Basic scenario: A Flesh Ripper formation is facing terrain. Before revealing dial, it moves and collided with terrain. Can the Ripper then reveal its dial, use the first movement to leave terrain, and the right side dial’s move to then move away from the terrain?

Ripper says before revealing dial.

Activation steps start with revealing dial.

So... is that first, mandatory move before or during the Ripper activation? Ripper card doesn’t specifically call out during or before activation. I don’t see why it wouldn’t be before activation, but most likely someone else has studied the RRG far more than me and has insight

Weve been playing it as the movement is before activation, but weren’t sure.

You activate the unit, then reveal the dial. They're two disninct steps in the timing chart specifically for abilities like the Flesh Rippers or to spend boons/banes.

7 minutes ago, rebellightworks said:

You activate the unit, then reveal the dial. They're two disninct steps in the timing chart specifically for abilities like the Flesh Rippers or to spend boons/banes.

Where does it spell that out? I’m looking at RRG rules 5-5.1. It spells out (to me) that revealing the dial is the first step in activating.

Is is there something elsewhere in RRG or some sort of rules interaction that parses out those into separate steps?

Nothing that breaks out the steps specifically. The rule you want to reference is the "before" ruling in the Timing section.

This thread talks about it in the vien of inspiration tokens but it is the same arguement.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/263955-help-me-with-the-inspiration-boon-timing/

I agree that for the dial to be about to be revealed, the figure must be activated. So upon entering the terrain, their activation would stop. Otherwise the wording would have to be 'before activating...'

9 minutes ago, Corto said:

I agree that for the dial to be about to be revealed, the figure must be activated. So upon entering the terrain, their activation would stop. Otherwise the wording would have to be 'before activating...'

Yet step 5.1, the first step in activation is to reveal the dial. RRG reads as if “Activating” and “Revealing the dial” are one and the same. If they are, then your point about wording is irrelevant. I’m looking for something that specifically splits those up. Everyone seems to have split those up, but I don’t get why.

1 hour ago, Xquer said:

Nothing that breaks out the steps specifically. The rule you want to reference is the "before" ruling in the Timing section.

This thread talks about it in the vien of inspiration tokens but it is the same arguement.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/263955-help-me-with-the-inspiration-boon-timing/

Not really the same issue. I’m not asking if I can move my Rippers the one forward at any point in the turn before they activate. I’m not trying to dodge a charging unit by moving.

There is a thing called activation, and it's first step is revealing the dial. It is nowhere described as the same thing.

As part of your activation, you will start by revealing the dial. But wait! Before you actually do that you have a movement, as a very first step in your activation

By the time the trigger exists for Flesh Rippers, the unit has begun activating.

ALL those steps are how you execute activation, they are all part of the process.

The first thing you do is activate a unit, then reveal the dial. Otherwise why couldn't you just move your flesh rippers then activate another unit?

If we are being that open with it, literally any moment of the game prior to revealing their dial would be a valid trigger.

Oh, your spearmen are marching? Well, before I reveal my dial and before you move I'll go ahead and march.

Nah.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

By the time the trigger exists for Flesh Rippers, the unit has begun activating.

ALL those steps are how you execute activation, they are all part of the process.

The first thing you do is activate a unit, then reveal the dial. Otherwise why couldn't you just move your flesh rippers then activate another unit?

If we are being that open with it, literally any moment of the game prior to revealing their dial would be a valid trigger.

Oh, your spearmen are marching? Well, before I reveal my dial and before you move I'll go ahead and march.

Nah.

That’s not what I asked. A different summary:

My understanding of the rules is that RRG Rule 5 is describing activation and that step 5.1 is the start of the activation. In a more functional phrasing: When you reveal your dial, your activation starts.

Others are trying to say that there is a nebulous “activation start” that occurs before revealing the dial. I do not understand why people believe this and I want to know where and why they get this idea. If it is in the rules, I don’t see it but am willing to be shown it. So far people are just saying that it “is.” The only technical response I’ve now gotten has been about the definition of “before,” which isn’t relevant

My Flesh Ripper question hinges on this

31 minutes ago, Church14 said:

That’s not what I asked. A different summary:

My understanding of the rules is that RRG Rule 5 is describing activation and that step 5.1 is the start of the activation. In a more functional phrasing: When you reveal your dial, your activation starts.

Others are trying to say that there is a nebulous “activation start” that occurs before revealing the dial. I do not understand why people believe this and I want to know where and why they get this idea. If it is in the rules, I don’t see it but am willing to be shown it. So far people are just saying that it “is.” The only technical response I’ve now gotten has been about the definition of “before,” which isn’t relevant

My Flesh Ripper question hinges on this

In order to perform a "before" effect, you have to have already triggered the thing it is coming before.

Step 1 of activating a unit is to reveal it's command tool. If you haven't chosen a unit to activate, how do you know which command tool to reveal?

You activate a unit. Then you reveal it's command tool. Functionally, it cannot work any other way.

Look at attacking. Section 10 doesn't say you declare your attack. No one would argue that selecting your relevant attack profiles is how you determine you are attacking. It is merely the first step you take after you have declared that you are attacking.

22 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

In order to perform a "before" effect, you have to have already triggered the thing it is coming before.

Step 1 of activating a unit is to reveal it's command tool. If you haven't chosen a unit to activate, how do you know which command tool to reveal?

You activate a unit. Then you reveal it's command tool. Functionally, it cannot work any other way.

Look at attacking. Section 10 doesn't say you declare your attack. No one would argue that selecting your relevant attack profiles is how you determine you are attacking. It is merely the first step you take after you have declared that you are attacking.

No. You have to be about to trigger the event. So if you want to trigger the “before”effect, you have now functionally committed to whatever the trigger is. Flesh Rippers are about to reveal the dial, so they move. Now in order of operations, they must reveal that dial next. No moving on to a different unit right away. Your “before comes during” logic doesn’t make sense to me.

Yes, Step 1 of activating a unit is revealing its command tool. By that satement, my Flesh Rippers can do what I asked in original post. Your follow up statement is philosophically sound, but doesn’t apply here. Choosing a unit to activate is not activating that unit. Until you flip the dial, it isn’t activated.

You activate a unit by revealing its dial. I am still waiting for anyone to explain where between section 5 and section 5.1 exists section 5.05 “Step 0– Activate the unit.” Section 5 describes activation. Section 5.1 is the first step.

You reference section 10. Step 1 is choose an attack profile. Until you do that, you haven’t started attacking. You were just thinking about it or talking about it. This seems to validate my point.

Before this escalates, has anybody submitted a rules question?

Been a while since we had one of these particular threads.

Good times.

The RRG is more than clear enough on the subject. You activate a unit by performing the steps listed in Rule 5. In order to reveal a command tool, the activation must have started. In order for Flesh Rippers to move, the command tool must be about to be revealed, therefor activation has begun, and will immediately end if that move enters terrain.

We've been over this before. The card doesn't say "Before you activate", it says "Before you reveal your command tool".

55 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Been a while since we had one of these particular threads.

Good times.

The RRG is more than clear enough on the subject. You activate a unit by performing the steps listed in Rule 5. In order to reveal a command tool, the activation must have started. In order for Flesh Rippers to move, the command tool must be about to be revealed, therefor activation has begun, and will immediately end if that move enters terrain.

We've been over this before. The card doesn't say "Before you activate", it says "Before you reveal your command tool".

But where does it say activation must have been started BEFORE you reveal a command tool? This is the detail none of you are providing. I’m just getting vague “it must be so” with some fuzzy logic behind it. Anything proposed without evidence is dismissed without evidence.

I’m quoting the rule book. The rule book reads that revealing the dial is step 1. This to me reads as revealing the dial IS starting the activation. Section “5” is just a description of activation. Section “5.1” is the first step of activating, which is revealing the dial.

2 hours ago, Church14 said:

No. You have to be about to trigger the event. So if you want to trigger the “before”effect, you have now functionally committed to whatever the trigger is. Flesh Rippers are about to reveal the dial, so they move. Now in order of operations, they must reveal that dial next. No moving on to a different unit right away. Your “before comes during” logic doesn’t make sense to me.

Yes, Step 1 of activating a unit is revealing its command tool. By that satement, my Flesh Rippers can do what I asked in original post. Your follow up statement is philosophically sound, but doesn’t apply here. Choosing a unit to activate is not activating that unit. Until you flip the dial, it isn’t activated.

You activate a unit by revealing its dial. I am still waiting for anyone to explain where between section 5 and section 5.1 exists section 5.05 “Step 0– Activate the unit.” Section 5 describes activation. Section 5.1 is the first step.

You reference section 10. Step 1 is choose an attack profile. Until you do that, you haven’t started attacking. You were just thinking about it or talking about it. This seems to validate my point.

Where in the rules does it say revealing a dial activates a unit? You are making a leap in logic that is not present in the rules.

You are arguing semantics on how the before effect works. When it is my turn and I have multiple units to activate at the given initiative, I am "about to activate" 2 different units. You have to commit before you trigger any before ability. In general, this functionally works the same as you saying that doing the before effect is the committal, but that isn't actually the case. If your opponent had a "before" effect that could trigger when you activate your flesh rippers, you would have to declare the unit is activating before resolving your before effect so that both effects can be resolved in the proper order.

You can't be on step 1 of something unless you have actually committed to and declared that you are doing said thing.

I must be bad at. ommunication. I am not in any way challenging the current common understanding of “before.” I am challenging the (to me) odd belief that somehow activating a unit and revealing a dial are two different things.

TL:DR - I accept that the RRG cannot define everything, so Flesh Rippers can move into terrain before they activate OR I accept that the RRG must be literally interpreted, so Flesh Rippers can't complete their compulsory march as there is no legal trigger for it.

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Here's the thing, no ruleset survives detailed inspection. If you look for an edge case scenario, you'll likely find one. Every possible interaction cannot be covered in a ruleset.

Here's my logic - #showyourwork

83.7 A “before” event occurs immediately before the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

5 When a player activates one of his units, he resolves the following steps in order:

5.1 Step 1—Reveal Command Tool: The player reveals his unit’s command tool by tipping it over so the icons on the dial are faceup on the play area.

81.2 (bullet 2) • After the unit resolves all effects of entering the terrain, its activation immediately ends. If it had a bonus action or other game effects to perform, these are canceled.

(Flesh Rippers Card) Before you reveal your command tool, you must perform a speed-1 {March}.

Flesh Rippers state that "before" you reveal your command tool, when we reference "before" it states that "before" occurs immediately before the specified event. Well, that mean directly before you reveal the command tool. Since revealing your command tool is Step 1 in activation, but before you actually activate the unit, it happens then. This MECHANIC is all clear, covered in the RRG, etc. What is not clear is when does this ability TRIGGER. You cannot trigger this occurrence unless you've nominated a unit to activate, but nomination of a unit to activate is nowhere to be found in the RRG. The closest is in the Initiative section, but that isn't very applicable to this at all, it's not granular enough. So, we, the players , have created a "ghost step" which is when you nominate a unit, but haven't activated it yet. Yes, this doesn't occur anywhere in the RRG, but if we strictly interpret the RRG, then Flesh Rippers can never resolve their 1-march, and you could never spend Inspiration tokens, since both of these occur in an timing that isn't clearly defined.

Essentially what i'm saying is: Stop trying to break the ruleset. I believe your original post was not this intention, but this thread is heading there quickly. You keep demanding proof of a step that exists between 5 and 5.1, which doesn't exist. Mostly because 5 isn't a step, it's a number reference.

Quote

But where does it say activation must have been started BEFORE you reveal a command tool? This is the detail none of you are providing. I’m just getting vague “it must be so” with some fuzzy logic behind it. Anything proposed without evidence is dismissed without evidence.

In response to the vein of responses you've been handing out, I declare my response as thus: The timing is illegal (because it's not clearly spelled out in the RRG) and therefore Flesh Rippers can't complete their compulsory march, as well as not being able to spend inspiration tokens, since they both occur in the same "step". I've shown my work, made my case, and will now go back to playing the game with Flesh Rippers moving and being able to spend Inspiration tokens because I didn't try to "lawyer" the ruleset by looking for every interaction to be explicitly detailed out for me. I'll also go ahead and email this out to FFG so that it can be "fixed" in the next FAQ.

Adding this as you posted it during my typing this out.

Quote

I must be bad at. ommunication. I am not in any way challenging the current common understanding of “before.” I am challenging the (to me) odd belief that somehow activating a unit and revealing a dial are two different things.

Yep, i'd agree you're bad at. ommunication. Communication however, you're not awful at. It just seems that you enjoy beating this particular horse? I'm not trying to insult or poke fun at you, I just don't understand why you've chosen this to be fixated on. You're challenging the belief that activating a unit and revealing a dial are two different things. Here's the thing, if they're not, then that whole chunk of the game mechanically falls apart. Yes, it's not spelled out in the RRG, and that's why we, the players , have created them as two separate entities.

54 minutes ago, oda204 said:

TL:DR - I accept that the RRG cannot define everything, so Flesh Rippers can move into terrain before they activate OR I accept that the RRG must be literally interpreted, so Flesh Rippers can't complete their compulsory march as there is no legal trigger for it.

--------------

Here's the thing, no ruleset survives detailed inspection. If you look for an edge case scenario, you'll likely find one. Every possible interaction cannot be covered in a ruleset.

Here's my logic - #showyourwork

83.7 A “before” event occurs immediately before the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

5 When a player activates one of his units, he resolves the following steps in order:

5.1 Step 1—Reveal Command Tool: The player reveals his unit’s command tool by tipping it over so the icons on the dial are faceup on the play area.

81.2 (bullet 2) • After the unit resolves all effects of entering the terrain, its activation immediately ends. If it had a bonus action or other game effects to perform, these are canceled.

(Flesh Rippers Card) Before you reveal your command tool, you must perform a speed-1 {March}.

Flesh Rippers state that "before" you reveal your command tool, when we reference "before" it states that "before" occurs immediately before the specified event. Well, that mean directly before you reveal the command tool. Since revealing your command tool is Step 1 in activation, but before you actually activate the unit, it happens then. This MECHANIC is all clear, covered in the RRG, etc. What is not clear is when does this ability TRIGGER. You cannot trigger this occurrence unless you've nominated a unit to activate, but nomination of a unit to activate is nowhere to be found in the RRG. The closest is in the Initiative section, but that isn't very applicable to this at all, it's not granular enough. So, we, the players , have created a "ghost step" which is when you nominate a unit, but haven't activated it yet. Yes, this doesn't occur anywhere in the RRG, but if we strictly interpret the RRG, then Flesh Rippers can never resolve their 1-march, and you could never spend Inspiration tokens, since both of these occur in an timing that isn't clearly defined.

Essentially what i'm saying is: Stop trying to break the ruleset. I believe your original post was not this intention, but this thread is heading there quickly. You keep demanding proof of a step that exists between 5 and 5.1, which doesn't exist. Mostly because 5 isn't a step, it's a number reference.

In response to the vein of responses you've been handing out, I declare my response as thus: The timing is illegal (because it's not clearly spelled out in the RRG) and therefore Flesh Rippers can't complete their compulsory march, as well as not being able to spend inspiration tokens, since they both occur in the same "step". I've shown my work, made my case, and will now go back to playing the game with Flesh Rippers moving and being able to spend Inspiration tokens because I didn't try to "lawyer" the ruleset by looking for every interaction to be explicitly detailed out for me. I'll also go ahead and email this out to FFG so that it can be "fixed" in the next FAQ.

Adding this as you posted it during my typing this out.

Yep, i'd agree you're bad at. ommunication. Communication however, you're not awful at. It just seems that you enjoy beating this particular horse? I'm not trying to insult or poke fun at you, I just don't understand why you've chosen this to be fixated on. You're challenging the belief that activating a unit and revealing a dial are two different things. Here's the thing, if they're not, then that whole chunk of the game mechanically falls apart. Yes, it's not spelled out in the RRG, and that's why we, the players , have created them as two separate entities.

In particular, I run a lot of Flesh Rippers. I have used this mechanic to have an even greater edge in getting them where they want. I’m worried that I’m abusing game mechanics. So I posed the question here. Since asking, the responses largely amount to “because we say so, not because it is written.” That’s a quick way to make me dig harder. Now the lack so far of an actual rules based justification of it not working has made me think it actually does work that way. I don’t mean to piss people off or beat a dead horse, but “just because” doesn’t cut it.

I have read your response a few times and I still don’t follow. I’ll let it rest tonight and read your post tomorrow a few times. But essentially, I don’t see the rules gap. Flipping/revealing the dial is activating the unit (step 1 if it at least) per Rule 5.1. This “community made” phantom phase now creates a sort of step 0.5 to conceptualists order of operations that would insert into a “Rule 5.05” for lack of way to put it. The issue arises from a made up phase. So I’m being told something doesn’t work because of a nonexistent step in activation.

I dont get get why people wouldnt treat revealing the dial as activating. That’s how the rules seem to spell it out. You have committed to the act of revealing the dial, so then you trigger everything “before” revealing the dial. You cannot go back and order of operation is preserved. No new phantom phases or rules issues. Though I’ve been awake for a long time now. I’ll revisit it once I’ve slept and see if anything clears up

does anything in the game say “before activating?” Or just before revealing your dial?

It's not because we say so, it's because it's logical. You want written in the rules? Look at chapter 5: it does start with 5.1 but actually there is a big 'chapter 5' before that. That's what we mean. In all logic, for a 5.1 to exist they must be part of a bigger thing that logically has started for the first step to happen. Consider 'before revealing' as that little paragraph just before 5.1

Now this is not written verbatim but neither is the fact that the activation and the first step of the activation are the same with precisely the same timing. But one is logical and the other is not, apply Occam's razor

When this was first encountered in a game I agreed it seemed legal, but looking at activation order I think I have to agree with the masses.

The rippers free move is a pocket phase which requires the unit to be activated in order to execute. Under normal circumstances a unit 'activates' by revealing its command, unless a caveat is given to alter this. In this case, it's the rippers free movement, which is somewhere in the unwritten space between choosing which unit to activate and revealing the dial.

If the wording on the rippers was 'before you activate' the move would work, but it says before you reveal your dial, and you can't reveal a dial if you havn't activated, and if you havn't activated to reveal your dial, than how can you interact with the unit?

5 Activation "Units are activated during the Activation Phase. When a player activates one of his units, he resolves the following steps in order:"

Yes, revealing a command tool is the first of these steps, but it is not equal to activating any more than performing a bonus action because all 3 steps are part of the same packaged event that triggers on "when you activate."

83.5 " A "when" effect occurs at the moment that a specified event occurs and cannot occur again during that instance of the event."

83.7 "A "before" event occurs immediately before the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event."

83.8 "An "after" event occurs immediately after the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the effect.

To be honest, these timing rules are garbage because they are tautological. "After" is defined as being after an event without ever defining the word after. Based on my experience with other FFG games, I do interpret these differently than as written. Everything below is how I think the rules should be interpreted, but do not contribute to my argument about Flesh Rippers' activation.

I see these timing effects in light of SWLCG lingo, which had very strict timing rules.

A when effect is like an interrupt. "An interrupt effect is considered to be resolved before the triggering condition is allowed to conplete," but it requires the triggering condition to be inotiated.

An after effect is like a reaction. "Unlike interrupts, which resolve before the triggering condition is completed, reactions are played after the effects of the triggering condition have been resolved."

Before effects are like actions. In SWLCG, there were many action windows that took place before framework events. In Runewars, each step of activation would have been a framework event. Because we don't have a timing framework, and because of the nature of timing statements, it is difficult to defend one position over another. We are basically now ruling on intent, and I would say that allowing Flesh Rippers to enter and exit terrain in the same turn is against the intent of the rules and seems to be abusing the sloppy timing rules. Just my opinion.

I’m fine playing it as it doesn’t work as a sort of RAI, but I still don’t buy anything presented here. Activation can be interpreted as a window, but the beginning of that is defined by revealing a dial. Not by choosing to go through that window.

I’m also fine with it as a balance concern. It doesn’t stop me from going through terrain quicker than any other unit, but it does stop me from feeding multiple Ripper units through one piece of terrain in a turn. It is also circumstances that I do not need to force to happen, so there is that

After looking at a few other cards, I am more convinvced that revealing/revealed a dial is supposed to be the nomenclature for “activating/activated.” One example: Why wouldn’t visored helms say “when defending, it you have not activated...?” That’s part of why I asked about any card anywhere in the game referencing when a unit activated. That would be (to me) a good indicator that dial reveal and activation are not the same trigger. I can’t think of any, but I could have certainly missed one

But I just can't see them being the same thing. Sure, they essentially happen at the same time, but activating includes revealing the command tool, performing actions, and performing bonus actions. Revealing a comman tool is PART OF activating, so activating cannot be equal to revealing a command tool.

Why reference command tools being revealed instead of whether a unit has activated? Because a revealed command tool is a visual state that documents whether a unit has activated or not. The only uncertainty is during a unit's activation because it has not completed its activation yet, eveb though the command tool is revealed.

Viscera Goblet references "after your activation" as a timing reference, for what it's worth.