TCBC Freak said:

I already said there are good out-of-game reasons to include Ultramarines. I never claimed otherwise. The internal logic of the setting is where the problem arises. Of course they can completely rewrite everything if they want (though they aren't going to), but based on what they've published the Ultramarines simply shouldn't be as likely to be encountered within Deathwatch as many other Chapters in the Segmentum Obscurus. Internal logic is what this is all about as far as I'm concerned, and internal logic is important if a fictional setting is ever going to be truly immersive (at least for certain people).

Atheosis said:

It doesn't help that your logic is making certain assumptions.

Number one being that the Deathwatch setting is in the Segmentum Obscuras - which hasn't been stated. We know that the area detailed in the Deathwatch game is the Jericho Reach, but we don't know where that is, or what is going on there. That it's somewhere near the Calixis Sector and the Koronus Expanse are pure speculation on the part of the community...

My question is: Is this set in the same time period as DH/RT? Because if it is there aren't a lot of Ultramarines left at this point . Remember that timeline wise, this takes place shortly after the Battle of Macragge, which it took the smurfs more then a century to recover from.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Very true. Seeing as the setting for RT is neighboring the Calixis Sector I assume the same will be done with DW. FFG seems to want to encourage crossover between RT and DH so I think it's a good bet they'll continue that trend. But you are completely correct that right now it remains an unknown.

Just use them as archetypes. Honestly - is it really that difficult?

Most Marines are like Ultramarines as most Marine Chapters are successors of the Ultramarines - so if you don't want to play as an actual Ultramarine, just play one of the many Chapters that came from them. Or even a non-Ultramarine Codex Chapter, like Imperial Fists or Crimson Fists. Ditto for other Chapters similar to the other ones - want to play as a Flesh Tearer? Fine! Play as a Blood Angel and if you must have extra rules to show how crazy you are, ask your GM.

People on this forum react as though the rules are both set in stone and any deviation will result in them being struck down by God himself. Oh, the rules say Ultramarine, therefore I must play as an Ultramarine.


Anyway, looking forward to what they say about Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Black Templars and especially the FFG Homebrew Chapter.

H.B.M.C. said:

What can I tell ya? Gamers, especially gamers on internet forums, tend to over-react ... in all kinds of bizarre ways.

And yes, I am looking forward to it as well.

But tell me, has it been confirmed that FFG is doing a "home-brew" Chapter?

H.B.M.C. said:

It's funny really. I'm pretty much over this whole debate, but when people bring up the whole "use them as archetypes" thing I do get a little perturbed. Especially when I'm told "most Chapters are like the Ultramarines because most of them are Ultramarines successors". Just think about it. Two thirds of Chapters do indeed have Ultramarines geneseed. That doesn't mean they are like them any more than the child of a serial killer is going to be a serial killer. Each Space Marine Chapter has its own unique character and cultur e . Following the Codex Astartes doesn't make a Chapter Ultramarines clones any more than people following the same philosophy or religion are clones of each other. So while I respect your view and understand that you and others are happy with six Chapters, don't tell me to "use them as archetypes". As I've said before I would have greatly preferred a system to represent every Chapter in 40k rather than be given a choice of half a dozen overexposed Chapters. That of course isn't happening.

In the end I'll be designing my own system for representing other Chapters. That isn't what this about. It all really has to do with my feeling they should've included it in the core book. Others don't agree. That's fine. But the "use them as archetypes" just doesn't fly with me. If I wanted to use an "archetype" I could've started a Deathwatch game long ago using Agamor (SP?) in Purge the Unclean as an "archetype".

We disagree. That's fine. But please don't be condescending.

Actually you highlight the way I think exactly - you're not going to be slave to the rules as written, you're going to come up with something that feels more right for you and your group. That's a good thing, and if more people held that attitude towards this type of game there'd be less arguments.

But Marine Chapters are archetypes. They can have their own culture and personal identity and still follow the same tenants and codes that other Codex Chapters do. All Blood Angel successors are different, but they are all still Blood Angel successors and bare some of the same personality traits. Sometimes these traits are quite muted (like the Blood Drinkers, the most Ultramarine-like of the BA successors), and sometimes their traits are taken to the extreme (Flesh Tearers). They will still be Blood Angel successors, and using the Deathwatch Blood Angel Chapter rules as your starting point makes far more sense than, say, Space Wolves would.

That's what I'm getting at.

BYE

Sister Cat said:

H.B.M.C. said:

Nice. I missed that. Very cool. At least we'll have one Chapter that isn't "fanboy-central". Don't get me wrong, I like several of the "popular" Chapters, but I am relieved that all of the Chapters in the core-book won't be them.

I'm just hoping that in the first follow-up expansion they extend the Chapter listing to include Salamanders, Raven Guard and White Scars. I suggest them not because I have any particular love or loyalty for those Chapters (I play Ultramarines), but because they represent the most unique of what's left (aside from Iron Hands, I 'spose). No sense in adding Imperial Fists when their differences to the Ultramarines would be minimal.

And I hope there's a 'create your chapter' style part to the rules as well, if not in the core, in an expansion.

And I hope a nice call-out box on Page 1 says "There are no girl Space Marines".

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

Unless you count the Hello Kitty Chapter

Hello,

New to these forums and have been following the progress of DW closely.Have FFG said that there will be a chapter on how to create your own space marine chapter?

@Atheosis

And yes my argument is partly based on my dislike of FFGs design choices regarding Chapter choices (I'm actually pretty neutral in my feelings for the Ultramarines as a Chapter). It's also based on a certain amount of simple deduction based on my knowledge of how big the Imperium is and how small a Space Marine Chapter is. What's yours based on again?

I've forgotten, but perhaps you could go back two pages and look it up for me. "Simple deduction" might be a part of it as well, which is kind of funny, isn't it?

@Miles

Hello,

New to these forums and have been following the progress of DW closely.Have FFG said that there will be a chapter on how to create your own space marine chapter?

They haven't, which is what certain people are criticising.

miles1739 said:

It won't be in the core rulebbok, but in one of the supplements. Here's an excerpt from "Chapters of the Deathwatch, Part 1" DD:

"In addition to that, it is a long-held tradition for Space Marine fans to create their own Chapters, or develop successor Chapters from some of the more famous and well-established ones in the Warhammer 40,000 lore. You can be sure that a thorough and extensive create-your-own-Chapter section is planned for the Deathwatch line in the future! "

Hope this helps.

It does.Thanks for the feedback guys.

I was thinking Iron Hands as well. Since GW has done nothing to support one of the first founding.