15 minutes ago, TheSapient said:

Honestly, this is what kept getting me when thinking about reflect. But the whole point of this project was to make a ton of options available that people could pick and choose from, and Block really isn't a good replacement. My feeling is that Reflect come back in with some additional phrasing like "when wielding an appropriate defense" and leave it to the table to figure out what that means.

Yeah that is probably a better way to handle it

4 hours ago, ESP77 said:

@dresdinseven . So I've been thinking alot about these talents. I want to make a more general version that encompasses all of these ala Knack for it and how it rolls up so many sw talents together.

What do you think of something like,

Specialist

Passive

Ranked: Yes

With GM approval choose a specific subskill (Melee: Sword; Mechanics: Auto). When making checks that involve your chosen specialty you upgrade the skill check once. All other checks with this skill are downgraded once. Each rank in this talent allows you to choose a new specialty.

The downgrading part seems overly punishing, You get an upgrade occasionally but suck the rest of the time. I don’t think it would be purchased, especially at the tier three or higher levels. I would probably just remove that effect.

If you really want a positive/negative talent then it would be better to do something like:

Choose a Specialisation within a Skill, gain an upgrade every time it is relevant. Also choose a skill, that skill now gains a setback on every check. Each rank choose a new Specialisation and new skill with a flaw

It should represent a constant focus on one speciality limiting your broader life experience. By the time you get to rank 5 you will be triggering one of those setbacks regularly but you’re not impacting your supposed good skill.

Personaly I don’t really like it, but I can see the appeal.

Just leave out the downgrading part. I have a feeling choosing one flawed spec for a setback would just lead to some pretty creative niche finding on the player side effectively never coming up anyway.

3 hours ago, siabrac said:

Just leave out the downgrading part. I have a feeling choosing one flawed spec for a setback would just lead to some pretty creative niche finding on the player side effectively never coming up anyway.

So no downgrade. What tier do you think? Should it exclude magic and combat skills to prevent abuse?

It' a specialization of a skill so I assume the character needs at least one rank in that skill. Also you can only take it once per skill or it wouldn't be much of a specialization anymore.

If it's to cheap it will be a go to instead of actually spending XP on skills, if it's too expensive it won't matter. Does it have to be ranked?

I'd say Tier 2, just +1 Ability for the chosen specialization, GM approval. But I still don't like it and I don't think I would add it to my campaing. Whatever Tieryou choose to put it in it will always only be balanced for either low ranked skills (getting to cheap for higher ones) or high ranked skills (meaning too expensive over all and kind of against the specialization part of it considering the character will already be pretty good with the skill in general).

1 hour ago, siabrac said:

It' a specialization of a skill so I assume the character needs at least one rank in that skill. Also you can only take it once per skill or it wouldn't be much of a specialization anymore.

If it's to cheap it will be a go to instead of actually spending XP on skills, if it's too expensive it won't matter. Does it have to be ranked?

I'd say Tier 2, just +1 Ability for the chosen specialization, GM approval. But I still don't like it and I don't think I would add it to my campaing. Whatever Tieryou choose to put it in it will always only be balanced for either low ranked skills (getting to cheap for higher ones) or high ranked skills (meaning too expensive over all and kind of against the specialization part of it considering the character will already be pretty good with the skill in general).

I agree with this.

Slow Dance allows characters to use Agility for Melee (like your Finesse talent) but at the cost of a Maneuver. Improved Slow Dance is the same effect plus Aim . I plan to test it in an Android: Genesys game where Melee is rare.

Slow Dance
Tier: 2
Activation: Active (Maneuver)
Ranked: No

Your character may use this talent to treat Agility as the associated characteristic for the next Melee Combat Skill check she makes.

Improved Slow Dance
Tier: 3
Activation: Active (Maneuver)
Ranked: No

Your character may use this talent to treat Agility as the associated characteristic for the next Melee Combat Skill check she makes. In addition, gain ■■ on that check.

16 hours ago, Dragonshadow said:

Quick finesse question: it uses agility for brawn in light melee checks, but does it still use brawn for calculating base damage?

After some discussion, we agreed that brawn is used for base damage, and that the text of the talent doesn't need to change.

10 hours ago, ESP77 said:

@dresdinseven . So I've been thinking alot about these talents. I want to make a more general version that encompasses all of these ala Knack for it and how it rolls up so many sw talents together.

What do you think of something like,

Specialist

Passive

Ranked: Yes

With GM approval choose a specific subskill (Melee: Sword; Mechanics: Auto). When making checks that involve your chosen specialty you upgrade the skill check once. All other checks with this skill are downgraded once. Each rank in this talent allows you to choose a new specialty.

An interesting take on the idea, and it does have much more utility as a generic talent. My biggest concern is downgrading a skill, which is (as far as I know) the only time when taking a talent results in your abilities becoming permanently worse in some way. I would drop that clause completely. Also, I'd have it exclude combat skills, since those are already covered extensively by booster talents (imagine, for example choosing "Pistols" for Ranged Light) and there's a precedence with "choose a non-combat skill to get a boost" talents.

Additionally, this talent goes wide but not deep. A small dip that can be done multiple times, as opposed to the one "signature side-specialty" that can go deep. An example of this would be like a get-a-way driver, who should be a master car mechanic but wouldn't know how to disable a bomb or repair a hyperdrive. While a little clunky, the reasoning behind raising the skill level up to a cap was to prevent it from being added on to a maxed out skill ranking (so no one could take it five times plus the five ranks they already have) while mechanically representing "as good as a generalist at X level, but only in Y specialty".

Both Specialist and Educated were meant to address how much of a "do/know literally anything" skills that are Mechanics and Knowledge, and to give a bit more granularity so that there's more character choices between "Make Scotty from Star Trek or have someone who struggles with which way to screw in a light bulb". It also allows XP streamlining (similar to the "add X as career skill" talents) by allowing the option of purchasing those expensive higher level skill slots but only for things which relate to their character concept. For Career Skills the optimal spread is [3 Skill:2 Talents] and for Non-Career Skills the optimal spread is [2 Skill:3 Talent].

I would say keep the talent you wrote as "Knack" (which represents that edge a person has with their favored skills, and should be a Level 2 Talent) and refine the talent I wrote as "Specialist". Here is my rewrite:

Quote

Talent: Specialist

• Tier:1
• Activation: Passive
• Ranked: Yes
• Prerequisites: None
• Description: Choose one specific non-combat skill and associated sub-skill, as approved by the GM. When making a skill check related to this sub-skill treat the skill rating as 1 higher per rank of Specialist, up to a maximum total rating of 5.

Suggested Mechanics sub-skills: Computer Hardware, Cybernetics, Demolitions, Security and Surveillance Systems, Vehicle [Pilot, Drive, or Operate]

Suggested Knowledge sub-skills: History, Natural Sciences, Social Sciences, High Society, Underworld, Region (specify)

I would recommend putting in the suggestions as it gives some guidance on the 'scope' of the talent, so that it can be viewed in terms of professions instead of writing something overly broad like "repairing stuff lol" or too specific like "16th Century French Renaissance Art".

My suggestion for Knack

Quote

Talent: Knack

• Tier:2
• Activation: Passive
• Ranked: Yes
• Prerequisites: None
• Description: Choose one specific non-combat skill and associated specialty, as approved by the GM. When making a skill check related to this specific sub-skill upgrade the skill check once. Each rank in this talent allows you to choose a new specialty.

Example sub-skills: Athletics:Swimming, Coordination:Dancing, Driving:Muscle Cars, Medicine:Lab Work, Skulduggery:Forgery, ect.

The difference between "suggested/example" and "sub-skill/specialty" is intentional to give a little direction to the player.

I know I'm probably being obsessive but I think these talents are ones that need a bit of structure to prevent them from being total munchkin talents.

1 hour ago, TheSapient said:

After some discussion, we agreed that brawn is used for base damage, and that the text of the talent doesn't need to change.

For my own house rules, I'm torn between using the two differentiated melee skills (light and heavy) or keeping it as a single skill and adding a "Precise" property to a subset of melee weapons which will be the only ones usable with Finesse. Melee won't be the goto combat skill for my Starfinder conversion, so having separate melee skills might be too much. OTOH, the Dark Heresy conversion sure makes a good case for it...

Regardless, I will add a Tier 4 talent called "Surgical Precision" that uses "Finesse" as a prerequisite and allows an attacker to use Agility instead of Brawn for base damage. It doesn't take much pressure to slice an artery, and even the hardest armor has weak points.

15 minutes ago, Dragonshadow said:

For my own house rules, I'm torn between using the two differentiated melee skills (light and heavy) or keeping it as a single skill and adding a "Precise" property to a subset of melee weapons which will be the only ones usable with Finesse. Melee won't be the goto combat skill for my Starfinder conversion, so having separate melee skills might be too much. OTOH, the Dark Heresy conversion sure makes a good case for it...

Regardless, I will add a Tier 4 talent called "Surgical Precision" that uses "Finesse" as a prerequisite and allows an attacker to use Agility instead of Brawn for base damage. It doesn't take much pressure to slice an artery, and even the hardest armor has weak points.

Write up Surgical Precision as Finesse (Improved) for consideration to be included in the next release of this list! Please.

I have a complaint about the Signature Vehicle Talents. Most of them are Tier 4, which is no fun for today's Rigger on the go. I'd love your tiers on this, as I never have used any of them.

Signature Vehicle
Tier: 2
Activation: Passive
Ranked: Yes
Choose one starship or vehicle with a silhouette of 3 or lower that your character owns. This vehicle is your character's "Signature Vehicle." Upgrade the ability of all Mechanics checks made to work on the vehicle once. If the vehicle ever lost or destroyed, the character may apply Signature Vehicle to a new vehicle that meets the requirements. Silhouette of the "Signature Vehicle" increase by 1 for each additional rank.

Bolstered Armor
Tier: 4
Activation: Passive
Ranked: Yes
Your character must have purchased the Signature Vehicle talent to benefit from this talent. Increase the armor value of Signature Vehicle by 1 per rank of Bolstered Armor.

Custom Loadout
Tier: 4
Activation: Passive
Ranked: No
Your character must have purchased the Signature Vehicle talent to benefit from this talent. May add 2 additional hard points to Signature Vehicles.

Customized Cooling Unit
Tier: 4
Activation: Passive
Ranked: Yes
Your character must have purchased the Signature Vehicle talent to benefit from this talent. Increase the system strain threshold of Signature Vehicle by 2 per rank of Customized Cooling Unit.

Fancy Paint Job
Tier: 4
Activation: Passive
Ranked: No
Your character must have purchased the Signature Vehicle talent to benefit from this talent. Upgrade all Charm, Deception, and Negotiation checks made in the presence of Signature Vehicle once.

Fortified Structure
Tier: 4
Activation: Passive
Ranked: Yes
Your character must have purchased the Signature Vehicle talent to benefit from this talent. Increase the hull trauma threshold of Signature Vehicle by 1 per rank of Fortified Structure.

Not Today
Tier: 4
Activation: Active (Incidental)
Ranked: No
Your character must have purchased the Signature Vehicle talent to benefit from this talent. Once per session, spend a Story Point to save Signature Vehicle from destruction.

Overstocked Ammo
Tier: 4
Activation: Passive
Ranked: Yes
Your character must have purchased the Signature Vehicle talent to benefit from this talent. Increase the value of the Limited Ammo quality of any weapons mounted on Signature Vehicle by 1 per rank of Overstocked Ammo.

Tuned Maneuvering Thrusters
Tier: 4
Activation: Passive
Ranked: Yes
Your character must have purchased the Signature Vehicle talent to benefit from this talent. Increase the handling of Signature Vehicle by 1 per rank of Tuned Maneuvering Thrusters.

Just cut and paste this part with your tiers!

Signature Vehicle

Bolstered Armor

Custom Loadout

Customized Cooling Unit

Fancy Paint Job

Fortified Structure

Not Today

Overstocked Ammo

Tuned Maneuvering Thrusters

Signature Vehicle - Tier 1.

Bolstered Armor - Tier 3 or maybe 4

Custom Loadout - Tier 5. Very valuable. However, Genesys doesn't actually use HP on vehicles at this time.

Customized Cooling Unit - Tier 3

Fancy Paint Job - Tier 2

Fortified Structure - Tier 3

Not Today - tier 4

Overstocked Ammo - Tier 2

Tuned Maneuvering Thrusters - tier 3

You're missing Larger Project (probably tier 3) and Reinforced Frame I think it is, which is probably tier 4.

Larger project has been absorbed by Signature Vehicle, which is now ranked and at Tier 2.

Reinforced Frame was dumped because Massive is not in the Genesys rules set.

Larger project could be brought back though, making Sig Vehicle Tier 1, which makes room for tier two SV upgrade talents.

To be fair, neither is vehicle customization, which these talents really cater too the most.

You could always just explicitly state its function "Attacks against this vehicle increase their critical rating by 1"

30 minutes ago, Swordbreaker said:

To be fair, neither is vehicle customization, which these talents really cater too the most.

29 minutes ago, saethone said:

You could always just explicitly state its function "Attacks against this vehicle increase their critical rating by 1"

Fair enough. We'll look at putting Reinforced Frame back in with Massive replaced by descriptive text. What about Custom Loadout. GCRB doesn't have hard points for vehicles, but one would presume any game where people would want to mount weapons on vehicles would have a GM creating weapons that use hard points.

1 hour ago, TheSapient said:

Write up Surgical Precision as Finesse (Improved) for consideration to be included in the next release of this list! Please.

Finesse (Improved)
Tier: 4
Activation: Passive
Ranked: No

Your character must have purchased the Finesse talent to benefit from this talent . Because you can rapidly strike with surgical precision, use Agility instead of Brawn for determining base damage for Brawl and Melee(Light) attacks.

Feelings on this? The cover mechanic in Genesys is weak, as it does not stack with armor.

Duck - Tier 1 - Ranked - Active OOT Incidental

When your character suffers a hit from a Ranged combat check, after damage is calculated but before soak is applied, your character may suffer 3 strain to use this talent to reduce the damage of the hit by two plus their ranks in Duck. This talent can only be used once per hit, and your character must be under the effects of a Take Cover maneuver.

Reducing damage is kind of against the grain of defense, which is avoiding the attack all together. I've gone back and forth on whether or not it should stack too - in this game, for example "heavy robes" grant one defense on the premise that the billowing of the robe makes it difficult to determine where the person underneath it is, and this isn't really improved upon by the person standing behind a tree. But in sci-fi, its often an energy shield or something, which would still help protect you if your attacker manages to shoot around the tree.

I think stacking defense just needs to be a GM on the fly decision based on circumstances

Tumble seems to be a tad powerful for a tier 1, it breaks a major component of the game for very little cost. Either it should require a Story Point to be flipped or it should be at least Tier 3.

Engaging and disengaging is a very important mechanic that is very rarely broken, and only by much higher tier talents in the Star Wars system.

There could be a new talent added called Basic Militia Training, a Medieval version of Basic Military Training. Simply replacing Ranged(Heavy) with Melee (Heavy) to show training in polearms, or just add a sentence to the end of military training

Is the idea of Familiar that you can benefit from more than 1 implement?

im slowly getting through the list!

11 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

There could be a new talent added called Basic Militia Training, a Medieval version of Basic Military Training. Simply replacing Ranged(Heavy) with Melee (Heavy) to show training in polearms, or just add a sentence to the end of military training

How about

Militia Training - Tier 2 - Ranked: No -Activation Passive

Discipline, Melee (Heavy), and Survival are now career skills for your character.

2 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Is the idea of Familiar that you can benefit from more than 1 implement?

im slowly getting through the list!

Free up your hand, but also as a basis for the improved and supreme version. And flavor.