Good evening lovely people! I've been working on a new Force power, and I wanted to get some opinions from the board about how to make it better! The general idea is as follows: the Force user can awaken latent ability in the target, but by connecting to the everything around them, they are forced to face all the harm they've caused to others. Let me know what you think! I fully expect there to be massive problems with it as written currently; this is just a first draft .

Oh, and in case you're wondering: I have no concerns regarding adhering to canon. I don't care if I'm tearing it to shreds or not .

KEMNA’S REVELATION

Prerequisite: Force Rating 3 +

|10 | 10 | 10 | 10 |

|21 |30 | 30 | 30|

|40 | 22|50 | 61|

|62 |23 | 63 | 70|

|80 | 80|90 | 90|

Basic Power [10 - 20xp]: You open another’s spiritual awareness, connecting them to the Force, at the risk of forcing them to confront all the hurt they’ve caused others throughout their lives. Spend [OO] to grant one engaged character Force rating 1 for 1 round. If any ● generate [O], the target must make an Average fear check .

Duration [21 - 5 xp; 22 - 10 xp; 23 - 20 xp]: Spend [O] to increase the duration of this power by 1 round per Duration upgrade purchased. This may be activated multiple times.

Control (Reveal) [30 - 10 xp]: Spend [O] to grant the target one Force power you possess with a Force rating prerequisite of 1. The target gains the basic power and all upgrades you possess for the duration of the power. This may be activated multiple times. If you grant the target any Force powers, upgrade the difficulty of any fear check made as part of this power once.

Range [40 - 10 xp]: Spend [O] to increase the range of this power by 1 range band. This may be activated multiple times.

Control (Searing Visions) [50 - 10 xp]: Spend [TTT] or [D] generated on a fear check made as part of this power to Disorient the target for the remainder of the encounter.

Strength [61 - 10 xp; 62 - 15 xp; 63 - 20 xp]: Spend [OO] to increase the Force rating granted to the target and the difficulty of any fear check made as part of this power by 1 per Strength upgrade purchased.

Control (Inspire) [70 - 20 xp]: Spend [OO] to grant the target one Force power you possess with a Force rating prerequisite of 2, or spend [OOO] to grant the target one Force power you possess with a Force rating prerequisite of 3 for the duration of the power. The target must have a Force rating equal to or higher than the Force rating prerequisite of the granted power. If you do, upgrade the difficulty of any fear check made as part of this power twice.

Control (Epiphany) [80 - 25 xp]: The target’s mind is inundated with information, which provides the answer to one question of personal importance to the target. If any ● generated [O], the target is staggered for 1 round per Force rating granted by the emotional weight of the knowledge gained.

Mastery [90 - 25 xp]: Once per session, spend [OOOO]. The target may make a Daunting Vigilance check . If the check is successful, the target permanently gains Force rating 1 once the power ends if it did not already have Force rating 1. If any ● generated [O] and the target fails the fear check, the target gains the Atonement Obligation at a rating equal to 5 times the [O] spent on this power.

*P.S. Sorry about the difficulty mapping out the tree layout. I can answer any questions, and if you have suggestions for an easier read, I'm all ears!

Erm. So I like most of this tree but I do not like mastery.

Devils advocate

In the game we have the power to bring folks back to life so I'd rather have it something similar to allow to not use this to just save exp points.

Aww, but the Mastery is the whole point !

I'm curious, but what xp-savings are you referring to? It only makes FR 1 permanent, nor the full FR granted, nor do you keep any powers given as part of the power. At best, you're saving the xp needed to buy a Force-Sensitive spec, and that's worth the following caveats: 1) the power user could generate 6 Force points on one roll (in one try, as the ability is once per session), and the character can make a Daunting Vigilance check.

But, if you feel it's too much, what would you change it to to keep to the concept?

Looks good @Absol197 . Lots of flavor. Seems to accomplish what you want. I like it.

I like everything here but Searing Vision. Not to say that it isn't a cool idea, but my big problem with it is that it's an upgrade that only works if you use Dark Side pips, so it has little use for a character trying their hardest to walk the path of the light. I'd try to make it more like Inspire and Reveal somehow, where it has an effect tied to the Fear check mechanic, but also has some other benefit that doesn't require Dark Side pips to be spent.

Hmm, that's a good point, hadn't thought about that. I'll give it a think! I've got a long plane ride to mull out over, so probably have an alternative someone tonight.

It's cool up until you start giving people the force there. That's the only thing I don't like about this power. It is very well thought out though.

1 minute ago, Shlambate said:

It's cool up until you start giving people the force there. That's the only thing I don't like about this power. It is very well thought out though.

What do you mean? Are you referring to the Mastery like Luahk was? What, in particular, do you dislike about it? I need details, Shlam, details !

3 hours ago, Absol197 said:

Aww, but the Mastery is the whole point !

I'm curious, but what xp-savings are you referring to? It only makes FR 1 permanent, nor the full FR granted, nor do you keep any powers given as part of the power. At best, you're saving the xp needed to buy a Force-Sensitive spec, and that's worth the following caveats: 1) the power user could generate 5 Force points on one roll (in one try, as the ability is once per session), and the character can make a Daunting Vigilance check.

But, if you feel it's too much, what would you change it to to keep to the concept?

Dude I have no idea! ?

I hate giving criticism absent an alternate I just personally feel that GIVING the force to someone is too **** much.

I like the power I just feel that drop is hard. But like I said you can use heal/harm to restore someone to life so in that world it doesn't seem extreme.

4 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

What do you mean? Are you referring to the Mastery like Luahk was? What, in particular, do you dislike about it? I need details, Shlam, details !

Yes the mastery is the problem, it doesn't fit with the General feeling of Star Wars, the rest of the power is great since the force binds all things and it makes sense that you could give someone temporary power if you were really good with force hence the high force rating required.

However the whole giving someone the force permanently doesn't feel like something anyone would be able to do.

Right, I understand that. But remember, canon considerations are thrown out the window here. THIS power is the exception, able to coax someone (or forcibly push them, if using the dark side) to enlightenment, in a limited way. Hence the name of the power being Revelation .

So, if it's possible to set aside the unease regarding the thematic nature of that ability, is the cost involved reasonable for the benefit it provides? Remembering that if you have to use any dark side pips to get yourself up to the 6 Force points needed, there's a chance of giving the target an Obligation at 30, minimum.

1 minute ago, Absol197 said:

Right, I understand that. But remember, canon considerations are thrown out the window here. THIS power is the exception, able to coax someone (or forcibly push them, if using the dark side) to enlightenment, of a sort.

So, if it's possible to set aside the unease regarding the thematic nature of that ability, is the cost involved reasonable for the benefit it provides? Remembering that if you have to use any dark side pips to get yourself up to the 5 Force points needed, there's a chance of giving the target an Obligation at 25, minimum.

Na I'm solid on this piece. The force being a rare gift is a baseline for me. I generally might include this power somewhat in a campaign with the exemption of the last bit. The last bit makes it a deal breaker for me personally. However I'm not a hater and think it's at the least very cool.

Think of this power being used by a Bodhisattva. Yes, the Force, like the spiritual potential for enlightenment, is very rare. But someone skilled and compassionate enough can guide those who wouldn't otherwise be able to connect to it to the beginning of the path.

I guess we just have different interpretations of the Force . Mine is that since it connects all things, everything can be Force-Sensitive, it's just that the vast majority lack the innate ability to realize that potential.

But either way, it appears that most of the objections are thematic and not mechanical, so I'm going to take that as indicating the cost is relatively balanced. It fits my themes, so that's all I need .

27 minutes ago, Shlambate said:

However the whole giving someone the force permanently doesn't feel like something anyone would be able to do.

Well, the game Jedi Knight II revolved around it being possible, and that was fairly well recieved IIRC. And that was on a mass scale.

Perhaps to balance the Mastery out a bit more, the recipient of that brand new FR1 must devote his or her next 10 or 15 XP to paying off the new ability? The game does have mechanics for latent Force users to get powers mid-adventure, provided they pay them off later. This is essentially a version of that.

10 minutes ago, SavageBob said:

Perhaps to balance the Mastery out a bit more, the recipient of that brand new FR1 must devote his or her next 10 or 15 XP to paying off the new ability? The game does have mechanics for latent Force users to get powers mid-adventure, provided they pay them off later. This is essentially a version of that.

Or maybe knock off a few xp for them to take a force class (or negate the cost entirely?).

I would make the user of the power have to spend xp to give the fr increase maybe 15xp

4 minutes ago, TheShard said:

I would make the user of the power have to spend xp to give the fr increase maybe 15xp

That would certainly curtail any potential abuse of the power.

36 minutes ago, TheShard said:

I would make the user of the power have to spend xp to give the fr increase maybe 15xp

The thing is, haven't you already paid that cost by purchasing the Mastery upgrade itself? I am thinking of boosting the cost up to 30 xp, but...let's review.

Using it on an NPC is essentially a narrative ability. A rare and coveted one, but it doesn't really DO all that much. The NPC will grow in further Force rating and Force powers at the speed of plot, the rate at which the GM thinks is necessary to keep that NPC relevant to their purpose in the story. Yes, you've likely altered that character's narrative arc, but you haven't gained anything from doing so. Not directly, at least. And giving NPCs Obligation is the same: they'll pay it off at the rate the GM thinks they should.

So the main concern is giving Force rating 1 to your non-sensitive party members. Generally, Force rating 1 is about 10-15 xp worth of expense, so at a cost of 30 xp, you've essentially pre-paid for three PCs to gain their initial Force rating. And honestly, how many parties that have characters in the multi-hundreds of xp are going to have more than three non-sensitive characters that'll benefit from a free FR 1? Most characters, if being sensitive is part of their concept, will have already bought into Force-Sensitive Exile or Emergent by that time, and if they haven't, then all you're doing is bypassing their need to purchase that spec. Which are potent specs in and of themselves, and many characters using Force and Destiny careers still buy into them at some point.

In essence, you're playing the role of Bodhisattva, like intended: YOU spend some xp so your friends can benefit. The party in total stays essentially neutral, and you have a strong narrative ability you can pull out occasionally to try to indirectly influence NPCs around you. Is an increased cost necessary?

On the mastery I think the person USING the power should gain obligation to teach and mentor and ensure that the new sensitive doesn’t run a mock

Awesome! Space Oprah ahoy.
"YOU get the Force! And YOU get the Force! EVERYBODY gets the Force!"

38 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

The thing is, haven't you already paid that cost by purchasing the Mastery upgrade itself? I am thinking of boosting the cost up to 30 xp, but...let's review.

Using it on an NPC is essentially a narrative ability. A rare and coveted one, but it doesn't really DO all that much. The NPC will grow in further Force rating and Force powers at the speed of plot, the rate at which the GM thinks is necessary to keep that NPC relevant to their purpose in the story. Yes, you've likely altered that character's narrative arc, but you haven't gained anything from doing so. Not directly, at least. And giving NPCs Obligation is the same: they'll pay it off at the rate the GM thinks they should.

So the main concern is giving Force rating 1 to your non-sensitive party members. Generally, Force rating 1 is about 10-15 xp worth of expense, so at a cost of 30 xp, you've essentially pre-paid for three PCs to gain their initial Force rating. And honestly, how many parties that have characters in the multi-hundreds of xp are going to have more than three non-sensitive characters that'll benefit from a free FR 1? Most characters, if being sensitive is part of their concept, will have already bought into Force-Sensitive Exile or Emergent by that time, and if they haven't, then all you're doing is bypassing their need to purchase that spec. Which are potent specs in and of themselves, and many characters using Force and Destiny careers still buy into them at some point.

In essence, you're playing the role of Bodhisattva, like intended: YOU spend some xp so your friends can benefit. The party in total stays essentially neutral, and you have a strong narrative ability you can pull out occasionally to try to indirectly influence NPCs around you. Is an increased cost necessary?

This mirrors my own thoughts: the only real reason to add an additional cost cost is to keep the user from spamming force sensitivity. Obviously this is greatly dependent upon the players at the table and the type and tone of game they enjoy. I love the idea of the user as a bodhisattva BTW.

So is an increase necessary? Depends. If the power is used as a story driver (particularly for npcs) I see no reason for an additional xp cost (particularly for the user to pay). If the GM thinks it could be disruptive, I could then see the xp cost increase if it's paid by the receiver of the FP increase .

Otherwise, I like it as is. YMMV. ?

I'd still charge the recipient 10–15 XP. I get your argument that the Mastery upgrade is already an XP sink, though. If your idea is that the user should have to pay all costs, I'd charge a further 5 XP to the user each time he or she uses this on a fellow PC. In other words, I see as separate the ability to bestow FR 1 on someone, and the ability to keep and benefit from FR 1. In my view, these are two separate things, each of which should have an associated XP cost.

Slightly updated version. I've highlighted the changes in red.

KEMNA’S REVELATION

Prerequisite: Force Rating 4 +

|10 | 10 | 10 | 10 |

|21 |30 | 30 | 30|

|40 | 22|50 | 61|

|62 |23 | 63 | 70|

|80 | 80|90 | 90|

Basic Power [10 - 25xp ]: You open another’s spiritual awareness, connecting them to the Force, at the risk of forcing them to confront all the hurt they’ve caused others throughout their lives. Spend [OO] to grant one engaged character Force rating 1 and the basic power of the Sense Force power for 5 minutes (or 1 round in combat) . If any ● generate [O], the target must make an Average fear check .

Duration [21 - 5xp; 22 - 10xp; 23 - 20xp]: Spend [O] to increase the duration of this power by 5 minutes (or 1 round) per Duration upgrade purchased. This may be activated multiple times.

Control (Reveal) [30 - 10xp]: Spend [O] to grant the target one Force power you possess with a Force rating prerequisite of 1. The target gains the basic power and all upgrades you possess for the duration of the power. This may be activated multiple times. If you grant the target any Force powers, upgrade the difficulty of any fear check made as part of this power once.

Range [40 - 10xp]: Spend [O] to increase the range of this power by 1 range band. This may be activated multiple times.

Control (Expand/Searing Visions) [50 - 10xp]: If no ● were spent to generate [O], choose one Force talent you possess other than Force Rating. The target gains that Force talent for the duration of the power. If it is a ranked talent, they are treated as having as many ranks as you do. If any ● were used to generate [O], you may spend [TTT] or [D] generated on a fear check made as part of this power to Disorient the target for the remainder of the encounter.

Strength [61 - 10xp; 62 - 15xp; 63 - 20xp]: Spend [OO] to increase the Force rating granted to the target and the difficulty of any fear check made as part of this power by 1 per Strength upgrade purchased.

Control (Inspire) [70 - 20xp]: Spend [OO] to grant the target one Force power you possess with a Force rating prerequisite of 2, or spend [OOO] to grant the target one Force power you possess with a Force rating prerequisite of 3 for the duration of the power. The target must have a Force rating equal to or higher than the Force rating prerequisite of the granted power. If you do, upgrade the difficulty of any fear check made as part of this power twice.

Control (Epiphany) [80 - 25xp]: The target’s mind is inundated with information, which provides the answer to one question of personal importance to the target. If any ● generated [O], the target is staggered for 1 round per Force rating granted by the emotional weight of the knowledge gained.

Mastery [90 - 30xp ]: Once per session, if no ● were used to generate [O], when the power ends the target may spend 2 Destiny Points and make a Formidable Vigilance check . Reduce the difficulty of this check by the Force rating granted by this power. If the check is successful, the target permanently gains Force rating 1 once the power ends if it did not already have Force rating 1. If any ● generated [O] and the target fails the fear check, you may spend 2 Destiny Points and the target gains the Atonement Obligation at a rating equal to 10 times the Force rating granted by this power.

I'm still no sold on why granting a PC Force rating 1 at the xp-levels that would be involved for someone using the Mastery upgrade would be so egregious, but I'm open to continuing the discussion.

(For reference, with the increased Force rating prerequisite, the character using this Mastery would have to have spent at least 340 xp, so the party is definitely beyond Knight level by that time, by at least 70 xp, and more if they bought any characteristics at character creation. And assuming they don't want to be able to do anything else.)

EDIT: Bob, perhaps I should phrase my question like this: what benefit do you see a Knight-Level+ character gaining from getting Force rating 1 that's worth the extra xp cost, and how often do you expect a Revelation user to be using this ability to augment party members?

My only problem is that considering that Force manipulation is something your born with and not something you develop it makes little sense to me that you could even give someone the force.

However I have to agree with @Absol197 you either completely focus on this power at expense of your characters performance overall and you give force rating one to a guy/gal with too much Exp spent in the wrong places for it to matter or you don't completely focus on this and your friend still has too much exp in the wrong place to use a free 10 exp FR boost.

I think the original cost was better prophet.