Hi Deathwatch fans!

This week, my designer diary reveals the second Space Marine Chapter for the Deathwatch core rulebook . Enjoy!

That's two of the First Founding down then...

So, given that if the trend follows form the Dark Angels, Blood Angels and two other chapters will follow - most likely of the First Founding.

Oh well, I guess the chance of the Rainbow Warriors chapter turning up is slim...

I think I've made my opinions on the topic pretty clear in other threads. This is just so boring.

By the way Ross (though I'm almost certain I'll get no response), was it you and the other FFG designers who decided to go with the big name Chapters or did GW insist on it? Just wondering.

Atheosis said:

Okay, we get that it's boring to you. Do you honestly think that the key chapters idea is objectively boring, or perhaps it was a wise business decision - or, shock horror, they chapters are popular for a reason? I'm no fan of the Ultramarines or Space Wolves, heck even the Blood Angels; but to not include them would be downright silly, simply because they are such rich lore and a wide fan base.

Wilfred Owen said:

Honestly, I think that limiting the initial number of Chapters to a mere six pretty much forces them to do what they're doing (from a marketing standpoint as you pointed out). It's not the inclusion of a bunch of Chapters of Legend that I have an issue with, it's that that's all that's going to be avaiable. Hell they aren't even doing enough Chapters to cover all of the First Founding Chapters. As I said in another thread they really needed to offer a Chapter creation system in the core book so that we can represent whatever Chapter we want rather than being forced to choose from a measly six Chapters (even if we can use them as counts as as some have suggested, as I'm pretty much inclined to see that as a cop out). That they either a)expect us to be happy with such limited choices, b) expect us to come up with our own rules so we can play this game with the true variety that should be represented within Deathwatch, or c) expect us to patiently wait for a year plus until they come out with a Chapter supplement, just plain irritates me. I'll probably opt for option b, but then again I wonder if I should reward such nonsense with my patronage. (Oh who am I kidding? I love Space Marines too much not to buy this.)

For those who are happy with all of this, cheers. To me it all just smacks of a designer choosing to hold back on providing a full system so they can charge people for yet another overpriced book later. Kind of reminds me of how they left out so much with the space combat in RT. That still rubs me the wrong way when I think about it.

Atheosis said:

Dude!

I never post here, only lurk, but, um, this is a role playing game. 6 chapters is IMO enough information to template off of, and understand how chapters are built to build any one you want. you don't like it. a) don't buy the game, b) make up your own chapters that better reflect the kind of game YOU want to play.

and for people like me, who have no (or next to no) prior knowledge of wh40k cannon and lore, having the archetype chapters is actually welcome.

the level of viciousness on this forum astounds me.

Cheers,

J.

Atheosis said:

Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, I can see where you are coming from.

jman5000 said:

Not sure what was vicious about my post. I was simply voicing my criticisms of the design route they've decided to take.

And I already said I would probably come up with my own rules, but when I pay sixty bucks for a book I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a complete system that doesn't need that kind of work. GMing is hard enough without having to create your own rules from scratch.

By the way "archetype" would be something like feral/barbarian Chapter rather than the Space Wolves or secretive/taciturn Chapter rather than the Dark Angels. Actual named Chapters are not really archetypes per se.

However, think about it. The game has to be solid enough for complete newbies to the 40k setting to get into. This means that the popular chapters have to be involved, because they cover several core concepts, and with their rich history of background, usefully demonstrate just how different one chapter can be from another.

Having a "make your own chapter" rules, to the detriment of having these chapters in the book, would be useless for newbies, as they wouldn't know where to start with it all. Ultimately, with the roleplay books, they have to be newbie friendly. I'm sure you want newbies to buy into the series and help FFG to be able to keep making new books, right?

Plus, they only have between 350-400 pages to use. Some things just won't make the cut, and will have to be put in a future book. It's sad, because we'd all like everything in it, but that's the nature of the book publishing industry.

I'm prepared to put up with it, mostly because only so much will fit into one book, but also because this probably means some nice big blocks of text going into the mindset of the Astartes which can only be a good thing

MILLANDSON said:

I don't get why people think there isn't enough room in a 400 page book for more than six Chapters and Chapter creation rules. 400 pages is quite a bit. The question does bring up something else that is kind of annoying: the amount of page space they use on the same basic rules for each of the 40k Roleplay games. I find myself really wishing that they would have come out with the core rules and then printed various expansions (DH, RT, DW, etc.) instead of giving me the same stuff over and over while charging me sixty bucks a pop.

A DD! Yay! Wait...Ultramarines. OK, no suprises here. Moving on.

Atheosis said:

Because that's how Black Industries started it, so it's a bit late to go back and redo it now, and as much as I like the nWoD/etc style of 1 core rulebook and then expansions for different types of character, that way results in people having to buy two books minimum to play one game, rather than just the one.

Plus, with a setting the size of the 40k one, 400 pages really isn't a lot. They're going to have to squash a lot of fluff into those 400 pages.

You have yet to read the book, so you should probably wait before writing it off. That's what I'm doing, at least.

Atheosis said:

All this whining and moaning - and you say you're going to buy it anyway. You don't like it, vote with your wallet and don't buy it. If you're going to lay out the money, find a way to live with it and give us all a rest already.

Honestly, I think that limiting the initial number of Chapters to a mere six pretty much forces them to do what they're doing

I think 6 chapters is plenty for the core rulebook.

Complaining about only 6 chapters, is like complaining about only 6 homeworlds in Rogue Trader, to be honest. 6 chapters, with various "careers" (did anyone notice that was an Apothecary picture in the Design Diary?) and a decent "origin path" style affair, should give us a wealth of character creation options.

There's plenty of scope to release little known chapters down the line, but leaving out the Ultramarines would be ridiculous, as they are the "base line" of Space Marines, and leaving out the Wolves or the Dark Angels would inspire idiotic nerd rage to the point of hurting sales - probably not to the point of making a large financial impact, but enough for awkward questions to be asked of the DT as to ehy they left out the more popular chapters.

At the end of the day, this is the Deathwatch Core Rulebook - what is core to GW Space Marines? Is it the ability to create your own chapter? Or is it the background and history of those chapters already in existence in the published material?

Finally - rules wise, create your own chapter in the core rules would be a disaster - that's way too much customisation when we haven't established whether or not the rules work. What happens if Full Auto is a bit too powerful in Deathwath given the Marines' increased base BS... and the customisation rules allow for Full Auto specialisation, or something?

"Create your chapter" has to come AFTER the Core Rules - and leaving out a core chapter from the core rules would just leave egg on everyone's faces. There'll still be space for two lesser known chapters - Iron Hands and Black Templars, or something.

My guess, by the way, is that we'll see those two last on the spoilers list, to keep everyone waiting...

I love how I can usually tell who the DD is about before I see the big fat chapter symbol...

Anyway, peanut gallery comments aside, still waiting for FFG to mention mechanics or start talking about Jericho Reach itself, that might be interesting. To see what planets are there, what xenos thrive in that area, and what kind of lost colonies await to be found...

MILLANDSON said:

Truer words were never spoken and I have the same sentiments.

davidasnoddy said:

I could pick apart most of your statements, but it occurs to me that virtually all of you are cool with the way they've decided to do it, so I'll let it go. If everyone is happy with the lack of variety they've decided to offer, far be it for me to rain on your parade.

oh no theyre adding the core popular chapters that have been a staple of 40k for years how could they do this i dont understand im so upset and im not gonna shut up about it ever

Cool story.

Artemesia said:

Quite a sophisticated post. I'm left bereft of words at your dizzying intellect.

Oh, and look at that artwork. Apothecary much, anyone? Yay SMURFS! I can now torment my locals officially now.

-=Brother Praetus=-

hello

I read this second news and I am quite happy.

I am not a warhammer 40.000 mini player but a roleplayer, My only knowledge of the W40K universe outside of RPG is limited to the space marines in Space Crusade and Space Hulk and also a PC wargame from many years in which was settled in near the Eye of Terror featuring the Ultramarines.

My knowledge of the fluff is mainly based on the Dark Heresy and the Rogue Trader RPG so I am quite happy to learn and learn. That is not an issue form me to have only 6 chapters so.

And I am bewildered when I read someone would pay 60 dollar for the Deathwatch core book. I am french in fact and I must say that buying the RPG books in original version (in english) is less expansive than to buy the french translation, when there is a translation in fact, as it is the fact for Dark Heresy, and soon, Rogue Trader : I bought my Rogue Trader 51 €, that's 68,98 $, so it is 9 $ more that in your country, more expensive ^^;.

Another case in the same gamestore, Dark Heresy in french version : 52.30 € // 70,74 $ ; in english version : 49 € // 66,28 $ if you compare to the FFH price : 59.95 $, that's still less, so it does seem to me that it is less expansive in US .

Atheosis said:

Some people will find anything to complain about. Can't you just be thankful that we are getting a Space Marine RPG, as opposed to whining about the smallest of things? Seriously, some people here need to get out more often . . .

Atheosis said:

Equally astounded by your sarcasm 'skill'.