Hello Netrunner world!

I am new to the game and think it is the best thing ever!! Love the game play and love the LCG design even though there is a slightly overwhelming amount of cards available out there. But what I find super frustrating is that to have 3 copies of each card in the revised core you need to buy 3 copies of the core. If my maths is correct there are 240 non identity cards in the box, and it would take 135 extra cards to give every card 3 copies. So instead of having a 'completion' deck available we have to buy 2 extra copies of the core which creates 352 wasted cards.

I think getting 3 copies of each card would be the perfect first step into more Netrunner for us newbs as it add no extra text to learn (even though that is super fun) but it would really add to the complexity of deck building specifically trying to reduce the deck size to 45-49 cards. Plus obviously its a super expensive way to get 3 copies of one particular card for more competitive decks.

Anyway, is there any way to obtain the missing cards without the extravagant 3 copies of the core option? Would FF consider releasing a deck of all the missing cards?

I feel like every new player would find this situation frustrating so Im sure Im not alone in thinking this way! Please FF have sympathy on us poor Australians who have to pay up to twice as much as our American friends for each set of cards due to postage.

Cheers, Morgan.

I’ve had this conversation *dozens* of times over the years.

Yes, it sucks that the Core Set feels incomplete, and dropping more money on more CS feelsbadman.

counterpoints:

• in order not to have the price point go higher than $40, there is a constraint on total card count.

• to give an out-of-the-box experience with enough variety of cards, they can’t put 3x of everything in one set, that would constrain the number of cards by title and you probably couldn’t build functional decks.

• to give an out-of-the-box experience with enough consistency to be playable with 1 CS, you can’t go the other direction (to minimize diminishing returns on multiple CS purchases) and have almost all 1x cards; some cards need to be 2x or even 3x or else you can’t build functional decks. (How many games would turn on whether the runner lucked into a key icebreaker or couldn’t find one)

• While it’s true that buying multiple CS has diminishing returns, Such that a third one is only a 3x copy of 42 cards, consider that the original CS had *eleven* 1x cards, so when you decided you really did need that third Desperado or SanSan City Grid, it sucked even worse. The current state is a massive improvement.

• FFG is never going to print a completion set. There’s already a product in the catalog that has all the cards needed to complete a Core Set of Netrunner cards: the Netrunner Core Set.

• you don’t need to make the “extravagant” purchase all at once. You choose your level of involvement. Two core sets is good enough for most decks in the metagame, and there’s almost no deck that *needs* three copies of any of those 1x cards. They were chosen pretty carefully.

• Where are you in Australia that you don’t have a local game store that can stock product at retail price? There’s a thriving Australian community, the current World Champion is Australian. My heart goes out to you for the shipping costs, but if you’re in a rural area, then almost by definition you’re a minority of the customer base. It’s not good business for a company to take on additional costs and efforts to service cohorts of people that don’t represent the most quality for the greatest number. I could certainly see the case where a 2nd Core Set would be worth it at $40 USD but not at $60 or $70, but if those edge cases with increased cost aren’t the norm then it doesn’t make business sense to prioritize them.

Sorry mate, I hope you find a better solution that doesn’t cost you so much!

Hey Grimwalker,

Thanks for the quick and detailed response, Im not surprised it has been often talked about but I couldn't find any discussions about it on the net.

Your counterpoints have helped to quell my dissatisfaction so thanks for that. I am in the Central Coast an hour or so north of Sydney so Im not super rural, the revised core was hard to find though, it looks like they got sold out world wide so I got it online from miniature market who only had a few left. Everywhere online or in shop cost $70AUD (including postage if online) which according to google equates to $53USD. Maybe I can get a second box to share with a friend so all our 2x copies are filled out and we can give the 3x copies to another friend to start off his collection.

Now to find those Australian Netrunner players!

Cheers,

Morg,

Ah, yeah, that would do it. The first run of the Revised Core Set is really hard to find right now, the next reprint is actually on the boat to various disrtributors so prices should come down in the next moth or two.

In the meantime, communism is the way to go! Here in our meta we're explicit that nobody has to buy anything they're not ready to. We also are very tolerant of people printing paper proxies--that's a great way to try-before-you-buy; you'll get a good idea of whether a given set is worth having.

I too understand your frustrations and agree that the situation sucks. I don't know what the business realities of printing cards are, and how much it would cut into FFG's profit margins to make every 1x card in the box a 2x, but I assume there's a reason why all their core boxes are between 300-350 cards.

What I used to do back when I owned a single original core set is borrow my 2nd (and sometimes 3rd) copies of Desperado and SanSan whenever I needed to go to a tournament, and use proxies in casual play. (just slip a scribbled piece of paper into the card sleeve of another card) Seeing as there are far fewer absolute must-have 3x cards in the revised core set than there were in the original, it shouldn't be hard to find someone to lend you the card you need, especially since a lot of the older players have multiple sets of some of the 1x cards, like Hostile Takeover which anyone with 3x original cores will have NINE of!

Hey Cry,

Thanks for the response. Changing the topic slightly, and to tickle my curiosity, what cards would you say are absolute must have 3x copies cards that only come as 1x copy in the Revised Core??

Well FFG has changed course with their miniature games and their cash grab mentality. They went from you need to buy multiples of every ship of every faction to get the cards you need to those cards being rather plentiful across multiple products. Hopefully FFG will learn people do know how much it costs to print cards (usually no more than a penny, if that) and that a huge cash grab like buy 3 core sets actually hurts their business, not helps it. For them to have a complete core set will increase the final price by about $10, but I don't see that as a big deal. Having to pay out $120 for a full set, is a big deal.

At this point the best way to get into this game is to buy a used collection, which FFG gets no money from. They really need to rethink how they handle their LCGs. Buying a few of the old data packs if you can find them cheap is a possible option but at this point you might just end up buying two more cores to complete the whole set. I had to buy about 4 or 5 data packs at around $10 each to complete my new core and I had a couple of data packs already. It is possible to save a few bucks with that approach but you won't get by with just buying a couple of data packs and calling it a day unless you can be happy with having do to without several sets of cards. With that said, there are so many cards in netrunner right now, it is possible to do without several sets of cards and have a good deck put together.

The odds of finding old data packs at an affordable price to round out clearance-priced Original Core sets without straight up costing more than three Revised Core Sets are extremely slim and not worth the extra time and effort.

Mep, you know absolutely nothing about the material costs of adding cards, nor what the fully realized costs of increasing the card count would be. The margin on data packs is much higher because there are no additional materials costs and the packaging is minimalistic, so the Core Set is hardly a cash grab. I’ve playtested for FFG and I can tell you that card count is a HARD constraint. While the card counts and price point for LCG Core Sets has held steady for a decade, they’ve cut costs in every other area they could, from box size to components and now they’re not even putting the Rules Reference as a printed item. That is not the picture of a high margin product and the notion that they could just add more is pure wishful thinking.

On 5/16/2018 at 11:25 PM, Mep said:

Hopefully FFG will learn people do know how much it costs to print cards (usually no more than a penny, if that)

Please post a link to a service printing cards for less than a penny a card. I've been looking for an inexpensive way to print cards for my board game prototype for quite a while.

He’s referring to the mere price of cardboard. When taking into account multiple other factors, additional costs stack up very quickly, to the point that they’d need to abandon the $40 introductory price point.

At $40, people can generally afford to try out the game, get a reasonably good experience out of the box, then amortize the cost of additional copies over time if they choose. Making people pay $50, $60, or more up front raises the initial bar of entry.

For some promo cards we printed in our local meta, we used www.makeplayingcards.com.

10 hours ago, jhaelen said:

Please post a link to a service printing cards for less than a penny a card. I've been looking for an inexpensive way to print cards for my board game prototype for quite a while.

If you are a large manufacture like Hasbro you can get those prices since they are printing a lot of cards all the time. If you are prototyping then yes, you will be printing small amounts of cards and will be playing a good amount of money, either buying in bulk you don't need or doing a single run at a print shop. I would talk to people who regularly make games and crowd source them for their experience rather than mine. They would know of specific print shops that cater to small businesses in the board games area.

FFG has a huge problem getting people into this game. I would say $40 is too high a price point already and $120 is simply not happening for most. I was thinking of playing L5R but quickly became disinterested in both the business model and deck building. The cost to entry and learning curve for deck building was too high. @Grimwalker You are right in that FFG is stuck on both price point and card count. I have no idea why they are so closed minded on their thinking when so many other card game companies are getting the job done. All they needed as a good, playable straight out of the package and competitive intro deck to L5R (or any of their LCGs) that I could pick up for $20-$30 and I am in the game. Right now it is $120 in cores, then another $120 in packs and yeah I am done before I even started. Netrunner is sooo much worse than that right now. They don't have a good entry level product and 1/3 of a core set was never that product.

FFG is just shooting themselves in the foot.

5 hours ago, Mep said:

All they needed as a good, playable straight out of the package and competitive intro deck to L5R (or any of their LCGs) that I could pick up for $20-$30 and I am in the game. Right now it is $120 in cores, then another $120 in packs and yeah I am done before I even started. Netrunner is sooo much worse than that right now. They don't have a good entry level product and 1/3 of a core set was never that product.

FFG is just shooting themselves in the foot.

It's not $120 in cores. It's $40 to, as I said, try out the game, get a reasonably good experience out of the box, then amortize the cost of additional copies over time if they choose. The reason FFG is "closed minded" is because they have evidence they're right, that holding the line on $40 is a good point where the most people can afford to take a chance without feeling like they're making a major commitment.

Mep can complain like he always does but my meta has doubled since the Revised core set came out both with new players and returning veterans. On one hand I have Mep's cynical, worst-case, $120, glass-is-1/3-full doomsaying. On the other I have that totally falsified twice, both by actual real world experience and a trivially easy mental exercise of how badly the game would have died in its cradle five years ago if they'd actually priced a single product at $120 and expected people to buy that to get into the game. Even if three cores were a requirement--and it's totally not--the ability to buy a second or perhaps a third later , at a time of one's own choosing, is an enormous benefit and Mep is extremely foolish to not consider it.

Yeah, no one is interesting in paying $120 either for one core or 3 cores. That is the problem right there. The full core with a complete set of cards is very doable at the $50 price point. FFG just knows how to sell plastic and card board crack.

They would do themselves a big favor by not having the core set be the intro to the game. Have a complete product with just two decks that can be competitive at league night and then have their other products. You have to be ignorant to buy into one of their LCGs thinking $40 core is a complete product. The point of entry into these LCGs needs to be reconsidered and they may do that at some point in the future.

This topic. Dead horse.

Mep, if you're so certain that FFG are wrong on this then I urge you to go out there and make a comparable product but at the price point and marketing/distribution method you suggest. The market will bear out if you're right or not.

Like it or not FFG have run the numbers, as Grimwalker has stated time and again. It would cost significantly more than $50 to make a Core set that includes the same variety of cards but with full playsets of everything without absolutely gutting their own margins to the point of not being profitable to produce; and as the MAJORITY of LCG sales are single-core only as a buy-and-try, there is literally no incentive to a company to wreck their margin on a product that won't promote future purchases as a result.

2 hours ago, CommissarFeesh said:

Mep, if you're so certain that FFG are wrong on this then I urge you to go out there and make a comparable product but at the price point and marketing/distribution method you suggest. The market will bear out if you're right or not.

Logical fallacy alert. Not sure what this would prove other than that Mep isn't as successful at creating and marketing a game than FFG.

That said, this is definitely a dead horse. I've read it too. I've even made it myself with AH: LCG. FFG isn't going to listen. They do not have incentive to listen.

But that also doesn't make them right. Creating a completion set for even as much as $40 (half the price as two more core sets) may not be as profitable (a big assumption here), but it's a good gesture to the community. You could still buy it later on, after you've decided you want to play this game. It also means you don't have all this wasted cardboard (you wouldn't need any cards that you've already got 3 of, not to mention needing any of the tokens or the rulebook). And because of that, the printing cost would necessarily be less than that of the Core, so the profit margins would be higher.

Meh, whatever. It's not going to change, and in the end, as all have said above, you can still have fun with even one copy of the Revised Core. If you're going to be taking this seriously and just have to have a complete set, then whether you're spending an extra $40 or $80 is a bit moot. Just feels like a waste to have doubles and triples of things you only need one of.

I can identify one more wrongheaded assumption right off the bat: that an LCG Core Set should even be held to the definition of “a complete product.” It doesn’t require ignorance; anyone who’s *fully informed,* and it would be difficult not to realize this, would know that this is an introductory product to a game line replete with additional expansion sets. A reasonable person would judge it in that context: an introduction. And (not to forget OP) would view obtaining additional copies of desirable CS cards as a goal for the future but not critical at the moment of first purchase.

It really comes down to, is the Core set a good beginner's product? If you just are going to play at the kitchen table - yes. If you are going to a league night play - no. What should an intro product be and what goals should it achieve. Some there think the core is just perfect the way it is, others feel it should be something different. Here is the problem, card games are not new. How to make an intro product to a game is known. FFG actually did this for destiny, a be it not as well as more seasoned game companies. In the end, for $60, you must buy two (not one) two-player starters and have a couple of good decks to play with. There isn't anything close to the equivalent with these LCGs. The core is just a poor introductory product. They don't have a gateway product. You can come up with all the silly suggestions like "I should start my own game company" or think that cards are some how expensive to print but it doesn't change the fact that the buy in is stupid high for an LCG and FFG doesn't address this.

I do get the feeling FFG eventually will have good starters, at some point. I don't see it happening for this game though. I think L5R will see the first intro to the game decks come out. If they are successful, maybe netrunner will get something. Until then, getting new people into the game is really hard.

I have had zero problems using the Revised Core to get players into ANR. It is only $40 and has more than enough cards to let players play a lot of games.

4 hours ago, Mep said:

card games are not new. How to make an intro product to a game is known.

Couldn't possibly agree more! Your intro product to a game should be affordable enough that it doesn't actually forestall sales, it should give a reasonable taste of the game's potential, fuel demand for future purchases, and be useful on an ongoing basis.

FFG does know how to do this. The $40 price point is a prime consideration. You can't give away the store by just putting as much as you can possibly stuff into a cardboard box and be heedless of margins, so you set the limits based on other criteria and give the best product you can for the price you estimate. Seriously, why would they possibly put less in the box for $40 than their margins would permit? I'm honestly baffled by how you think it must have so much room for more, just look at what you get for $40 from a Core Set, for $30 from a Deluxe, or for $15 in a Data Pack. You get over four times as many cards for 2 2/3 the price, plus the tokens, the rulebook, and the box itself.

And how many people have to tell you that the real world proves you wrong before you realize that your personal preferences aren't universal and your armchair analysis is empirically false?

Well the reality is they just had to shut down the Star Wars LCG. The core set in a vacuum is a fine but a very poor product for getting people in the middle of the game. I don't play magic but I am around it enough to hear a lot about it. That game was dying fast the past few years. It is now healthy again. The key was intro decks that were strong enough out of the box to go play with at their friday night magic events. That is exactly the type of gate way product that gets people in the game. Easy entry and completely competitive. A case can be made that $40 is too high and FFG is trying to do too much with the core set as an intro product. Anyways, the real world is what it is. Good entry level products work. This isn't my analysis but just reality. You can reject it if you like. In the end, your opinion means nothing and to be fair neither does mine. However if FFG doesn't figure out how to get people right into the middle of their LCGs at a reasonable price point their LCGs will be going in the same direction as the Star Wars LCG. Right now they are just selling to an existing customer base that is shrinking. Revised core was a band-aid and too little too late for many play groups. I would like to see them do more rather than just slowly abandon one game in favor of the next new game they put out, like L5R.

And how does anyone tell someone with a straight face, "you just need this $40 core set and you'll be fine", when the truth is they are looking at a several hundred dollar buy in to have the card pool necessary to not have a negative play experience against players with competitive decks.

2 hours ago, Mep said:

And how does anyone tell someone with a straight face, "you just need this $40 core set and you'll be fine",

Nobody I know sells an LCG on that basis. An LCG is a lifestyle product, and the core set is sold as either a self-contained game to play by itself (and against itself), or as the gateway to the larger metagame and all the additional purchasing that entails.

I just told you that my meta has *doubled* with several new players since the Revised Core Set came out so clearly it is doing its job well, as others have said the same.

This is not my opinion, this is real world results from myself and many others.

Well they are actually doing intro decks for Game of Thrones. That license at least is worth fighting for. I know of a few game stores that stopped carrying netrunner. I am sure FFG had their numbers post 2.0, saw the huge drop off and decided renewing the licensing agreement wasn't worth it, which is exactly what I was afraid of. If they aren't growing the game, then the game is dying. I do hope those intro decks work out well of the Game of Thrones community cause that license won't get renewed either if the sales aren't there.

Sad it was mismanaged. This was a such fun game. Maybe Wizards will do something with it now that they have Lukas over there, though I am no fan of Wizards. They do at least know how to run a card game.

14 hours ago, Mep said:

Well the reality is they just had to shut down the Star Wars LCG. The core set in a vacuum is a fine but a very poor product for getting people in the middle of the game.

Isn't that a data point against your argument? The one LCG requires fewer than 3 core sets for a playset is the first one to close up shop (other than ones where they lost the license)?

The Star Wars LCG was crazy and had been limping for years, barely keeping a very dedicated and incredibly tiny player base. I'm surprised it continued as long as it did. I know some people liked it and I tried hard for the sake of a couple of friends, but even as a dedicated Star Wars fan I found it nigh incomprehensible, and that I was able to destroy Star Destroyers with swamp rats and tauntauns made it all the weirder. I don't think you can really compare ANR with it in quality or community.