Atheosis said:

Well, for one thing I'm never going to use it.

What exactly is a 'chapter generator' going to be? It isn't going to generate interesting background fluff with a detailed history and culture. It's going to be a bunch of stat-creation tables. That's something I could do without. I'll either stick with the chapters I have or, if I decide to make up a new one, do it myself. A similar example of what I'm talking about is the Xenos generator for DH. I've never used it, cause it's (IMO) rubbish. A few random tables and some abilities to create an alien - or I could just assign the stats and abilities I think is appropriate for the cool creature I've come up with.

Why do we need chapter creation 'rules'? What is important is the fluff, adding appropriate stats is easy.

As to why I'd prefer the extra chapters to be in the corebook - I don't own a single piece of space wolf fluff. I have no space wolf novels or army books. I may have a few WDs somewhere that I could dig out, but I don't feel like scouring them for SW info. The same goes for all space marine chapters. I could track all that crap over the net, but I'm not going to print that out and hand it to my players to read. Of course I prefer to have it in the corebook.

And finally - I don't think I need to create new chapters all that much. I think that the 6 chapters in the corebook will be sufficient. A few more detailed in supplements will be fine. I don't think that I'm going to create some great new chapter with some interesting traits that make it more interesting than the ones in it already.

Including only 6 chapters in the main rulebook would be a marketing decision, saving attractive material for later books. Core rulebooks sell, further supplements sell increasingly worse. The RPG publishing business isn't doing well. Realising new core books is a survival strategy for a RPG title, not a way to rob the customers. Releasing more chapters in later books would be one way to help keeping the brand afloat. Nobody gets fat on publishing RPGs nowadays.

There is another reason why the Ultramarines should be in, aside from being a pretty good baseline. The Ultramarines took the Battle for Macragge pretty personally, to the point where they are beginning to specialize in kicking the frak out of Tyranids. They have likely begun sending more Marines to the Deathwatch since then, not just to learn specialist alien-killing tactics to teach the rest of the chapter when their tour is up, but to be the ones doing the teaching.

The Ultramarines are also quite co-operative as Chapters go. Given that, they're going to be likely candidates for Deathwatch volunteers. Really and truly, this is why the Unforgiven are highly unlikely Deathwatch members, cool as they are

macd21 said:

Interesting point. The Xenos generator is pretty useless I'll agree. To me however a system for creating Chapters could be much more useful. And the thing is I don't want the system to create a bunch of DIY Chapters. I want it so my players can play official Chapters that aren't getting covered in the core book (without having to sit down with each of them and come up with it all from scratch). The concept is very similar to the old traits system that was used in the previous edition of the Space Marine codex. In particular to have a list of a few dozen Chapters with appropriate traits listed (negative and positive) is what I'd really like. So then when a player says "I just read Brotherhood of the Snake , and I want to play an Iron Snake." I don't have to come up with rules off the top of my head for them. Or Blood Ravens, Crimson Fists, etc. In the end I can come up with all myself, and I probably will, but I would've liked to not have to.

All that said, however, you helped me understand the position of others on the subject. Personally, having Space Marine fluff engraved into my neurons I couldn't care less for whatever background material they put in on all the big name Chapters. I've read it all before. Others however seem to differ greatly with me on that. In fact, to such a degree that I'm beginning to think FFG is probably doing what the majority of players want. I have to remember that most DW players aren't going to be long-time TT players and readers of BL books. Oh well. We all have a tendency to universalize our experiences, and think that everyone wants what we want. Clearly that is rarely the case.

Cheers.

Tullio said:

I have read something somewhere that suggests that Dark Angels send volunteers to the Deathwatch specifically so that they can allay suspicions by saying "Look, we're cooperating with the Inquisition, REALLY!"

All these reasons for the Ultramarines to be in the Deathwatch are all very true. They're not very good reasons for them to be playable in the game however. Why? Because where the game is going to take place, assuming it's near the Calixis Sector, is on the opposite side of the galaxy from Ultramar. So the only way to explain a PC Ultramarine newly seconded to the Deathwatch is to say that he was transported from one side of the Imperium to the other for some reason (nearly 100,000 light years). With the way warp travel works in 40k, that just wouldn't happen. I could see an Ultramarine commander being in the game as his long career with Deathwatch could've eventually led him to be that far from his homeworld, but not a freshly seconded battle brother.

The only reason the Ultramarines are being included is for marketing purposes. It's a very good reason mind you, just not a reason that really has anything to do with the background material.

Lyinar said:

Where did you read such a thing? The Dark Angels aren't under any real suspicion from the Inquisition as far as I'm aware.

Tullio said:

I don't think that the Dark Angels are in Deathwatch to cooperate. I think they are there to find 'fallen' and take them out before anyone else can question them. Dark Angels have ulterior motives for being in Deathwatch.

The Dark Angels are not under suspicion from the Inquisition. They kill anyone they find that knows they are evil.

Atheosis said:

Except that it happens all the time. During the 13th Crusade, companies from all of the First Founding Chapters took part, most of which originate from opposite sides of the Imperium from the Eye of Terror. If a certain chapter volunteered lots of their Battle Brothers to the Deathwatch, and they had singular experience in fighthing a specific threat to the Imperium (such as Ultramarines and Tyranids), why wouldn't the Deathwatch ensure that their first hand experience and knowledge of the threat was spread across the Imperium as much as possible?

MILLANDSON said:

It happens all the time? An event the likes of the 13th Black Crusade doesn't happen all the time. That's a war that threatens the very survival of the Imperium, not a small-scale xenos infestation that requires the intervention of a Deathwatch kill team.

By the way, the Ultramarines' expertise in fighting Tyranids would hardly be useful in the Segmentum Obscurus. In fact they would be much more useful in the Ultima Segmentum as far as that is concerned.

Atheosis said:

You are right, by and large. But there are always individuals who hold doubt in their mind and heart; or have seen something to cause them to question. Every chapter, every regiment, governor and magos is under the suspicion of someone. Tithing troops to serve with the Deathwatch is by no means mandatory, but failing to do so may bring cause to question your chapters loyalties. There are, of course, exceptions.

As to the 'Nids; did you not see the Lictor published in CA? Genestealers? There is a Tyranid presence in the Segmentum. As to how expansive it currently is is the only real question. Space is three-dimensional. To think that a hive fleet wouldn't or couldn't circumnavigate the edge of the galaxy and invade from the direction of Obscurus is a little naive and close-minded when dealing with what has been described thus far for the setting.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

I never said that the Tyranid couldn't attack the Segmentum Obscurus. They simply aren't a known threat in that region of the galaxy, and so there wouldn't be much reason to send experts on killing them there.

Oh and it takes a lot of suspicion for the Inquisition to declare a Chapter Excommunicate Traitoris. Seconding or not seconding Marines really wouldn't make much of a difference as far as that goes.

Oh and it takes a lot of suspicion for the Inquisition to declare a Chapter Excommunicate Traitoris. Seconding or not seconding Marines really wouldn't make much of a difference as far as that goes.

Yeah, but the suspicion has to start somewhere. "They keep to themselves and don't like anyone poking into their business" doesn't seem like a bad point.

Cifer said:

"They refused to relinquish control of the orbital platform to the Administratum, and then had the nerve to kill our Skittari when we tried to take the orbital by force. What's that you ask? I don't have any idea what this ' soul spear ' they are talking about could be."

Poor Soul Drinkers. Victims of Imperial infighting at first. And then, later, their own hubris.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Cifer said:

"They keep to themselves and don't like anyone poking into their business" would actually describe most Chapters. Space Marines aren't known for having people over for tea or gossiping about the latest happenings in their lives. As long as they submit their geneseed tithes and don't engage in open hostilities with other Imperial forces it takes quite a bit for the Inquisition to go after them. More to the point, no Chapter is going to be particularly worried about what the Inquisition, or anyone else for that matter, thinks of them, and so aren't going to engage in a course of action meant to make people be less suspicious of them.

Unforgiven pretending to co-operate while looking for the Fallen all sounds well and good, but they still have to co-operate with other teammates and make thier excuses when they actually do get the scent of the Fallen. The Dark Angels are secretive even among themselves, let alone with other Astartes. I'm not saying there's never any reason to play Unforgiven as Deathwatch, just that it's a lot less likely than the vast majority of other Chapters.

On the distance note, normally I'd agree, but here the positioning of the setting is less of a problem. Astartes are well-travelled anyway thanks to ships that are designed to cover large distances, fast - Deathwatch even more so. Factor in the lifespan of an Astartes and you can kinda get away with most Chapters capable of appearing in the Deathwatch in most corners of the Imperium. Ultramar is a bit of a stretch, I grant that but like I say, less of a problem

Re the use of Tyranids in 40K rpg campaigns, I prefer to stick to the Codex which flatly states;

The Tyranids had been believed destroyed at Macragge (in 745-747.M41 iirc) but over two centuries later there were renewed reports from the eastern fringe. (Heralding the arrival of Hive Fleet Kraken.)

So according to this information (which makes sense considering the massive Imperial movements that are required to halt Tyranid activity), as of 815-816. M41, ie the game default time settings, everyone believes the 'nids to be extinct.

Now sure, naturally, it is possible in some limited way to use them, gene-stealer cults, scouts etc, however I'd need a pretty good reason to use them personally. I tend to like the simple narrative consistency that says at the moment they are believed exterminated.

Tullio said:

Astartes face the same hazards as everyone else when it comes to long distance warp travel. Can it be done. Yes. But there doesn't seem to be much of reason for it. It makes much more sense that the Deathwatch would recruit a kill team from Chapters that are relatively close to whatever situation that needs to be addressed. This isn't simply a matter of not wanting to travel great distances through warp if it's unnecessary. It's also a matter of timing. Say a genestealer cult is discovered on a hive world within or near the Calixis sector, and it is determined that a kill team is needed to perform a precision strike on it with the intent of killing the Patriarch. By the time battle brothers from the Ultramarines or, for that matter, the Blood Angels arrive (a time span that would be measured in many months if not a couple of years) the cult will have overrun the planet leaving no other answer but Exterminatus. It's simply impractical.

That said, can it be rationalized? Yes, but let's not kid ourselves and call it anything other than rationalization. The Ultramarines are being included in this game for no other reason than their name recognition, not because they actually make sense within the locale of the setting. That's fine for what it's worth, but let's call a spade a spade.

Atheosis said:

It happens pretty much every hundred years or so, or events like it. The 13th Black Crusade, the Gothic War, several crusades going on at any one time.... so yea, it happens all the time, given how time means less in the 40k setting.

And since Tyranids have been said to attack some areas in Obscurus, yes, expertise in combating them would be very useful in that region.

MILLANDSON said:

Err...since when?

Oh and Black Crusades are, on average, eight hundred years apart, not a hundred, so like I said it doesn't happen all the time.

Atheosis said:

Having Tyranid activity in Obscurus in 815.M41 is unlikely to say the least if you ask me.

There's no doubt MASSIVE wars against many other enemies are always raging across the Imperium however. I seem to recall in one of the Gaunt's Ghosts (or it might have been the Guide to the Sabbat Wars book) that at the time the Sabbat Wars were raging there were 7 or 8 conflicts of similar scale also going on across the Galaxy. That's the norm, not even including Black Crusades and the big specific Tyranid attacks, which dates we know.

So BIG wars yes. Tyranid attacks in Obscurus, in 815.M41, doubtful ... highly doubtful.

Atheosis said:

As France said, wars on the scale of a Black Crusade happen fairly frequently. That is why I pointed out the Gothic War as one such example in my original post, which you seem to have ignored.

As for the Tyranids, others on this forum have mentioned that there is fluff saying that Obscurus sectors have been hit by Tyranid attacks (I believe it was the Scarus Sector, though I'd need one of the people who mentioned the book to confirm that). Either way, the map of Hive Fleets across the galaxy in the Tyranid codex indicates that there are Tyranids (The Remnants of Hive Fleet Tamet, or possibly the full Hive Fleet Tamet, in 815.M41) in the vicinity.

Plus, even if Tyranid Hive Fleets weren't turning up, what is there to stop genestealer cults popping up over the place, which seem to often be dealt with by Deathwatch, or of lone Lictors scouting out planets for the swarm? The fluff seems to suggest they operate all over Imperial space, and why would FFG have included Tyranids in CA (when they have always stated that all of DH's books cover and take place in Calixis) if they weren't in the area?

MILLANDSON said:

The Gothic War was the 12th Black Crusade. It happened in the second century of the 41st millenium. I didn't ignore it.

Admittedly there was an encounter in the Segmentum Obscurus with what are suspected to be Tyranid bioforms in M35 which has since been referred to as the remnants of Hive Fleet Tiamet. That said I'm not so sure they would need Tyrand fighting specialists due to that one isolated incident some six thousand years before present time (within the setting), and it certainly doesn't constitute an immediate Tyranid threat to that portion of the Imperium. As far as genestealer cults go, they've been rampant for a while so I would imagine many Chapters would be well versed in dealing with them.

I'm sorry but it just seems like you're grasping at straws to me, but you have a right to your opinion.