On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 7:40 AM, penpenpen said:

And what about the one wielding the power (let¨s call them the "Master" for now)? A responsible, compassionate master would surely feel some kind of responsibility towards the newly awakened force user, and whatever actions they may take using their newfound power. Some kind of obligation there could certainly be in it's place. A darker counterpart of such an obligation (for a more... passionate master) isn't quite as obvious, but as the power gives no direct benefit of to the master, what would be the motivation for a selfish person to master such a selfless power? The most likely answer would be the create a pawn (or "apprentice" if you like) to serve them. As this would be a considerable investment in time and effort, it's not unreasonable to apply some kind of obligation pertaining to maintaining control over such an investment.

I'm being a bit vague here, but since obligations key heavily into characterization aspect of role playing it's tricky and sometimes even counter productive to nail down exact rules mechanics for them. I hope the gist of my points are clear enough.

I'm glad you like it . Something that appears may have been missed is in my reworking of the power I made it so you can only grant Force rating when you don't use Dark Side pips; you can open someone to a new way of perceiving and interacting with the world only if you do it gently and they want it; if you're too forceful or simply want to inflict harm on the target, all you do is leave them emotionally crippled by their past wrongdoing (i.e. Atonement Obligation). I also changed it so the difficulty of the Vigilance check and the amount of Obligation granted is based on the Force rating the power granted, so you need more Strength upgrades to do it the best. I'm also considering moving another one of the Strength upgrades to the left-hand side of the tree, so that you have to buy more of the full tree to get the best result from the Mastery.

And since you're adding your voice to the multitudes that are saying that an Obligation cost to the Master should be considered, I will consider it. The Mastery is already fairly complex and I don't want to make it too complicated, but I'll see if I can make it work.

And I see your point about the Sith . But that's sort of the thing, isn't it? The whole point of the Sith philosophy is that having the Force makes them special. They're elitists. They wouldn't be able to really use this power and be in keeping with their mindset. So buying into this power is a tacit way of saying you don't agree with the Sith philosophy, because the way the power is used runs entirely counter to it. At least, in my mind it does. I think the mechanics help express that, too, but I'm certain I've got creator's glasses on .

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 0:42 PM, Noahjam325 said:

The big reason i don't consider the cost of Obligation and Wounds/Strain to be equitable is because Wounds/Strain are very firmly defined and understand in the rules. Obligation is much more... open to interpretation. It requires more work on the part of both the GM and player to interpret or "put a value on" so to speak, unlike Wounds/Strain.

Otherwise i really like the idea behind the force power. I'm currently considering giving this a try with my players. We're currently just doing very casual episodic adventures every week. So I'm currently using this time to practice and try all my whacky ideas. I might be able to convince our force user to give this a try. I would probably tweak the lore around it to better suit our setting though.

That a good point. I might argue that a high-level, more esoteric power is justified in inflicting more esoteric "wounds," but since this is a game we do need to ensure that it can be played. As I said above, I'll look into finding a way to alter it. Do you think inflicting a mental "Critical Injury" would work better? Something that tracks with rules that are already more clearly defined, just with some slight variations?

And I'd really appreciate it if you could give it a shot! If you do, let me know how it goes .

3 hours ago, ASCI Blue said:

Given how border irrelevant conflict is in this system, use the DS pips. Use it a couple times, gain a little conflict, go pet some puppies or give a homeless person food, you're good to go.

True, Conflict doesn't really hurt too much if you're only dipping into it a little. I don't actually use the Conflict rules, which is why I didn't write this to interact with them. I use Marcy's Morality system, which I'm sure she would have no trouble explaining if she ever stops by . But as I mentioned, you can no longer grant a Force rating if you use some Dark Side pips, meaning you need to be able to generate at least 4 light side pips with some regularity (and have 2 Destiny Points available) to be able to use that aspect.

4 hours ago, Absol197 said:

I'm glad you like it . Something that appears may have been missed is in my reworking of the power I made it so you can only grant Force rating when you don't use Dark Side pips; you can open someone to a new way of perceiving and interacting with the world only if you do it gently and they want it; if you're too forceful or simply want to inflict harm on the target, all you do is leave them emotionally crippled by their past wrongdoing (i.e. Atonement Obligation). I also changed it so the difficulty of the Vigilance check and the amount of Obligation granted is based on the Force rating the power granted, so you need more Strength upgrades to do it the best. I'm also considering moving another one of the Strength upgrades to the left-hand side of the tree, so that you have to buy more of the full tree to get the best result from the Mastery.

Sorry, I did miss that despite waiting to post until I thought I had taken the time to read it thoroughly. Apparently sleep deprivation does not improve my attention span. Who knew?

4 hours ago, Absol197 said:

And since you're adding your voice to the multitudes that are saying that an Obligation cost to the Master should be considered, I will consider it. The Mastery is already fairly complex and I don't want to make it too complicated, but I'll see if I can make it work.

I probably wouldn't bother nailing down exact mechanics for it, rather making it a set of guidelines and GM tips, or at least making it clear that any mechanics pertaining obligation should be applied flexibly to fit the narrative and the characters involved. Darksiders aside, not every character's reaction to such a situation would be atonement or the ones I suggested, and it might be more useful to encourage improvising an obligation and simply suggesting a few to get people started? Having your eyes opened to the force should be a character defining moment and it might get cheapened by being forced into a mold. That said, the mechanics for calculating the magnitude of the obligation looks about right.

5 hours ago, Absol197 said:

And I see your point about the Sith . But that's sort of the thing, isn't it? The whole point of the Sith philosophy is that having the Force makes them special. They're elitists. They wouldn't be able to really use this power and be in keeping with their mindset. So buying into this power is a tacit way of saying you don't agree with the Sith philosophy, because the way the power is used runs entirely counter to it. At least, in my mind it does. I think the mechanics help express that, too, but I'm certain I've got creator's glasses on .

That is definitely a valid interpretation of the Sith mindset. But not all sith are traditionalists and not all darksiders are sith. And people empowered by this power can still be considered "fake" or artificial force users, only good for cannon fodder, if you want to keep the elitism going. I get that your going for a force power to go with a fairly specific mindset (Kemna's, I assume), but it might be worth some minor tweaks to open it up for those with other viewpoints ?

22 hours ago, Absol197 said:

True, Conflict doesn't really hurt too much if you're only dipping into it a little. I don't actually use the Conflict rules, which is why I didn't write this to interact with them. I use Marcy's Morality system, which I'm sure she would have no trouble explaining if she ever stops by . But as I mentioned, you can no longer grant a Force rating if you use some Dark Side pips, meaning you need to be able to generate at least 4 light side pips with some regularity (and have 2 Destiny Points available) to be able to use that aspect.

I missed that part, now this makes more sense.

On 11/25/2017 at 7:59 PM, penpenpen said:

Sorry, I did miss that despite waiting to post until I thought I had taken the time to read it thoroughly. Apparently sleep deprivation does not improve my attention span. Who knew?

I probably wouldn't bother nailing down exact mechanics for it, rather making it a set of guidelines and GM tips, or at least making it clear that any mechanics pertaining obligation should be applied flexibly to fit the narrative and the characters involved. Darksiders aside, not every character's reaction to such a situation would be atonement or the ones I suggested, and it might be more useful to encourage improvising an obligation and simply suggesting a few to get people started? Having your eyes opened to the force should be a character defining moment and it might get cheapened by being forced into a mold. That said, the mechanics for calculating the magnitude of the obligation looks about right.

That is definitely a valid interpretation of the Sith mindset. But not all sith are traditionalists and not all darksiders are sith. And people empowered by this power can still be considered "fake" or artificial force users, only good for cannon fodder, if you want to keep the elitism going. I get that your going for a force power to go with a fairly specific mindset (Kemna's, I assume), but it might be worth some minor tweaks to open it up for those with other viewpoints ?

Using the Heal Mastery on this . I'm working on a replacement or rework for the Obligation mechanic, I'm going to post it in a bit.

Hi All! I'm re-visiting this power, for no other reason that I've allowed myself to become re-obsessed with Kemna due to her story possibly continuing soon, so I was thinking about it .

I've read through this again, and I was thinking that the XP costs were too high. The total power cost using the previous version was 210 xp, which is the same as Bind and 5 less than Protect/Unleash. Which, you might think (entirely fairly), "Yeah, this is, in-universe, an incredibly rare and potent ability. It should be expensive!"

Which is true. But it's also a game mechanic, and in-game, (ignoring the Mastery, which is something else) there are only three main ways to use this power:

1) As a narrative ability. This doesn't really help in encounters and so the cost should be measured in narrative potential. And while it can be VERY useful narratively, just being known to have this power can bring a TON of narrative heat. Everyone wants the person who can give the Force, and not typically for altruistic reasons. So I think a moderate cost is fine when looking from a narrative perspective. It can open a lot of doors, but cause a lot of trouble.
2) To grant a non-sensitive party member the ability to use your Force powers during an encounter. for this method, there's two things to consider: you need to be able to generate enough Force points to activate the power, grant the powers you want them to use, AND give them a Force rating high enough to make good use. You can't give them your Unleash without generating SEVEN Force points, which for Force rating 4 is still very difficult. And even then, you need to have also spent XP on the powers you want to grant. So the XP cost for this use is at least doubled, because without having bought other powers, Revelation is worthless. So this should mean the cost should be lower.
3) To increase the effectiveness of a Force-using party member. To do this, you either need to have a power they don't so you can grant it, requiring at least 3 Force points and having the XP cost issue listed above (if you don't have a power they don't, you can't grant it), or to increase their Force rating with the Strength upgrades. This is the big one - you can't do this for party members above Force rating 4, but until then you can boost them up to potentially 4. So the Strength upgrades should be the most expensive.

But also, we need to consider that the "grant someone else the ability to use your Force power for a round" is almost always going to be inefficient - you have no guarantee of being able to grant the power, and even if they're better-specced to using it, the action was probably better spent using the power yourself. You're at least FR 4, for goodness' sake!

All of this being said, I've made some changes - I've reduced the cost of some of the upgrades. The basic power and Mastery are still the same, and the Strength upgrades are unchanged, but the total cost is now 185 - still high, but not so high that you have to give up buying into other things. Also, I've changed the base power again to make the base duration longer.

Let me know what you think of the changes. Good? Bad? is this power still stupid and should be dropped in a lake?

KEMNA’S REVELATION

Prerequisite: Force Rating 4 +

|10 | 10 | 10 | 10 |

|21 |30 | 30 | 30|

|40 | 22|50 | 61|

|62 |23 | 63 | 70|

|80 | 80|90 | 90|

Basic Power [10 - 25xp]: You open another’s spiritual awareness, connecting them to the Force, at the risk of forcing them to confront all the hurt they’ve caused others throughout their lives. Spend [OO] to grant one engaged character Force rating 1 and the basic power of the Sense Force power for 5 minutes (or 1 round in combat) for each point of the target's Willpower characteristic . If any ● generate [O], the target must make an Average fear check .

Duration [21 - 5xp; 22 - 5xp ; 23 - 10xp ]: Spend [O] to increase the duration of this power by 5 minutes (or 1 round) per Duration upgrade purchased. This may be activated multiple times.

Control (Reveal) [30 - 10xp]: Spend [O] to grant the target one Force power you possess with a Force rating prerequisite of 1. The target gains the basic power and all upgrades you possess for the duration of the power. This may be activated multiple times. If you grant the target any Force powers, upgrade the difficulty of any fear check made as part of this power once.

Range [40 - 10xp]: Spend [O] to increase the range of this power by 1 range band. This may be activated multiple times.

Control (Expand/Searing Visions) [50 - 10xp]: If no ● were spent to generate [O], choose one Force talent you possess other than Force Rating. The target gains that Force talent for the duration of the power. If it is a ranked talent, they are treated as having as many ranks as you do. If any ● were used to generate [O], you may spend [TTT] or [D] generated on a fear check made as part of this power to Disorient the target for the remainder of the encounter.

Strength [61 - 10xp; 62 - 15xp; 63 - 20xp]: Spend [OO] to increase the Force rating granted to the target and the difficulty of any fear check made as part of this power by 1 per Strength upgrade purchased.

Control (Inspire) [70 - 15xp ]: Spend [OO] to grant the target one Force power you possess with a Force rating prerequisite of 2, or spend [OOO] to grant the target one Force power you possess with a Force rating prerequisite of 3 for the duration of the power. The target must have a Force rating equal to or higher than the Force rating prerequisite of the granted power. If you do, upgrade the difficulty of any fear check made as part of this power twice.

Control (Epiphany) [80 - 20xp ]: The target’s mind is inundated with information, which provides the answer to one question of personal importance to the target. If any ● generated [O], the target is staggered for 1 round per Force rating granted by the emotional weight of the knowledge gained.

Mastery [90 - 30xp]: Once per session, if no ● were used to generate [O], when the power ends the target may spend 2 Destiny Points and make a Formidable Vigilance check . Reduce the difficulty of this check by the Force rating granted by this power. If the check is successful, the target permanently gains Force rating 1 once the power ends if it did not already have Force rating 1. If any ● generated [O] and the target fails the fear check, you may spend 2 Destiny Points and the target gains the Atonement Obligation at a rating equal to 10 times the Force rating granted by this power.

And the Atonement Obligation, so it's all in one place:

Atonement

The character has inflicted pain in their past, and the weight of the guilt is dragging them down. Now, they seek to balance the scales, and pay back to others what they'd taken previously. It is important to note that the value of this Obligation does not represent how much pain and sorrow the character has inflicted, but how much it weighs on them. A mercenary who has spent her life killing casually and taking what she wants has left a trail of grief and heartache behind her, and will need to make a concerted effort to pay off even 1 or 2 Obligation, while a priest who has devoted himself to helping the less fortunate may only need to renew his vow and redouble his efforts to pay off 10 or more Atonement. If both characters have a Atonement value of 30, however, they are feeling equally guilty about their past. The mercenary, perhaps, is seeing the faces of the hundreds she's killed, while the priest is remembering that one family he was unable to save, and wracking his mind about "what if?"

It's been about a week, so I'm assuming either no one read all the way to my new changes, or everyone thinks I've got it perfect and no changes are needed, right ?

I still think 185 is a bit high as an XP cost (yes, even with the changes I've already made). With the exception of the Epiphany and Mastery upgrades at the very bottom of the tree, the power doesn't do anything at all unless you've bought other things. Sure you can share a single Force talent with the Expand upgrade, but otherwise... you have to buy other powers.

Any thoughts? Or should I just let this die again ?