1 hour ago, jayc007 said:

All of the weapon crafting sounds good, although I would think there are more than a few instances of weapons being present on ships 2 sil or more smaller than "allowed". So having it only selectable once may not be the best option.

As to the accessible systems mod... I don't see why it couldn't be applied to almost any sil. All it really has to be is quick release panels or nicely organized cableing and systems.

The plan was once only, but I am thinking of dropping it entirely and leave the gunship hull as the only way to get an oversized weapon. Because I didn't want them to go 2 sizes "bigger than normal". But if you're saying that's desired then the 2 sizes too big can still be accomplished by miniaturizing the weapon once and selecting the gunship hull. And maybe the oversized weapon mount in dangerous covenants could get it to 3 sizes too big, depending on phrasing. Then an airspeeder elegant designed to an iron man suit maybe could mount 1 vehicle weapon normally restricted to a sil 4 ship. Which I think is a little ridiculous, so I'd want to either ditch the miniaturization crafting upgrade or phrase the gunship hull ability to mount oversized weapons to not stack with the oversized weapons mount from dangerous covenants.

I was thinking of stripping off the x3 limitation on linked because they're going to need a huge amount of advantage to get use out of it anyway.

But I was debating with myself about a 2 triumph autofire upgrade which would reduce the cost to activate linked from 2 advantage to 1.

On a side note, I'm shooting for about a 95% similarity match on about 95% of all official starships from other current sources. I think that trying to be able to reproduce every ship without allowing unbalanced/broken ships is a hopeless endeavor.

My philosophy/goal is to allow the players to make ships that excel at anything but not at everything.

On 4/21/2018 at 12:41 AM, EliasWindrider said:

Here's what I have so far

https://www.mediafire.com/file/ybl46t4cq4wmhs4/TheNubianDesignCollectivesWholeVehicleCraftingHandbook.pptx

it's not even close to a first draft (maybe version 0.1), but I wanted to get some early feedback about the direction I'm taking.

Updated it again, now it has the text descriptions for hulls, and the tables for assembly, and several attachments, the rules for crafting weapons aren't in there yet, were maybe at version 0.6. Other than missing prices and available hard points for frames (which are TBD), and a way to set/increase consumables, it should be sufficient to make star ships now (assuming you install stock weapons).

FEEDBACK WOULD BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED

Very shortly I'm going to ask the community to try to get as close as they can to their favorite extreme case starship found in official ffg products in the most "efficient" manner possible, and tell me how many hard points it'd take (including the unspent hp of the official ships), and how many net advantage/triumph would be needed on each of the 4 rolls (note that the hwk-1000 should be extremely easy to duplicate, freighter frame, race ship hull, 1 dedicated cargo bay, and ion turbine engines with a lot of the enhanced output engine crafting upgrade, there's a little more to it than that but not much)

21 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Updated it again, now it has the text descriptions for hulls, and the tables for assembly, and several attachments, the rules for crafting weapons aren't in there yet, were maybe at version 0.6. Other than missing prices and available hard points for frames (which are TBD), and a way to set/increase consumables, it should be sufficient to make star ships now (assuming you install stock weapons).

FEEDBACK WOULD BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED

Very shortly I'm going to ask the community to try to get as close as they can to their favorite extreme case starship found in official ffg products in the most "efficient" manner possible, and tell me how many hard points it'd take (including the unspent hp of the official ships), and how many net advantage/triumph would be needed on each of the 4 rolls (note that the hwk-1000 should be extremely easy to duplicate, freighter frame, race ship hull, 1 dedicated cargo bay, and ion turbine engines with a lot of the enhanced output engine crafting upgrade, there's a little more to it than that but not much)

If anyone can't make a fairly close approximation of their favorite official ship with what I posted last night (the link was updated on the mediafire side of things, so no broken links), I'd love to hear about it (actually I'd love to here about it either way, you don'tknow something works until it's been thoroughly tested), and if someone would take a run at making an ISD as a destroyer frame with a gunship hull and tell me what the base hp, crew, would have to be... it would be greatly appreciated (I see it as the most likely point of failure), I'm at the point were I need play test feedback so I can interactively refine/tweak the rules.

Could people also try to make an

Action V or is it IV from eote core (likely a freighter frame with larger design or Corvette with a freighter hull)

CR90 (likely a Corvette with a freighter or transport hull)

Dp20 (likely a patrol ship with a gunship hull)

Nebulon B (frigate with I don't know what for a hull)

Marauder Corvette (likely a Corvette with a carrier hull)

Raider Corvette (friends like these, likely a patrol ship with a gunship hull)

The akjor (sp?) Shuttle from friends like these

Consular (both versions)

Ir-3f (likely a patrol ship with freighter hull)

Any other sil 5 speed 5 ship,

The mc30 frigate (I think that's the name of the sil 6 speed 4 frigate, either a frigate with a race ship hull or a patrol ship frame with larger design and your choice of hull, but I don't think the crew would come out anywhere close with a patrol ship frame)

Awing (starfighter with a race ship hull)

Tie interceptor (star fighter with a race ship hull)

Xwing

All of the sil 4 and smaller ships from no disintegration (the patrol boat heavy starfighter would likely need to be a starfighter with a gunship hull)

Gonzati and CROC gonzati

Any carrier

In previous editions of the game I was a fan of the strike class cruiser, I'm not aware of it showed up in ffg star wars yet.

Iron man suit (air speeder elegant design, probably a gunship hull, but maybe a scout ship)

And anyone who wants to try to abuse the system to make something broken (for playtesting purposes of course) I'd love to hear about it too, how many hp would the frame you choose need to be broketastic?

And I'm somewhat aware of my own biases so please make sure I didn't make the patrol ship frame and scout ship hull too good/broken.

And I'm somewhat afraid of a patrol ship frame with elegant design and a race ship hull providing a way to get a sil 4 speed 6 ship out of the box (i.e. before high output in turbines are added) by itself it wouldn't be too bad but it might be a monster if it can be awesome at a bunch of other stuff too.

And could someone try making a mon cal cruise liner, I'm thinking a heavy cruiser with a transport hull.

And space stations.

BTW the hard points provided by frames with likely be a per frame linear function of silhouette so using elegant design on a small ship will cost you 1 hp and using it on a large ship will likely cost you 2-5 hard points, using larger design likewise gains you one or more hard points.

With the regular weapon and armor construction rules, a success get's you the basic item. So I recommend that you consider balancing it so that succeeding with no advantage can get you close to the stock ships.

1 hour ago, Ahrimon said:

With the regular weapon and armor construction rules, a success get's you the basic item. So I recommend that you consider balancing it so that succeeding with no advantage can get you close to the stock ships.

A basic starfighter would be a z95 vs. an xwing. But I'm not far from what you're thinking

Fair warning, I have not read all of the posts on here so I may repeat your recommendations, sorry ahead of time. I went ahead and tried to build one of my favorite ships in the game and movies, Home One, using the PowerPoint that was attached . The character that will be trying this would have to have about 300 experience invested into their mechanics skill and engineering trees. I went ahead and went down Mechanic and Shipwright. It resulted in a 5 int and 5 mechanics. I have ways through gear and talents to get 4 extra advantage, one extra success and 5 blue. Additionally, I can reduce the difficulty of mechanics checks and reroll a check if necessary. I decided to use the books prescribed hard points as a guide for this build (for my own sanity).

I Started with the Destroyer frame. After rolling, I had 1T and 7adv to spend on the table. Home one is a silhouette 9 so I purchased "larger scope". I am trying to get to a massive 3 so I also got "too big to hurt". Cant have enough hard points so I grabbed that. since this character would have been played several sessions and would really deserve it, I spent the rest on Hard work recognized.

early concerns

I am a bit low on health at only 141 to the Home One's. See page 56 of lead by example

You might consider changing "hard work recognized". A character played to this point has probably built up to this for some time. The player will be just shaking to have their new star destroyer (mwahahaha) but 2 duty... it just feels a bit low. The build isn't over I suppose and the GM might award more duty but maybe changing "hard work recognized" to the silhouette size worth of duty(reflecting several sessions of work) might be more rewarding to the character and the player.

Continuing on, I decided on the Ion turbine engines as my limitation on speed is two (silhouette limitations) and, with mods, this meets without going over. Furthermore, the ITE also have a good strain associated to it so that seems like a good choice. My roll resulted in 9 adv to spend on the table. I picked up all the mods on the engines and added "enhanced power to deflectors". My defense is a 4/1/1/1 with 104 Strain threshold. Any concern I had about getting those fantastic Mon Cal shields will be somewhat addressed when we get to the hull.

The hulls are better then they were in the book. Thank you. That being said, I am going to hit most of my problems here (as I think most people did when they got the book). My role resulted in 1T and 8 Adv to spend on the chart. I am trying to get that massive rank up so I got "too tough to hurt". This is where I run into my first problem both in the book and the PowerPoint. The way it is worded makes me think they don't stack "gain massive 1" vs "gain +1 massive ranks" or something along those lines. that may have been cleared up but it might not hurt to rewrite if they are supposed to stack. If they are not supposed to stack getting to a massive 3 (building a really big ship mid you) will be very difficult. Also the combat hull gave the +1 massive quality that would have gotten me to three (assuming the other two stack) but that is not a hull in your rendition. I do like the additional HP mods but it is not clear how I would calculate the extra personnel. If my stock ship was 3 would it become 9 and then 27 or would it increase to 9 from 3 and increase by an additional 6 to 15? for something the size of a Star destroyer its important. I like that there was a very good attempt at getting the build more gun slots though. Now the part that was the most detrimental was the oversized attachments and specials. I don't really need them from about silhouette 7 and up. I knw why they are there but you might consider making the oversized weapon stuff be interchangeable for more armor, defense zones increases or hit points. I ended up after spending everything with less hp and armor (141 hp and 7 armor). I also gained an integrated attachment and another hard point.

I love your "dedicated bays". This is fantastic hands down best stuff added. I went for 4 of the cargo bays bringing me to 90k encumbrance. This is a little better than home one. I also went with only one repair bay but only because I didn't know how much they cost after the first one. do they get cheaper or more expensive? I might consider a second if they get cheaper. I got 4 medical bays (its a big ship). I got the engineering access and the escape pods. I need to long range sensors so I went advanced as well getting the hyper drive. I also picked up the reinforced armor mod and the shield generator mod. Lastly, I decided 6 hanger bays would allow me to get the fighter and auxiliary ships of the home one. 9 silhouette 9 Armor -2 handling 2 speed 147 HT and 104 strain threshold.

so I have one integrated attachment and 12 hp for weapons. I could back off one cargo bay, one med bay, and one hanger bay. I would feel a bit low on the hangers and med stations but it would work. I would officially have less encumbrance than Home one. So 16 guns. That doesn't work obviously. if we run the rules as they stand I need about 140-165 more hp to be at the right point. you might consider allowing the players to buy banks of weapons on corvettes up. The bank would be your silhouette+1. If we did this I would be able to put 120-200 weapon systems on the ship which is in the ball park for 9s. I would say without changing how purchasing guns works the destroyer needs like 200 hps (I feel like something is wrong just saying that) but if there is a change to a bank system you need 19-25.

I hope this was useful feedback. Maybe you can explain some of the things I don't entirely understand. Also, if there is any other way I can help feel free to ask. May the force be with you.

On 5/1/2018 at 1:00 AM, TheTubaTanker said:

Fair warning, I have not read all of the posts on here so I may repeat your recommendations, sorry ahead of time. I went ahead and tried to build one of my favorite ships in the game and movies, Home One, using the PowerPoint that was attached . The character that will be trying this would have to have about 300 experience invested into their mechanics skill and engineering trees. I went ahead and went down Mechanic and Shipwright. It resulted in a 5 int and 5 mechanics. I have ways through gear and talents to get 4 extra advantage, one extra success and 5 blue. Additionally, I can reduce the difficulty of mechanics checks and reroll a check if necessary. I decided to use the books prescribed hard points as a guide for this build (for my own sanity).

I Started with the Destroyer frame. After rolling, I had 1T and 7adv to spend on the table. Home one is a silhouette 9 so I purchased "larger scope". I am trying to get to a massive 3 so I also got "too big to hurt". Cant have enough hard points so I grabbed that. since this character would have been played several sessions and would really deserve it, I spent the rest on Hard work recognized.

early concerns

I am a bit low on health at only 141 to the Home One's. See page 56 of lead by example

You might consider changing "hard work recognized". A character played to this point has probably built up to this for some time. The player will be just shaking to have their new star destroyer (mwahahaha) but 2 duty... it just feels a bit low. The build isn't over I suppose and the GM might award more duty but maybe changing "hard work recognized" to the silhouette size worth of duty(reflecting several sessions of work) might be more rewarding to the character and the player.

Continuing on, I decided on the Ion turbine engines as my limitation on speed is two (silhouette limitations) and, with mods, this meets without going over. Furthermore, the ITE also have a good strain associated to it so that seems like a good choice. My roll resulted in 9 adv to spend on the table. I picked up all the mods on the engines and added "enhanced power to deflectors". My defense is a 4/1/1/1 with 104 Strain threshold. Any concern I had about getting those fantastic Mon Cal shields will be somewhat addressed when we get to the hull.

The hulls are better then they were in the book. Thank you. That being said, I am going to hit most of my problems here (as I think most people did when   they got the book). My role resulted in 1T and 8 Adv to spend on the chart. I am trying to get that massive rank up so I got "too tough to hurt". This is where I run into my first problem both in the book and the PowerPoint. The way it is worded makes me think they don't stack "gain massive 1" vs "gain +1 massive ranks" or something along those lines. that may have been cleared up but it might not hurt to rewrite if they are supposed to stack. If they are not supposed to stack getting to a massive 3 (building a really big ship mid you) will be very difficult. Also the combat hull gave the +1 massive quality that would have gotten me to three (assuming the other two stack) but that is not a hull in your rendition. I do like the additional HP mods but it is not clear how I would calculate the extra personnel. If my stock ship was 3 would it become 9 and then 27 or would it increase to 9 from 3 and increase by an additional 6 to 15? for something the size of a Star destroyer its important. I like that there was a very good attempt at getting the build more gun slots though. Now the part that was the most detrimental was the oversized attachments and specials. I don't really need them from about silhouette 7 and up. I know why they are there but you might consider making the oversized weapon stuff be interchangeable for more armor, defense zones increases or hit points. I ended up after spending everything with less hp and armor (141 hp and 7 armor). I also gained an integrated attachment and another hard point.  

I love your "dedicated bays". This is fantastic hands down best stuff added. I went for 4 of the cargo bays bringing me to 90k encumbrance. This is a little better than home one. I also went with only one repair bay but only because I didn't know how much they cost after the first one. do they get cheaper or more expensive? I might consider a second if they get cheaper. I got 4 medical bays (its a big ship). I got the engineering access and the escape pods. I need to long range sensors so I went advanced as well getting the hyper drive. I also picked up the reinforced armor mod and the shield generator mod. Lastly, I decided 6 hanger bays would allow me to get the fighter and auxiliary ships of the home one. 9 silhouette 9 Armor -2 handling 2 speed 147 HT and 104 strain threshold.

so I have one integrated attachment and 12 hp for weapons. I could back off one cargo bay, one med bay, and one hanger bay. I would feel a bit low on the hangers and med stations but it would work. I would officially have less encumbrance than Home one. So 16 guns. That doesn't work obviously. if we run the rules as they stand I need about 140-165 more hp to be at the right point. you might consider allowing the players to buy banks of weapons on corvettes up. The bank would be your silhouette+1. If we did this I would be able to put 120-200 weapon systems on the ship which is in the ball park for 9s. I would say without changing how purchasing guns works the destroyer needs like 200 hps (I feel like something is wrong just saying that) but if there is a change to a bank system you need 19-25.

I hope this was useful feedback. Maybe you can explain some of the things I don't entirely understand. Also, if there is any other way I can help feel free to ask. May the force be with you.

Useful feedback, 3->9->27 for crew

Glad you liked the bays, I figured they were necessary

The interpretation I was going with on weapons was that one battery cost 1 hp, but we're still talking about 138 hp needed. So I can change it to 4 add silhouette hp and double the crew (so all 4 would be x16 to base crews) and you would then have 18 extra hp, so only 120 more needed, now hp will be a ??linear?? function of sillhoute, but in this case I think vsl, which would be 80, so increase the base by 40.

I will change hard work recognized to increase duty by silhouette and you can only take it once. I can also add a triumph, frame upgrade to increase hull trauma threshold by silhouette.

Can you take another run at this and an ISD, with the revised rules in this post

I'm thinking a base of 800 crew for a destroyer. Then use integrated improvements to get to 500 crew and x16 to 6,400 crew (compared to the home one's ~5,500)

And seriously I don't have a problem with a sil 9 destroyer gunship having a little less than 200 hp, there isn't enough stuff to spend it on other than weapons and if you want to skimp on weapons to get a whole lot of other upgrades I don't see that as an issue. Also for an elegant design destroyer without the gunship hull, you'd have 66 fewer hp.

The bank thing might be an idea with a number of banks per sil already factored in to the build... at least on war ships anyway. Something like a sil 4 corvette has 4 banks of 4 weapons and a sil9 has 9 banks of 9. Spend an hp to add another bank of weapons = sil... ie a sil 9 ship would spend an hp to add another bank of 9 weapons. So a sil4 corvette would have 16 weapons and a sil9 destroyer would have 81.

Or mayhaps something related to vsl?

I made something for Genesys, a modification of the weapon and armour Craftsmanship rules. I doubt it will fit in this project but since there’s a bunch of vehicle enthusiasts here I thought I would post for feedback:

Vehicle Craftsmanship!

All vehicle attributes have a minimum of 1

Junk Yard Beater:

This vehicle has seen it all, and some! It’s falling to bits, covered in rust and held together with zip ties. At least it was cheap.

-2 Handling, -2 Speed, -Silhouette System Strain (reduce system strain by the Silhouette of the vehicle), -2 Hull Trauma, -1 Hard Points.

Rarity: -3

Price: x0.25

Remove all Weapons systems from this vehicle, including the Hard Points associated with them.

Old Faithful:

This vehicle is nothing special, nothing extraordinary, it’s been around the block a few times but it’s been looked after too:

Attributes: -1 Handling, -1 Speed, -2 System Strain,

Rarity: -1

Price: x0.75

Shiny New:

This vehicle is right off the production line, smell that new smell as all those plastics degas? It’s great isn’t it.

Attributes: No change

Rarity: No change

Price: No change

Modified:

This vehicle has been in the hands of a tuner, it’s optimised for performance, or perhaps for comfort, either way it looks like it’s gonna chop you.

Attributes: Handling +1, Speed +1, System Strain -2

Add 1 automatic Advantage to social checks made within Medium Range of your vehicle.

Rarity: +2

Price: x2

Racer:

This vehicle is built for speed, flat out, unadulterated speed at the compromise of all else.

Attributes: Handling +3, Speed +2, System Strain +Silhouette, Hull Trauma -2, Hard Points -3, Armour -1, Defence -1 all zones

Rarity: +4

Price x4

Military:

Modified or of a specific manufacture, this is a military vehicle. It’s tough, fast, reliable and armoured.

Attributes: Speed +1, System Strain +Silhouette, Hull Trauma +Silhouette, Armour +1, Defence +1 all zones, Hard Points -2,

If this vehicle is normally not armed then select one weapons system to add to the vehicle at no hard point cost, the weapon must only require a single Hard Point, can not have Breach, and must normally be able to be installed on a vehicle of this Silhouette.

Rarity: 10(Restricted)

Price: x8

Hwk 290.

I struggled with this. As a fighter frame -

Sil3,

Htt 10

Crew 1

Pax 0

2 A - double crew

2 A - extra HP

16 A - 8 htt ( up to 18 total) (I think this takes too much and does too little... maybe 1 A for 2 htt is Better?)

Ok so scrap that... 20 A is not realistic to get on most rolls. Unless you allow the use of multiple tools each adding an advantage and upgrading the roll that is. I think most gms would not so yeah 20 A is not a realistic goal.

Ok so freghter frame? Htt 25? Nope.

Ok shuttle it is... 20 htt is reasonable. It's only 2 over the hwk 290s 18. But it comes with its own problem. As in 10 pax. So we need a way to convert pax cap to enc. If we use 7 enc per pax then we convert 8 pax to get 56 enc plus 20 for 76 enc. Reasonable.

So using a shuttle frame we have

3 A elegant design

2 A extra hp

So sil3 shuttle with an extra hp 2 crew 2 pax 76 enc and 20 htt... on to engines.

Looking at the options... they all have positives and negatives so looks like the easiest to choose is the single ion coil.

Speed 1 (up to 4)

Sst 6 (2×sil - up to 5×sil)

3 A deflectors for 1/1 shields

6 A increase sst by 1 (same problem in my eyes too many A for too little gain)

4 A enhanced output for +2 to speed just so we don' have to do 6 mods to the engine.

So 13 A... again a little much...(using the raceship we can use less A here...)

6 A for increase speed by 3

Speed 4

Sst 15 ( using 3 mods)

Race ship hull is probably the best fit.

Armour 0

Handling 2

Increase sst by sil mod

Increase defense by 1 in 2 arcs mod

2 A extra hp

4 A +2 to armour

If we have 2 T we can add sensors and hyperdrive, otherwise we will have 2 extra HP for that when we are all finished.

So the stats for this copy are slightly better but not by much.

Speed 4 handling +2 armour 2 htt 20 sst 18

2 crew 2 pax 76 enc

Hyper drive

Sensors short

5 A on frame

6 A on engines and 3 mods

6 A on hull and 2 mods

+2 hp

We used 3 on the engines and ... its not listed on the hulls? And 2 for the hyperdrive and sensors (unless we got 2 triumphs building the hull). So 5 + X hp used and 2 to spare

As to price... well I didn't do that... this was just to see what is take to make it.

I'l do more ships as I get the time.

So one thing missing is consumables... and then in the building the hull the add "3 months of" should maybe be some result of the vsl. Larger ships could easily add more than 6 months of consumables... however that is ONLY on the scout ship. No other ship has an option for adding consumables.

Another thing is it'd be nice if there was an option to reduce the hp cost of engines and hulls and such using A or T... perhaps on the buiding the frame (customizable - all attachments require 1 less hp to a minimum of 1) or on the components (easier to install - requires 1 less hp to install this item)

ISD build is odd.

HT 60+65+4=129 (I used adv to get 4 more), sil 8, speed 2, shields are 6/3/3/3, Strain threshold 94, handling -1, armor 7, crew is 12,800, encumbrance is about 18k

I have 4 hanger bays, 3 cargo bays, 3 med bays hyper drive and sensors and I have massive 2.

I have generated 21 left over hard points at this point. I am going to try to fix a few things before we do weapons. ( there are 130 on an isd)

Enhanced carbon-durasteel armor (8 armor -2 handling) core rule book 286, 2hard points spent

Reinforced armor plating (armor 10 handling -3 HT 135), 2 hard points spent

I have 17 Hard points after fixing the armor handling and trying to get some HT

concerns/comments/questions

1. HT is still really hard to get. I ran this with five yellow dice and I still only get 1 triumph about half the time and none the rest. While a triumph for silhouette of HT was a move in the right direction you might consider moving the two advantage for one (I took this four times) and make it three advantage for your silhouette in HT with a limitation of two times per vehicle. This would allow fighters to potentially get 4-6 HT but that is only one more round if it takes a concussion missile or a torpedo so no big deal. I think this is really important because this is the second large build I've done with a character that isn't realistic and both ships have come out 10+ HT off before attachments.

2. You might consider making a different hull with silhouette requirements. Make the gun ship about having oversized weapons and keeping its handling up a little more. Give it 2 silhouette of hard points but double the crew mods. Only give it one defense mod and one armor mod. Then make a ship of the line hull with a silhouette requirement of 7 and up. it would have a 4 base armor and a -2 handling. It would need two defense mods and two armor mods. It would also get 4 silhouette of hard point but double the crew (base crew needs to be 1000 rather than 800 it is an easier number and totals need to be bigger). The ship also needs a built in way to get HT. gain hit point mods I don't know what you could do that was special other than maybe give it a free rank of massive.

3. I would say that the destroyer needs to have about 60+VSL hard points available to it. This build would have had 21+125= 146 hard points when we got to the weapons and attachment part of the build.

4. Both large builds have had a decent amount of shield and strain threshold above what the target was. If there was a built in way to spend shield generation power or strain so that people could get something cool you might find people end up with strain thresholds closer to the target ships.

5. Can you explain how the repair bays are purchased? What benefit would there be to having multiple other than its a large ship it might be nice to have two? Its probably fine I just don't get it.

6. Just a thought (please don't crucify me) what about a gravity well generator to help spend strain or shields? how would it work? Is that even a reasonable thing?

I think this is making progress. Thanks for considering my input. May the force be with you.

5 hours ago, TheTubaTanker said:

ISD build is odd.

HT 60+65+4=129 (I used adv to get 4 more), sil 8, speed 2, shields are 6/3/3/3, Strain threshold 94, handling -1, armor 7, crew is 12,800, encumbrance is about 18k

I have 4 hanger bays, 3 cargo bays, 3 med bays hyper drive and sensors and I have massive 2.

I have generated 21 left over hard points at this point. I am going to try to fix a few things before we do weapons. ( there are 130 on an isd)

Enhanced carbon-durasteel armor (8 armor -2 handling) core rule book 286, 2hard points spent

Reinforced armor plating (armor 10 handling -3 HT 135), 2 hard points spent

I have 17 Hard points after fixing the armor handling and trying to get some HT

concerns/comments/questions

1. HT is still really hard to get. I ran this with five yellow dice and I still only get 1 triumph about half the time and none the rest. While a triumph for silhouette of HT was a move in the right direction you might consider moving the two advantage for one (I took this four times) and make it three advantage for your silhouette in HT with a limitation of two times per vehicle. This would allow fighters to potentially get 4-6 HT but that is only one more round if it takes a concussion missile or a torpedo so no big deal. I think this is really important because this is the second large build I've done with a character that isn't realistic and both ships have come out 10+ HT off before attachments.

2. You might consider making a different hull with silhouette requirements. Make the gun ship about having oversized weapons and keeping its handling up a little more. Give it 2 silhouette of hard points but double the crew mods. Only give it one defense mod and one armor mod. Then make a ship of the line hull with a silhouette requirement of 7 and up. it would have a 4 base armor and a -2 handling. It would need two defense mods and two armor mods. It would also get 4 silhouette of hard point but double the crew (base crew needs to be 1000 rather than 800 it is an easier number and totals need to be bigger). The ship also needs a built in way to get HT. gain hit point mods I don't know what you could do that was special other than maybe give it a free rank of massive.

3. I would say that the destroyer needs to have about 60+VSL hard points available to it. This build would have had 21+125= 146 hard points when we got to the weapons and attachment part of the build.

4. Both large builds have had a decent amount of shield and strain threshold above what the target was. If there was a built in way to spend shield generation power or strain so that people could get something cool you might find people end up with strain thresholds closer to the target ships.

5. Can you explain how the repair bays are purchased? What benefit would there be to having multiple other than its a large ship it might be nice to have two? Its probably fine I just don't get it.

6. Just a thought (please don't crucify me) what about a gravity well generator to help spend strain or shields? how would it work? Is that even a reasonable thing?

I think this is making progress. Thanks for considering my input. May the force be with you.

Each dedicated repair bay normally costs 3 hp, but for a carrier frame, destroyer frame, or space station frame with any hull other than a carrier hull it costs 2 hp, and for carrier hull on anything other than a carrier destroyer or space station frame it also costs 2 hp, and for a carrier hull on a carrier, destroyer, or space station frame it only costs 1 hp. Repair bays are a hybrid hanger and cargo bay that also grant a boost dice to repair the vehicles in the repair bay easier. If you need to repair a lot of vehicles at the same time they are beneficial, also if you only need to carry a few vehicles then they can be better to have than a hanger bag. And if you're just a few silhouette shy for the number of fighters/etc you need to carry, then you can get one of these and pick up a few enc and improved ability to repair the vehicles you're carrying.

I'm going to add a new ship of the line hull, it will have a modification option to gain additional hull trauma threshold, extra armor, can receive the weapon banks 2 hp attachment (for heavy cruisers, destroyers, and space stations, the weapon banks attachment costs 1 hp instead, a weapon bank attachment can mount something like 2xsilhouette linked 3 weapons) have weapon banks for 1 hp, and grants massive 1, it will be restricted to ships of sil 5 or larger, like the gunship it will be able to gain hp by taking requiring larger crew

Accompanying this, destroyers will have a base crew probably between 5,00 and 10,000 and previously posted formulas for hp will be revised.

Elegant design will now halve BOTH crew and passenger capacity and cost 3 advantage or 1 triumph. Larger scope will double both crew and passenger capacity.

The reason to start with a larger ship and use elegant design is you will end up with more hp than by starting at the desired size.

There will be a "highly automated" or similar attachment, probably 2 hp, that reduces crew requirements by 25%, with 2 mods to reduce it by an additional 25% of the crew requirements without this attachment. If anyone has a suggestion for a better name for the attachment than highly automated it'd be appreciated.

So a home one look a like will need to use integrated improvements, and maybe the

There will be a (normally) 2hp (1 hp for silhouette >= 4) life support attachment that provides consumables for VSL days, it has silhouette mods that each increase consumables by VSL days, you can take this attachment multiple times. The reason ships don't get this for free is because speeder bikes, landspeeders, airspeeders, and walkers don't usually need them.

Gravity well generators are needed, I'll need to read any extant rules, but I think it's ships can't jump to hyperspace while with a certain number of range bands. I can see it lowering strain threshold. But the ships in questions don't have them. Also the difficulty of modding a hull or engine increases with the number of mods that have been made, so pretty soon you get to impossible difficulties.

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Each dedicated repair bay normally costs 3 hp, but for a carrier frame, destroyer frame, or space station frame with any hull other than a carrier hull it costs 2 hp, and for carrier hull on anything other than a carrier destroyer or space station frame it also costs 2 hp, and for a carrier hull on a carrier, destroyer, or space station frame it only costs 1 hp. Repair bays are a hybrid hanger and cargo bay that also grant a boost dice to repair the vehicles in the repair bay easier. If you need to repair a lot of vehicles at the same time they are beneficial, also if you only need to carry a few vehicles then they can be better to have than a hanger bag. And if you're just a few silhouette shy for the number of fighters/etc you need to carry, then you can get one of these and pick up a few enc and improved ability to repair the vehicles you're carrying.

I'm going to add a new ship of the line hull, it will have a modification option to gain additional hull trauma threshold, extra armor, can receive the weapon banks 2 hp attachment (for heavy cruisers, destroyers, and space stations, the weapon banks attachment costs 1 hp instead, a weapon bank attachment can mount something like 2xsilhouette linked 3 weapons) have weapon banks for 1 hp, and grants massive 1, it will be restricted to ships of sil 5 or larger, like the gunship it will be able to gain hp by taking requiring larger crew

Accompanying this, destroyers will have a base crew probably between 5,00 and 10,000 and previously posted formulas for hp will be revised.

Elegant design will now halve BOTH crew and passenger capacity and cost 3 advantage or 1 triumph. Larger scope will double both crew and passenger capacity.

The reason to start with a larger ship and use elegant design is you will end up with more hp than by starting at the desired size.

There will be a "highly automated" or similar attachment, probably 2 hp, that reduces crew requirements by 25%, with 2 mods to reduce it by an additional 25% of the crew requirements without this attachment. If anyone has a suggestion for a better name for the attachment than highly automated it'd be appreciated.

So a home one look a like will need to use integrated improvements, and maybe the

There will be a (normally) 2hp (1 hp for silhouette >= 4) life support attachment that provides consumables for VSL days, it has silhouette mods that each increase consumables by VSL days, you can take this attachment multiple times. The reason ships don't get this for free is because speeder bikes, landspeeders, airspeeders, and walkers don't usually need them.

Gravity well generators are needed, I'll need to read any extant rules, but I think it's ships can't jump to hyperspace while with a certain number of range bands. I can see it lowering strain threshold. But the ships in questions don't have them. Also the difficulty of modding a hull or engine increases with the number of mods that have been made, so pretty soon you get to impossible difficulties.

I previously recommended weapons banks however, after thinking about the concept I asked myself what are problems are we solving by adding this (we should change as little as possible right)? Also, how will people run this? So, after putting this under more intense thought, I would ask if you intend to increase the number of hard points into the hundreds or just add this "bank" system? If you do intend to make destroyers with 140-200 hard points, do we need weapons banks? Remember, if there are ways to get another 32 hard points through hull mods we could see a very healthy 160-230 ish hard points at the base construction. If all systems only take up 20-30 hard points that leaves 120-210 hard points for weapons. So if we are just concerned with "does the ship have enough weapons?" we don't need weapons banks for ships with 150+ hard points because we will have enough hard points for a full weapons compliment. However, the "weapons bank" idea is useful when considering how people are going to run these monstrosities. It is very likely that players will run the banks for barrage actions as opposed to just making checks for each battery (it would destroy the cinematic aspect of the game). So if we reduce the number of hard points back down to 50 (just picked a random number) and we need 3 for engines and 15-25 for bays, that leaves 22-32 for weapons banks. We can also get rid of 8 of those (we are now down to 14-24) for attachments people might want to add after construction. 14-24 weapons banks would be a lot of weapons even if the banks were a single silhouette worth of weapons. An ISD could get 112-192 weapons. If you then put the requirement that the weapons in each bank had to be the same you limit the variety of weapons making the barrages function. An additional benefit would be that the other people at the table don't have to suffer through one guy hand picking 150+ individual hard points worth of weapons. This rough calculation of 112-192 weapons works for both the 130 weapons of the Imperial 1 class Star destroyer and the 150 weapons of the Praetor 2 class star battle cruiser. Also, you would be allowed in this situation to have 14 different kinds of weapons giving a builder 9 additional types of weapons compared the ISDs 5 types of weapon systems.

I seriously recommend not going to silhouette 5 with the ship of the line hull type. Under no situation should a corvette be considered a ship of the line in Star Wars. Even a frigate at silhouette 6 is pushing what I think most people would consider a ship of the line. The really crazy one would be a shuttle up sized to 5 getting ahold of several weapons banks. Moving the silhouette 6 would allow for really hefty corvettes and frigates to get small banks for more of their HPs which wouldn't be TOO bad but I think even this could pushed to broken.

I would have the "decreased crew thing" be something you spend advantage on at some point but it would also reduce your strain threshold. Either that or its a bay of some kind with a limitation of one per ship (2 for carriers, heavy cruisers, destroyers, and stations) and it still puts stress on the ship.

I wouldn't worry about increasing the difficulty of each mod on the Hull and engine because in the case of large ships you are going to have some crazy engineers (possibly teams or parties of engineers) and you can make their checks formidable and they wont care. I would just make sure there aren't more mods on our hulls than there were on the ones in the books. I would allow more for both the gun ship and the ship of the line because they are harder checks to make in the first place and because they are intended to do more anyways. These ships will likely become very important basses of operations and will need to have more work done to them. You might slap on time penalties but at this point the party has been kicking it for like a year so what's a few more hours right.

As far as a gravity well generator, I'm just spit-balling some ideas. There is a really big cannon used by one of the republic ships in Episode 3 that I could imagine putting some strain on the systems. I don't know enough to really come up with anything else that would help lower strain.

I will say as a reflection on these builds ( I have also done the MC30 but I need to do the write up) that it is nice that we are setting the standard as something that is already in the game but we should keep in mind that people might want to build something that is new to the universe. I may sit down and try to break the system at some point and ill let you know how that goes.

Sorry for the wall of text. As always, may the force be with you.

1 hour ago, TheTubaTanker said:

I previously recommended weapons banks however, after thinking about the concept I asked myself what are problems are we solving by adding this (we should change as little as possible right)? Also, how will people run this? So, after putting this under more intense thought, I would ask if you intend to increase the number of hard points into the hundreds or just add this "bank" system? If you do intend to make destroyers with 140-200 hard points, do we need weapons banks? Remember, if there are ways to get another 32 hard points through hull mods we could see a very healthy 160-230 ish hard points at the base construction. If all systems only take up 20-30 hard points that leaves 120-210 hard points for weapons. So if we are just concerned with "does the ship have enough weapons?" we don't need weapons banks for ships with 150+ hard points because we will have enough hard points for a full weapons compliment. However, the "weapons bank" idea is useful when considering how people are going to run these monstrosities. It is very likely that players will run the banks for barrage actions as opposed to just making checks for each battery (it would destroy the cinematic aspect of the game). So if we reduce the number of hard points back down to 50 (just picked a random number) and we need 3 for engines and 15-25 for bays, that leaves 22-32 for weapons banks. We can also get rid of 8 of those (we are now down to 14-24) for attachments people might want to add after construction. 14-24 weapons banks would be a lot of weapons even if the banks were a single silhouette worth of weapons. An ISD could get 112-192 weapons. If you then put the requirement that the weapons in each bank had to be the same you limit the variety of weapons making the barrages function. An additional benefit would be that the other people at the table don't have to suffer through one guy hand picking 150+ individual hard points worth of weapons. This rough calculation of 112-192 weapons works for both the 130 weapons of the Imperial 1 class Star destroyer and the 150 weapons of the Praetor 2 class star battle cruiser. Also, you would be allowed in this situation to have 14 different kinds of weapons giving a builder 9 additional types of weapons compared the ISDs 5 types of weapon systems.

I seriously recommend not going to silhouette 5 with the ship of the line hull type. Under no situation should a corvette be considered a ship of the line in Star Wars. Even a frigate at silhouette 6 is pushing what I think most people would consider a ship of the line. The really crazy one would be a shuttle up sized to 5 getting ahold of several weapons banks. Moving the silhouette 6 would allow for really hefty corvettes and frigates to get small banks for more of their HPs which wouldn't be TOO bad but I think even this could pushed to broken.

I would have the "decreased crew thing" be something you spend advantage on at some point but it would also reduce your strain threshold. Either that or its a bay of some kind with a limitation of one per ship (2 for carriers, heavy cruisers, destroyers, and stations) and it still puts stress on the ship.

I wouldn't worry about increasing the difficulty of each mod on the Hull and engine because in the case of large ships you are going to have some crazy engineers (possibly teams or parties of engineers) and you can make their checks formidable and they wont care. I would just make sure there aren't more mods on our hulls than there were on the ones in the books. I would allow more for both the gun ship and the ship of the line because they are harder checks to make in the first place and because they are intended to do more anyways. These ships will likely become very important basses of operations and will need to have more work done to them. You might slap on time penalties but at this point the party has been kicking it for like a year so what's a few more hours right.

As far as a gravity well generator, I'm just spit-balling some ideas. There is a really big cannon used by one of the republic ships in Episode 3 that I could imagine putting some strain on the systems. I don't know enough to really come up with anything else that would help lower strain.

I will say as a reflection on these builds ( I have also done the MC30 but I need to do the write up) that it is nice that we are setting the standard as something that is already in the game but we should keep in mind that people might want to build something that is new to the universe. I may sit down and try to break the system at some point and ill let you know how that goes.

Sorry for the wall of text. As always, may the force be with you.

no worries about a wall of text.

Yeah the idea behind weapons banks was to really scale back the number of hard points.

Assuming a bank provides silhouette weapons, the Home One has 17 banks worth of weapons (less than 17 more than 16), if each of those cost 1 hp (which is the plan for heavy cruiser, destroyers, and space stations) then a ship of the line would only need 2 double the crew and add silhouette hp,

the asserter class dreadnaught page 56 of lead by example is something I'm worried about making

IF the base crew of a destroyer was 8,000... double that 4 times (larger scope, integrated improvements, 2x for + Silhouette hp) then 8K*16 would be 128K crew and the assertor has 125K crew which is a pretty good match.

the home one would then have 8,000 x2 = 16, with the "highly automated" 2 hp attachment to bring it back down to 4K compared to 5,480 it's not perfect but it's not horrible either. 17 banks of weapons + "highly automated" is 19 HP for the home 1. which is reasonable.

The dp20 gunship is my example of/justification for a silhouette 5 ship of the line (it's essentially a patrol ship frame with a ship of the line hull), it has I think 18 weapons, which essentially 2 short of 4 banks worth of mixed weapons (where each bank provides Silhouette 0 hp weapon mounts), the 4 banks would cost 8 hp, and that would be just shy of 2 silhouette's worth of hp.

When there are a huge number of Mods on a hull, my intent was that would let players choose which ones you want for the sake of flexibility/diversity, I'm not expecting anyone to choose all of them, and they'll eventually be facing impossible (you need to spend a destiny point just to attempt the 5 difficulty check).

I'm not sure if I included all of the changes but I was very close to making a dp20. my HT is within 5 and SS matches. Shields are 3/3/3/6 and I have matching armor with a better handling. This is running the gunship mod so while the DP 20 has more of its light turbo laser its only by 2 but I get medium TL because of the oversized. Instead of 6 Quad laser cannons I went for 4 Quad Ion cannons (heavy) because they have longer range higher dmg and do ion. I also did the 4 concussion missile launchers. I don't have the extra hard point but I have a med bay.

I see the point that there are not enough hp in this situation however the things you have equipped players with (specials and mods) allows for them to make something comparable. The same can be said about the lancer class at sil 5. The lancer is admittedly crap (mechanically, idk lore) but my 14 weapon system ship will have no problem dismantling a lancer and my ions will have no problem shutting down fighters about as fast because more of my damage gets through and I have to shut down a smaller pool of strain. Both the medium tl and the heavy ions are not usable by either the lancer or the dp20 but your gunships access to oversize evens things up.

As for the asserter idk ill have to look at it tomorrow lol

I think the slight difference in fire power ( I don't think its a lack of) in this situation should be left the 5% we just can't get.

oh shoot is the special that it gets a single 1 size up weapon system or that its systems can be one size up?

On 5/2/2018 at 10:21 PM, jayc007 said:

Hwk 290.

I struggled with this. As a fighter frame -

Sil3,

Htt 10

Crew 1

Pax 0

2 A - double crew

2 A - extra HP

16 A - 8 htt ( up to 18 total) (I think this takes too much and does too little... maybe 1 A for 2 htt is Better?)

Ok so scrap that... 20 A is not realistic to get on most rolls. Unless you allow the use of multiple tools each adding an advantage and upgrading the roll that is. I think most gms would not so yeah 20 A is not a realistic goal.

Ok so freghter frame? Htt 25? Nope.

Ok shuttle it is... 20 htt is reasonable. It's only 2 over the hwk 290s 18. But it comes with its own problem. As in 10 pax. So we need a way to convert pax cap to enc. If we use 7 enc per pax then we convert 8 pax to get 56 enc plus 20 for 76 enc. Reasonable.

So using a shuttle frame we have

3 A elegant design

2 A extra hp

So sil3 shuttle with an extra hp 2 crew 2 pax 76 enc and 20 htt... on to engines.

Looking at the options... they all have positives and negatives so looks like the easiest to choose is the single ion coil.

Speed 1 (up to 4)

Sst 6 (2×sil - up to 5×sil)

3 A deflectors for 1/1 shields

6 A increase sst by 1 (same problem in my eyes too many A for too little gain)

4 A enhanced output for +2 to speed just so we don' have to do 6 mods to the engine.

So 13 A... again a little much...(using the raceship we can use less A here...)

6 A for increase speed by 3

Speed 4

Sst 15 ( using 3 mods)

Race ship hull is probably the best fit.

Armour 0

Handling 2

Increase sst by sil mod

Increase defense by 1 in 2 arcs mod

2 A extra hp

4 A +2 to armour

If we have 2 T we can add sensors and hyperdrive, otherwise we will have 2 extra HP for that when we are all finished.

So the stats for this copy are slightly better but not by much.

Speed 4 handling +2 armour 2 htt 20 sst 18

2 crew 2 pax 76 enc

Hyper drive

Sensors short

5 A on frame

6 A on engines and 3 mods

6 A on hull and 2 mods

+2 hp

We used 3 on the engines and ... its not listed on the hulls? And 2 for the hyperdrive and sensors (unless we got 2 triumphs building the hull). So 5 + X hp used and 2 to spare

As to price... well I didn't do that... this was just to see what is take to make it.

I'l do more ships as I get the time.

here's an update

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ybl46t4cq4wmhs4/TheNubianDesignCollectivesWholeVehicleCraftingHandbook.pptx

so let's try the hwk-290 now

shuttle frame, elegant design and integrated improvements, sil3, crew 1, passengers 3 (so 5 advantage or 1 triumph and 2 advantage), and 20 hull trauma threshold

4 hp electron baffled engine with one +2 to speed mod, and 1 increase aft defense by 1 mod, and 2 increase system strain threshold by silhouette mods=> speed 4, 1/1 defense and 18 system strain (no advantage needed, but you could have avoided the engine speed mod by spending 4 advantage)

scout ship hull , 2 armor, +2 handling, +2 hard points, mod to halve the passengers round up is 2, and mod to double the crew to 2 and gain 3 more hp, use 2 or 3 advantage on cargo pods crafting upgrade to add 20 or 30 encumbrance, mod for +3 months of consumables

1 dedicated cargo bay for, 3 hp

personally I'd rule that you don't need the life support attachment (it just provides 10 days of consumables before mods),

class 4 hyperdrive modded twice to reduce rating to 2, costs 1 hp

sensors (not basic) unmodded, 1 hp

so you used 4+3+1+1 hp and got 5 back from the scout ship hull so at net 4 used and then the hwk-290 had 5 left over so it needed 9 total, using the base + silhouette formula, 6 would work for the base hp.

finals stats

sil 3, speed 4, handling 2, defense 1/1, armor 2, HTT 20, SST 18, 2 crew, 2 passengers, 70 or 80 enc, short range sensors, x2 hyperdrive, and 5 left over hp.

apart from the handling being +1 too good, HTT being 2 points too good and the encumbrance being either 5 too high or 5 too low, it's a perfect match, with only 7-8 total advantage, or 1 triumph and 4-5 advantage,

that seems pretty easy to me.

17 minutes ago, TheTubaTanker said:

oh shoot is the special that it gets a single 1 size up weapon system or that its systems can be one size up?

1 weapon, with a mod to get a second or to get the first at linked 1, but it doesn't matter because sil 5 can mount light turbolasers which is what the dp20 has.

Just now, EliasWindrider said:

1 weapon, with a mod to get a second or to get the first at linked 1, but it doesn't matter because sil 5 can mount light turbolasers which is what the dp20 has.

yeah but my "dp 20" has 10 oversized weapons lol I misunderstood

id give gunship access to a single weapons bank but id make weapons banks a size 6 thing. The gunship would be the exception obviously.

3 minutes ago, TheTubaTanker said:

yeah but my "dp 20" has 10 oversized weapons lol I misunderstood

id give gunship access to a single weapons bank but id make weapons banks a size 6 thing. The gunship would be the exception obviously.

technically a gunship hull could be put on a sil 1 speeder bike, so associating a weapons bank with the gunship hull doesn't work. it's better to leave the sil restriction exception (instead of normally sil 6+) for weapons bank with that with the ship of the line hull and restrict ship of the line to sil 5 or higher. if you put a ship of the line hull on a corvette, it's not going to have the stats of a CR90 (either a freighter or transport hull) or Marauder (carrier hull). A raider corvette could be built as a gunship hull on a patrol ship frame or maybe a race ship hull on a corvette frame

Okay so if I wanted to do dp20 id go ship of the line. If I want to cr90 I go gunship. One is about bigger gun and one is about more guns. maybe specify corvette as having access to the ship of the line. I'm concerned about players moving lower level ships up into the silhouette 5 and getting access to ship of the line with a frame that doesn't make sense. would that be a reasonable fix?

5 hours ago, TheTubaTanker said:

Okay so if I wanted to do dp20 id go ship of the line. If I want to cr90 I go gunship. One is about bigger gun and one is about more guns. maybe specify corvette as having access to the ship of the line. I'm concerned about players moving lower level ships up into the silhouette 5 and getting access to ship of the line with a frame that doesn't make sense. would that be a reasonable fix?

That would be a shuttle or freighter frame. The freighter frame I'm not worried about at all, because heavily armed/armored transports like the star galleon could be statted that way. For a shuttle, if someone was to use larger scope it would have 4 crew and 20 passengers, you could potentially do another x8 on the crew to make it 32. If they put 4 batteries on this thing it would have 20 weapons, with 12 crew left over to fill all the other roles, and assuming the 20 passengers were troops, that seems like a plausible pocket warship to me (it might be a way to stat a lancer, I'd have to check the stats) I think that you may be taking the terms "shuttle" and "ship of the line" too literally, they're just a collection of stats, that they're names are a common usecase for.

I think the check for the frame and hull is too easy. A shuttle frame is only hard but you can get the weapons banks by increasing your scope. You should make the hull daunting if you intend to keep the same silhouette requirements. I want to hand this to players who want to play an engineer but I don't want someone who is 1 hour and 45 min into my campaign, building a "ship of the line" (used in broad meaning) because it was easy enough for them to try. If you don't want to raise silhouette requirements or frame requirements then I would make it more difficult. I can just see a player going "we need a shuttle" followed by a "I can do what?", I'd like for there to be a more obvious reason why that isn't the case.

With a starting character I was able to design and build a shuttle with sil 5 speed 3 HT40 SS40 defense 6/3/3/3 and 6 armor handling -1 (this was with 2 black for testing reasons). I have a hyper drive, advanced sensors, a med bay, engineering access, escape pods, life supports systems, and highly automated. The other 10 HP went to weapons banks. My ship has 25 weapons (a lot more than dp20 lancer or CR90). because I'm size 5 I get light turbo lasers made available. When the checks were rolled 5 times the only one I failed more than once was the assembly which was daunting. Now would a character have the credits to pay for this? Probably not. We should make the difficulty dissuade the players from doing this as soon as they see the article. I like that larger scope is easy to get but before vsl was added it was kinda a bad thing mechanically. It made you easier to hit and harder for you to hit enemies. Now it gives you more HT and gives you access to the bigger hulls with strong mods. I recommend that the "larger scope" also upgrade the difficulty of further checks on the project to reflect the frame being pushed to its limits. It mixes red into the system so that we use the other half of the table and that's scary to builders. Additionally, we might consider making the "ship of the line" hull difficulty daunting. Does a team of engineers with ~100 xp care? No. Does a shipwright with ~100-200 xp care? No. Does a character that is not an engineer or very early engineers care? Heck yes they do. If my rolls were hard, normal with a red, daunting with a red and daunting with a red my starting characters would never try this. Also when a hight xp character goes to build home one or their own ISD you want it to be impressive. You want other non engineer character to sit with their jaws on the table as the engineer downgrades difficulties adds his 5 blue upgrades his checks and pools this massive dice pool. IF there are hard and easy checks its kinda a forgone conclusion when the 300xp engineer starts the project and that's no fun.