you doesn't make you right.

We're just filling a sorely needed gap in the crab economy the best way we know how.

And that is what the other clans bicker about...

Just now, Saibot said:

And that is what the other clans bicker about...

Nah this is just Manchu and i continuing a long standing and spirited debate.

2 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

And stolen Crane koku...

We prefer the term liberated.

6 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

And stolen Crane koku...

As I said, shameful display! Poor white-haired Crane children going without. Especially after the Osari Plains are finally restored to their rightful owners.

5 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Nah this is just Manchu and i continuing a long standing and spirited debate.

The Crab have done a fine job for centuries. What has changed? Have their skills declined? Or their vigilance? Surely if there was some kind of cosmological crisis, the Elemental Council could enlighten us all. Yasuki Taka seems to be wheedling resources out of the Imperial coffers as if the Chancellor is one more peasant to be cheated. I am more concerned about hungry Crane children (who may become orphans soon, on top of everything else).

2 minutes ago, Manchu said:

The Crab have done a fine job for centuries. What has changed? Have their skills declined? Or their vigilance? Surely if there was some kind of cosmological crisis, the Elemental Council could enlighten us all. Yasuki Taka seems to be wheedling resources out of the Imperial coffers as if the Chancellor is one more peasant to be cheated. I am more concerned about hungry Crane children.

I would agree with you if the Clans were still fulfilling their duties to the Crab to offer the supplies they are due when required. But hey its not like anyone can just wander down to the crab lands and take a look at this giant wall they have and see the monsters roaming around on the other side that are attacking the Crab on a constant bases, no that would be silly. After all have to think of those Crane peasants who might be scared my a merchant caravan wandering through their lands.

Lion is perfectly willing to assist Crab, given Crab appears to be in decline. Crab, however, rejected Lion's offer. Crab says we cannot command our own troops well enough in the special circumstances of fighting the horrors beyond the Wall. It is perfectly true that Crab has vastly more experience in this area but surely it is just a matter of sharing knowledge with us. Sadly, Crab exceptionalism prevents this obvious solution so they counterproposed a flatly untenable condition that we turn our own bushi over to their command. It's not that they don't realize this is absurd. To the contrary, they willfully ended negotiations by making a counteroffer they knew we could never accept. I suppose it is relatively a polite way to say No, from a Crab perspective.

It's not the merchants peasants fear, although given how Yasuki Taka preys on the poor perhaps they should. It is the soldiers the Yasuki daimyo knows must travel with them to stave off certain piratical parasites that would, without any doubt, cause trouble and foment unrest. So, what if Ikoma Ujiaki proposed to relieve food shortages in Crane lands by marching supplies guarded by Lion bushi through Crane territories. Perhaps if Kakita Yoshi agreed to such a thing, then it would make sense to impugn his intelligence.

Clearly, the solution is to kill all of the Crane. That clears up the "orphan" problem, frees up their resources, eliminates any disputes about the wisdom (not intelligence) of certain fools in high office...

6 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Clearly, the solution is to kill all of the Crane. That clears up the "orphan" problem, frees up their resources, eliminates any disputes about the wisdom (not intelligence) of certain fools in high office...

Waste not, want not -- the Dragon will happily take those orphans off their hands.

It grieves me to read such insensitive words next to a Phoenix Clan mon - and under the name of Shiba no less!

Scandal upon scandal ITT!

2 minutes ago, Manchu said:

It grieves me to read such insensitive words next to a Phoenix Clan mon - and under the name of Shiba no less!

Scandal upon scandal ITT!

Look, just because some writer decades ago decided the Phoenix and Cranes should be besties, followed by over twenty years of the Crane almost never doing a **** thing to help the Phoenix ( while hogging the story to a degree only the Lion even came close to), culminating in the Crane delegation at Winter Court 4 acting so hostile that the Phoenix **** near declared war is no reason to question the motives of my Wholly Sane And Reasonable proposal!

(And seriously... what do the Crane do for the story that no one else does? Come ooooooooonnnnn. Let's use 'em as oni fodder to buy the Crab time! Or ballast in Mantis ships. Either one.)

This mon under my name doesn't blind me. Lion doesn't make the fine things Crane artists do. And, really they are not just "things." Forgive me, I'm just a simple country Lion struggling to express these heady concepts. What the Crane offer the Empire is no more reducible to a mere item than Bushido is reducible to a suit of armor or a katana. It would be like saying, the Phoenix just keep us supplied with navel gazing (and trouble). But that's not really what you lovable brats offer, is it? No, the Empire can't just rise and fall on glorious, honor-steeped violence. Rokugan is the greatest possible civilization not only because of impeccable martial virtue but also because of the unmatched beauty of its art and manners and the towering majesty of its scholarly tradition.

41 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Lion is perfectly willing to assist Crab, given Crab appears to be in decline. Crab, however, rejected Lion's offer. Crab says we cannot command our own troops well enough in the special circumstances of fighting the horrors beyond the Wall. It is perfectly true that Crab has vastly more experience in this area but surely it is just a matter of sharing knowledge with us. Sadly, Crab exceptionalism prevents this obvious solution so they counterproposed a flatly untenable condition that we turn our own bushi over to their command. It's not that they don't realize this is absurd. To the contrary, they willfully ended negotiations by making a counteroffer they knew we could never accept. I suppose it is relatively a polite way to say No, from a Crab perspective.

It's not the merchants peasants fear, although given how Yasuki Taka preys on the poor perhaps they should. It is the soldiers the Yasuki daimyo knows must travel with them to stave off certain piratical parasites that would, without any doubt, cause trouble and foment unrest. So, what if Ikoma Ujiaki proposed to relieve food shortages in Crane lands by marching supplies guarded by Lion bushi through Crane territories. Perhaps if Kakita Yoshi agreed to such a thing, then it would make sense to impugn his intelligence.

If the Lion are so foolish to insist on taking command when there is a far more knowledgeable and experienced commander there, who already has the requisite knowledge to utilize the resources they are offering to provide then more the fool them. Certainly, the Crab might consider relinquishing some responsibility once the Lion have been able to become accustomed to the necessities of life on the wall but the Crab have seen what happens when they let the Lion or other clans manage the Shadowlands on their own. It results in the Crab having to sacrifice sorely needed troops to rescue those who in their arrogance assume they know better, and only serves to bolster the forces of the enemy by providing them fresh fodder in the form of new zombies and corrupted minions to throw against the crab. The Lions offer was no more an offer than if the Crab had offered to relieve them of the responsibility for serving with the Imperial Legions and instead take the place as the Right Hand of the Emperor.

As to Taka, no one ever complains about the deals they make with him. He has an ability to ensure that all parties are getting exactly what they need and desire. But Taka request for goods to travel overland would not have met with any Piratical entanglements, unless you are suggesting the Crane are so weak that they are unable to protect their inland holdings and that the Mantis are running rampant across their entire territory and not just the coastal regions, and if that were the case than surely that would call their ability to manage those lands into question and perhaps it may be time to re-examine their rights to manage those lands in the Emperor's name

But if Yoshi were the paragon of Wisdom that you make him out to be one would think he would have considered that given how aggressive the Lion have been with the Crane on their Northern border and the state of cold war they have with the Scorpion residing on their Eastern border, not to mention the troubles they have been experiencing on their coastal shipping lanes, and in light of the recent marriage of the Lion Champion to the Daughter of one of the Members of the Phoenix Elemental Council it made perfect sense to antagonize the predominantly neutral large military power on your Southern border as well.

That Yoshi is the consummate example of a master politician, such obvious grace can only be a sign of his ambitions to make the Crane great again.

4 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Rokugan is the greatest possible civilization not only because of impeccable martial virtue but also because of the unmatched beauty of its art and manners and the towering majesty of its scholarly tradition.

And between Ikoma bards and historians, Shiba artisans and Asako librarians, Kaiu craftsmen, Agasha artisans, Shosuro playwrights and actors, the Crane are superfluous to that noble end!

KYUDEN DOJI DELENDA EST!

(Hm.... is this why we don;t see many Crane mons in the lore section around here? Come on, bluebirds, defend your clan I'm always going to hate! )

The Imperial Chancellor merely anticipated how the chips needs must fall, even more quickly than a money grubber like Yasuki Taka could imagine. Even before that diminutive peddler found himself wrapped up in illicit deals with cretinous thugs, Kakita Yoshi accurately calculated that this was either already the case or would inevitably and soon be the case.

I do not begrudge Crane their day on the battlefield. It is their right as samurai to face Lion with honor and courage.

2 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

And between Ikoma bards and historians, Shiba artisans and Asako librarians, Kaiu craftsmen, Agasha artisans, Shosuro playwrights and actors, the Crane are superfluous to that noble end!

Careful there, if you falsely equate amateurs and professionals you will soon argue the Phoenix Clan out of relevance.

2 minutes ago, Manchu said:

The Imperial Chancellor merely anticipated how the chips needs must fall, even more quickly than a money grubber like Yasuki Taka could imagine. Even before that diminutive peddler found himself wrapped up in illicit deals with cretinous thugs, Kakita Yoshi accurately calculated that this was either already the case or would inevitably and soon be the case.

I do not begrudge Crane their day on the battlefield. It is their right as samurai to face Lion with honor and courage.

I forgot Yoshi is prescient and was able to discern that the lose of one shipment of jade among the multitude of other treasures that the Mantis have been depriving them of was such an obvious sign of Mantis/Crab collusion.

No worries, Lion often remembers what others "forget."

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

Thus why we members of the greatest clan are getting involved.

:nods sagely:

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

And stolen Crane koku...

And Jade.

And weapons.

And dignity....

1 hour ago, Manchu said:

As I said, shameful display! Poor white-haired Crane children going without. Especially after the Osari Plains are finally restored to their rightful owners.

The Crab have done a fine job for centuries. What has changed? Have their skills declined? Or their vigilance? Surely if there was some kind of cosmological crisis, the Elemental Council could enlighten us all. Yasuki Taka seems to be wheedling resources out of the Imperial coffers as if the Chancellor is one more peasant to be cheated. I am more concerned about hungry Crane children (who may become orphans soon, on top of everything else).

Without what? Pillowbooks? Mantis would be very happy to sell them the Translated Story of Shaharazad .

As far as the Crab go, defunding can be disastrous. The United States Forest Service used to be one of the best in the world. The US congress defunded them, and now we have wildfires running rampant .

30 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

Waste not, want not -- the Dragon will happily take those orphans off their hands.

And we would be happy to fulfill that order. How many would you like?

30 minutes ago, Manchu said:

It grieves me to read such insensitive words next to a Phoenix Clan mon - and under the name of Shiba no less!

Scandal upon scandal ITT!

Oooohhhh! He put dishonor on your mountain goat!

I fear we are doing Mr. Longhurst a disservice. He wrote us this wonderful story, packed with horror and suspense. We can all agree, having read this, that Crab are in pretty serious trouble if the Lost are roaming around their territories and "kill anyone who sees them" is the best response they can think up.

Just now, Manchu said:

I fear we are doing Mr. Longhurst a disservice. He wrote us this wonderful story, packed with horror and suspense. We can all agree, having read this, that Crab are in pretty serious trouble if the Lost are roaming around their territories and "kill anyone who sees them" is the best response they can think up.

If only the rest of the Empire would listen to their pleas for the Jade they need to be able to properly offset the potential of the Taint taking all those who may come in contact with it.

I'm not convinced it is so simple. Crab suffers from a martyr complex. It's a bit like seeing every problem as a nail when you only have a hammer. They force every issue into one of trading great personal sacrifice for averting total disaster. Must everything be so dramatic? Perhaps this is the psychological consequence of building your worldview around a wall. Even in this story, we see how a Crab bushi jumps to the melodramatic claim that she must murder innocent peasants only to relieve herself of that alleged responsibility immediately, on a rather nonsensical premise.

Plus pirates shouldn't pretend they are doing any noble service to the Empire by lining their pockets with stolen property as part of an ambition of unparalleled selfishness.