So a knight level non force user might have a couple of careers. So you're really just saving them 30 xp for force sensitive emergent/exile, and then 10 xp off every future career.

Random question. Why vigilance? Shouldn't it be discipline?

3 minutes ago, Luahk said:

Random question. Why vigilance? Shouldn't it be discipline?

Ooh, I love this question! Vigilance because the idea of this power is an opening of perception and understanding. Making the target aware of higher truths through the Force.

I considered Discipline, but that's a skill that deals with concentration and focus, not awareness. There are two "awareness" skills: Perception and Vigilance. I would have preferred Perception, honestly, but I felt it important that the skill used at least link to Willpower, so Vigilance won out.

5 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

Ooh, I love this question! Vigilance because the idea of this power is an opening of perception and understanding. Making the target aware of higher truths through the Force.

I considered Discipline, but that's a skill that deals with concentration and focus, not awareness. There are two "awareness" skills: Perception and Vigilance. I would have preferred Perception, honestly, but I felt it important that the skill used at least link to Willpower, so Vigilance won out.

Interesting take.

4 hours ago, Absol197 said:

EDIT: Bob, perhaps I should phrase my question like this: what benefit do you see a Knight-Level+ character gaining from getting Force rating 1 that's worth the extra xp cost, and how often do you expect a Revelation user to be using this ability to augment party members?

It's really just a game-philosophy question. I err on the side of charging points for things that give a benefit, especially if other characters have to pay for them. No matter how powerful you and your party are, getting FR 1 for "free" (from the recipient's POV) is something that has game-mechanical implications. For that reason, I think it should either come with a mandatory XP cost, or it should come with a mandatory Obligation cost (since you can use Obligation to get stuff in this system).

That said, there are aspects of the game that let you get talents and stuff for narrative reasons, like the battle scars in the Soldier book (I think). My thinking is that FR 1 is worth quite a lot more than a simple battle scar talent, though, since it opens up an entirely new world to the recipient: new Force talents, new Force powers, etc.

At the end of the day, do what works best for your table. I just think it should have some associated cost (in XP or Obligation).

*Deleting airport double post*

For whatever it's worth, to all the people saying something along the lines of "granting Force powers to someone who didn't have them doesn't feel very Star Wars-y"

Dark Empire. Reborn Sheev imbued some of his followers with the Force.

Then again, a lot of people would argue Dark Empire wasn't very Star Wars-y either, so... Yeah?

17 minutes ago, Underachiever599 said:

Then again, a lot of people would argue Dark Empire wasn't very Star Wars-y either, so... Yeah?

I would be one to argue that, Dark empire was a bit of a mess!

I've been wondering if you might want to add a commit force die option to the basic power and/or the duration upgrade and have the power last as long as you commit a force die (or a number of force die equal to the FR you are granting?).

Something like: Basic power : You open another’s spiritual awareness, connecting them to the Force, at the risk of forcing them to confront all the hurt they’ve caused others throughout their lives. Spend [FP][FP] and commit [FD] to grant one engaged character Force rating 1 and the Sense Force basic power for as long as the [FD] remains committed. If any [FP] generate [DA], the target must make an Average fear check.

I almost see this as letting the target use the Force through the user.

It's more (or at least it's supposed to be) the user tapping into the inner potential they always had just didn't know how to access without an instructor.

As an example, have you ever tried to learn a skill, whatever it happens to be, and when you're with your instructor you can do it really well. Then later you try it on your own and you can't seem to get it at all? Your instructor was helping you compensate for the tiny mistakes you didn't know you were making, and once they were gone you didn't realize all the little things you were doing wrong that are standing in your way.

I had that with music in middle school for the longest time. This power is the user acting as the instructor and coaxing the target to greater heights than they thought they could achieve (although they totally can), and the Mastery represents that moment when it all *clicks* and the target can then start learning it all on their own.

I understand that this is very counter to the normal expectation of the Force. Most, including the Jedi and the Sith, think of the Force as something that makes them special, you have it or you don't. The character that theoretically invented this power has a much different thesis, and this power is supposed to be the culmination of that philosophy of the Force.

1 minute ago, Absol197 said:

It's more (or at least it's supposed to be) the user tapping into the insure potential they always had just didn't know how to access without an instructor.

As an example, have you ever tried to learn a skill, whatever it happens to be, and when you're with your instructor you can do it really well. Then later you try it on your own and you can't seem to get it at all? Your instructor was helping you compensate for the tiny mistakes you didn't know you were making, and once they were gone you didn't realize all the little things you were doing wrong that are standing in your way.

I had that with music in middle school for the longest time. This power is the user acting as the instructor and coaxing the target to greater heights than they thought they could achieve (although they totally can), and the Mastery represents that moment when it all *clicks* and the target can then start learning it all on their own.

I understand that this is very counter to the normal expectation of the Force. Most, including the Jedi and the Sith, think of the Force as something that makes them special, you have it or you don't. The character that theoretically invented this power has a much different thesis, and this power is supposed to be the culmination of that philosophy of the Force.

I can see that. Either way, it was just an idea I had while at work. ?

4 minutes ago, JorArns said:

I can see that. Either way, it was just an idea I had while at work. ?

Makes sense. And sorry, I realized halfway through this thread that I'd been working from Kemna's point of view of the Force for so long that I'd forgotten how dissimilar it was from the popular understanding, which is probably what's causing all the dissonance in opinion on the thematics, and I wanted to explain myself a bit clearer .

1 hour ago, Absol197 said:

It's more (or at least it's supposed to be) the user tapping into the inner potential they always had just didn't know how to access without an instructor.

As an example, have you ever tried to learn a skill, whatever it happens to be, and when you're with your instructor you can do it really well. Then later you try it on your own and you can't seem to get it at all? Your instructor was helping you compensate for the tiny mistakes you didn't know you were making, and once they were gone you didn't realize all the little things you were doing wrong that are standing in your way.

I had that with music in middle school for the longest time. This power is the user acting as the instructor and coaxing the target to greater heights than they thought they could achieve (although they totally can), and the Mastery represents that moment when it all *clicks* and the target can then start learning it all on their own.

I understand that this is very counter to the normal expectation of the Force. Most, including the Jedi and the Sith, think of the Force as something that makes them special, you have it or you don't. The character that theoretically invented this power has a much different thesis, and this power is supposed to be the culmination of that philosophy of the Force.

Now makes sense as to why it feels so funny! That's a good clarification.

Personally i like it. I was thinking it would be something like that (always been FS but never knew).

Myself I would suggest that you almost treat mastery as a separate power... my idea is a little rules but...

So leave the basic at FR 3

Mastery requires FR 4

The vigilance check is formidable upgraded twice and add FR to the role

5 O to open targets eyes to what they always knew but never realized (maybe even for every DFP used upgrade difficulty once ( sorry, This doesn't work if the FR is rolled with the check to activate the power))

1 T can increase targets morality by 10

2 T and an extra 3 O can increase FR by 1 more

1 D can drop targets morality by 10

2 D can make target immune to this FP.

3 D can make target immune to all FP

What this suggests is that the targets life had an impact on their morality. You can help them realize their FS but they could potentially be a paragon or even a dark sider.

My only criticism is that the force user is potentially imposing a cost on the target with the mastery. I think it would make sense for the force user to start getting the Obligation as apposed to the target. I think this would also help balance the power. You're using it to give people potential, not direct power. So i don't think it needs an extra XP cost. But making a bunch of realized force users should come at a cost more than XP, whether narrative or otherwise. I think Obligation is a good equelizer for this, but paid for by the force user.

I also generally don't like imposing things on players they have no agency over. If i were to use this power as is i would allow them to at least make a save or something. But i think imposing the cost on the user a better solution.

15 hours ago, SavageBob said:

That said, there are aspects of the game that let you get talents and stuff for narrative reasons, like the battle scars in the Soldier book (I think). My thinking is that FR 1 is worth quite a lot more than a simple battle scar talent, though, since it opens up an entirely new world to the recipient: new Force talents, new Force powers, etc.

At the end of the day, do what works best for your table. I just think it should have some associated cost (in XP or Obligation).

Battle Scars do require spending of xp I believe.

Okay, I realized that, in addition to not explaining how the creator's approach to the Force is different from the Jedi/Sith interpretation, I also haven't provided the explanation of the Atonement Obligation, so I'm going to do that now! Maybe it will help explain a bit further. Sorry, I don't have my Edge Core book with me here in Portlandia, so my explanation may not be in the exact proper format (oh noes ).

Atonement

The character has inflicted pain in their past, and the weight of the guilt is dragging them down. Now, they seek to balance the scales, and pay back to others what they'd taken previously. It is important to note that the value of this Obligation does not represent how much pain and sorrow the character has inflicted, but how much it weighs on them. A mercenary who has spent her life killing casually and taking what she wants has left a trail of grief and heartache behind her, and will need to make a concerted effort to pay off even 1 or 2 Obligation, while a priest who has devoted himself to helping the less fortunate may only need to renew his vow and redouble his efforts to pay off 10 or more Atonement. If both characters have a Atonement value of 30, however, they are feeling equally guilty about their past. The mercenary, perhaps is seeing the faces of the hundreds she's killed, while the priest is remembering that one family he was unable to save, and wracking his mind about "what if?"

Hopefully that helps!

6 hours ago, Noahjam325 said:

I also generally don't like imposing things on players they have no agency over. If i were to use this power as is i would allow them to at least make a save or something. But i think imposing the cost on the user a better solution.

Well, I'll point out that the target of this power does have a save. If they don't want the temporary ability to use the Force at all, the rules for resisting Force Power Checks on F&D 283 still apply. And the Mastery allows the target, not the user, to choose whether they spend the Destiny Points to permanently gain Force rating 1 (if the light side version is used), and the Dark side version does have a save: the Obligation is only gained if they fail the fear check. So there is a save, or a way for the target to either choose to or attempt to avoid the power's effects.

Setting aside the discussion about granting a Force rating for a moment, you also seemed to be wary of granting the target an Obligation, as well.

6 hours ago, Noahjam325 said:

My only criticism is that the force user is potentially imposing a cost on the target with the mastery. I think it would make sense for the force user to start getting the Obligation as apposed to the target.

While this is true, how is this different than someone using Move or Unleash to inflict both Wounds and a Critical Injury? That's a cost, too. Those Wounds go away at a rate of 1 per day unless the character spends credits on medicine or someone to make a Medicine check for them, and it restricts their ability to act by being injured. And the critical injury is permanent until healed.

Obligation, like a Critical Injury, can be removed. It just takes some effort to do so. Critical Injuries are "paid off" by making a Medicine or Resilience check, and Obligation is "healed" by taking actions that address that form of Obligation. Is inflicting Obligation as the form of damage so much worse than Wounds/Crits for a very expensive, high-Force rating prerequisite power?

If it is, I'll consider changing it. But that was my thought process. You need to spend a lot to use this power, the "damage" it inflicts is more long-lasting and can require greater effort on the target's part to heal.

You know this just occurred to me, if anyone had this power the Emperor would hunt you down personally, or at least send Darth after you for being able to make New force users.

What setting is the power intended Absol? The Empire would certainly not be the place for it.

17 minutes ago, Shlambate said:

You know this just occurred to me, if anyone had this power the Emperor would hunt you down personally, or at least send Darth after you for being able to make New force users.

What setting is the power intended Absol? The Empire would certainly not be the place for it.

Well, in the setting that Kemna's in, ironically, the Empire would be the faction that cared the least . It would instead be the Jedi that would be coming after someone with this power most ferociously, and I honestly don't know if it would be to force the user to join, or to simply...disappear them. And there'd be several other major factions that would be interested for less-than-savory reasons, too, like the Alliance or the major criminal faction.

But I didn't really have a setting in mind, actually. I don't think that Kemna herself will ever actually have this power, for multiple reasons, including the GM not being comfortable with homemade material. I was just trying my hand at creating a new Force power, and wanted to make one that resonated with Kem's philosophy of the Force, even if she never actually "made" it in the canon of her story. Her name in the title is because she inspired it, not because she designed it .

In general, I had no set idea for a setting; it was intended for use in any setting where the GM wanted to use it, although from the reactions I got to the capstone ability, it appears that's not going to happen too often .

3 minutes ago, Absol197 said:

In general, I had no set idea for a setting; it was intended for use in any setting where the GM wanted to use it, although from the reactions I got to the capstone ability, it appears that's not going to happen too often .

I design stuff for other games all the time so I understand completely when someone or several someone's focus on detail decreeing it to be OP, but you never know that till you test it! Always wanted to get into game design, someday I should just sit down and make a card game or something.

If you wanted to GM me I'd try it out. Sure I don't like the capstone but I might as well try it.

Aww, thanks Shlam . I don't think I have the mental capacity right now to GM a game, even for just one player, but I appreciate the offer!

The idea of a collection of abilities that allow a force user to share their powers is interesting. Maybe it would fit better into a home-brew talent tree rather than as a force power. Maybe a signature ability for the Mysticm

The theme of the power is quite interesting, and after thinking about it I don't have a problem with the mastery mechanics either. As it requires the use of destiny points it pretty much guarantees it wont happen frivolously. After all, just like morality, only matters during sessions, which is in my mind when the interesting, important stuff happens. For the mundane, routine stuff that happens in between sessions, destiny (and morality changes) aren't really a thing IMO. IE, granting someone force rating is automatically a big, dramatic, important thing and probably doesn't need another limiter.

I considered suggesting that the character using the power might suffer a reduction of 1 in Force Rating for the remainder of the session, but as the theme isn't about imbuing the target with your own power, that felt wrong.

The thing I like the most is that it sides with the notion that there really isn't such a thing as "muggles" as far as the force is concerned, only potential and the difference between conscious and unconscious use. The force is in all living things, even if they can't consciously sense or use it (Han Solo calls it luck, Obi-wan disagrees). I also find the notion that some people are just simply born inherently superior a little tasteless in my little pinko commie heart of hearts.

That said, I think the obligation mechanic could be tweaked. As it is, they are all little skewed towards the light. It makes perfect sense that someone inclined not be a raging bag of... " Richards " would indeed feel a measure of compassion and sympathy to those they might have wronged if suddenly confronted with their perspective of the issue. On the other hand, there are does who would feel empowered by knowing that the people that got in their way now hate and fear them, and perhaps some kind of dark mirror obligation would be suitable in such case, as the character now craves the empowering feeling of being feared. Hard to put in mechanics though, and probably best left to a discussion with the GM.

And what about the one wielding the power (let¨s call them the "Master" for now)? A responsible, compassionate master would surely feel some kind of responsibility towards the newly awakened force user, and whatever actions they may take using their newfound power. Some kind of obligation there could certainly be in it's place. A darker counterpart of such an obligation (for a more... passionate master) isn't quite as obvious, but as the power gives no direct benefit of to the master, what would be the motivation for a selfish person to master such a selfless power? The most likely answer would be the create a pawn (or "apprentice" if you like) to serve them. As this would be a considerable investment in time and effort, it's not unreasonable to apply some kind of obligation pertaining to maintaining control over such an investment.

I'm being a bit vague here, but since obligations key heavily into characterization aspect of role playing it's tricky and sometimes even counter productive to nail down exact rules mechanics for them. I hope the gist of my points are clear enough.

19 hours ago, Absol197 said:

Okay, I realized that, in addition to not explaining how the creator's approach to the Force is different from the Jedi/Sith interpretation, I also haven't provided the explanation of the Atonement Obligation, so I'm going to do that now! Maybe it will help explain a bit further. Sorry, I don't have my Edge Core book with me here in Portlandia, so my explanation may not be in the exact proper format (oh noes ).

Atonement

The character has inflicted pain in their past, and the weight of the guilt is dragging them down. Now, they seek to balance the scales, and pay back to others what they'd taken previously. It is important to note that the value of this Obligation does not represent how much pain and sorrow the character has inflicted, but how much it weighs on them. A mercenary who has spent her life killing casually and taking what she wants has left a trail of grief and heartache behind her, and will need to make a concerted effort to pay off even 1 or 2 Obligation, while a priest who has devoted himself to helping the less fortunate may only need to renew his vow and redouble his efforts to pay off 10 or more Atonement. If both characters have a Atonement value of 30, however, they are feeling equally guilty about their past. The mercenary, perhaps is seeing the faces of the hundreds she's killed, while the priest is remembering that one family he was unable to save, and wracking his mind about "what if?"

Hopefully that helps!

Well, I'll point out that the target of this power does have a save. If they don't want the temporary ability to use the Force at all, the rules for resisting Force Power Checks on F&D 283 still apply. And the Mastery allows the target, not the user, to choose whether they spend the Destiny Points to permanently gain Force rating 1 (if the light side version is used), and the Dark side version does have a save: the Obligation is only gained if they fail the fear check. So there is a save, or a way for the target to either choose to or attempt to avoid the power's effects.

Setting aside the discussion about granting a Force rating for a moment, you also seemed to be wary of granting the target an Obligation, as well.

While this is true, how is this different than someone using Move or Unleash to inflict both Wounds and a Critical Injury? That's a cost, too. Those Wounds go away at a rate of 1 per day unless the character spends credits on medicine or someone to make a Medicine check for them, and it restricts their ability to act by being injured. And the critical injury is permanent until healed.

Obligation, like a Critical Injury, can be removed. It just takes some effort to do so. Critical Injuries are "paid off" by making a Medicine or Resilience check, and Obligation is "healed" by taking actions that address that form of Obligation. Is inflicting Obligation as the form of damage so much worse than Wounds/Crits for a very expensive, high-Force rating prerequisite power?

If it is, I'll consider changing it. But that was my thought process. You need to spend a lot to use this power, the "damage" it inflicts is more long-lasting and can require greater effort on the target's part to heal.

The big reason i don't consider the cost of Obligation and Wounds/Strain to be equitable is because Wounds/Strain are very firmly defined and understand in the rules. Obligation is much more... open to interpretation. It requires more work on the part of both the GM and player to interpret or "put a value on" so to speak, unlike Wounds/Strain.

Otherwise i really like the idea behind the force power. I'm currently considering giving this a try with my players. We're currently just doing very casual episodic adventures every week. So I'm currently using this time to practice and try all my whacky ideas. I might be able to convince our force user to give this a try. I would probably tweak the lore around it to better suit our setting though.

Given how border irrelevant conflict is in this system, use the DS pips. Use it a couple times, gain a little conflict, go pet some puppies or give a homeless person food, you're good to go.