I was listening to a Netrunner Podcast where a competitive player said he tore his Whizzard card into tiny pieces, not because it was a bad card, but that he played it so much, he was sick of it. I can understand that if you play multiple times per week, and you play tournaments regularly, and you know the meta well, then you would welcome rotation because it makes the card pool more reliable to predict combinations which gives you an advantage to win at tournaments. That's why Magic pros typically prefer to avoid Modern GPs because it's easier to build a deck within the Standard or current Limited formats that gives you an edge if you do your homework.

How many people actually play this game at this level? The tournaments I have seen on YouTube have like 20 to 30 people watching the feature matches, in a room that probably seats 60 people for the event.

Anyway, as a casual player who has never played in a tournament, who only gets to play a few times per year, and who has invested into everything released to this point, it feels like $180 of my investment into the first two cycles of the game is going away soon, and I haven't explored many of those cards. I have never played a deck with Whizzard. And now I probably never will.

What options do I have? Sell my collection at 1/3 of MSRP while it's all in 100% condition? Or I could play more, however, I work evenings and cannot make it to the one shop in my area that actually has a Netrunner community, and it's a 45 min drive from my house if by chance I have 2 or 3 nights off per year (I have played there in the past, and it's a great community and really fun when I can make it). I could quit and just store my cards on a shelf. How about radically accept rotation and keep buying new product since my current decks will no longer be viable, and I would have to net deck my builds, and those will contain newly released cards.

Speculation about a reset into 2.0 sounds even worse. If that happens, and depending on the implementation, it could wreck my entire investment into the game, with entirely wrecking the value of all cards I own.

Ok, now let me provide some possible alternative solutions.

What would work for me is to have multiple options.

1. Only do "rotation" or "restrictions" for special circumstances or events. That could be really fun, and provide conditions to create metas and deck building creativity. They could do seasonal restrictions, event restrictions, and even make supportive product for special events.

2. If FFG rotates out entire products from the whole legal set of cards for all play, I strongly believe you should be able to send in the rotated out product for store credit towards new product.

3. Sell singles so players can only spend money on the cards that are legal and in the amount they need for the decks they are interested in playing. Then, when cards rotate out, they casual player takes less of a financial hit, and it costs much less to stay in the game, instead of considering Jacking Out. If I could build a deck out of singles, and pay $50 to play for the year just for a specific Corp and Runner deck, I would.

4. Formats. Magic already does this, so why not use the model for those who want to play rotated out cards?

5. Reprints - Reprinting cards allows the card to come out of rotation and back into play. This gives FFG more control over defining the current meta, and allows players to hold on to their collection with the hope that they can play cards rotated out in the future.

6. Errata - the effects of a rotated out card can be altered with errata which could allow the card to be played in its revised state. I think the cards need to be reprinted though, not just put in a .pdf on the website, and you have to use the revised errata printed version.

7. Influence cost - you could spend influence to bring in rotated out cards.

8. Allow Corps and Runner cards to always remain legal, while rotating out the other cards. That way, each Corp and Runner would be more or less viable based on the pool of current cards that are legal.

As a casual player, simply rotating out product you spent money on without the knowledge that those purchases would become illegal to play is wrong in my opinion. I wish FFG would implement solutions that work for everyone, not just the few hundred people who play at the highest competitive level. It should have said on the front of the box when it first released that after 7 cycles of cards, the first two cycles will rotate out.

I'm not a fan of Errata at all. Once too many cards are errata no one knows what the cards are suppose to say. More of a fan of banning and then printing up something new that is similar but balanced.

There is a rumor of a new core set which may contain reprints or similar cards in function. I believe they already did a few similar functioning cards already.

Rotation is usually a healthy thing that keeps the game fresh. I do have a problem with the old cards people spent money on no longer being valid though. Can't really solve that problem and do a rotation though.

Unfortunately all of your objections, while they certainly hurt, are a distant second to the practical necessities that make rotation necessary. These cards will have been around for over four years, and if you can't get your money's worth out of them in that time, well, you choose your level of involvement. Nobody's saying that tournament regulations should apply to the kitchen table Netrunner that you've been doing, though going forward you're going to find a lot of Things That Should Not Be since new cards will have no balancing against degenerate combos with rotated product.

Netrunner is not rebooting to 2.0. There is talk of a Revised core set comprised of Core+some Genesis/Spin cards that would then not rotate out, but that's all.

Your suggestions:

1) Not going to happen for game balance purposes.

2) Think about this for more than two seconds, please. Yes, let's wipe out all profitability on a 1-for-1 basis.

3) Think about this for more than two seconds, please. What company is going to go out of its way to facilitate its customers not to buy its product?

4) I'll honestly be surprised if Official OP ever supports a Legacy format, for the aforementioned game balance purposes, and because late adopters would have no access to out-of-print product. There is already the alternate Cache Refresh format, though.

5) Again, facilitating customers not to buy the product is a complete non-starter.

6) This is a terrible unworkable headache of an idea.

7) Nope. Again, the point is to keep the phase space of cards which must be playtested, kept in print, and stocked by retailers at or below a certain ceiling. Cards must leave the card pool for it to stay healthy from a game balance and a logistical point of view.

8) I assume you mean IDs. Again, no. You can't keep things in print evergreen for the reasons above.

Hm.... Its interesting how the word "rotation" seems to be the only solution. Surely, there can be a variety of solutions to a problem. Its that kind of thinking that limits creativity and possible solutions. I believe there are alternative solutions which would allow players to either use cards they have purchased, or otherwise allow them to obtain value from them, and at the same time, address the concerns they have regarding the need to initiate such changes to keep the game healthy.

When there is only one proposed solution, players are then forced to either comply or not play the game. I don't like either option.

The requirements dictate the solution. You mistake in there only being one alternative offered for there having been only one alternative which can do the job.

1. Cards cannot remain in print indefinitely for both logistical and game balance reasons.

2. It's fundamental to the LCG format that there is no rarity, that all legal cards are equally available to all players.

3. The card pool cannot grow indefinitely as this continually increases the price of participation, perceived or otherwise.

I addressed how all of your various solutions were bad ideas; if you have any good ideas then by all means put them forward. But this policy was announced over two years ago, and only after a lot of thought had already been put into it.

And, ultimately, the particulars of your situation don't represent the majority of the player base. While high end competitive players do comprise a minority of the player base, the health of the meta-game must assume that competition is available to everyone as well. It sucks to be an outlier, for sure. Rotation *is* bad for your circumstances. But you are falling into the fallacy of "this course of action would benefit me personally," therefore "the company should do this thing." It ain't necessarily so.

Rotation is the worst solution, except all others that have been tried. Rotation is pretty standard for card games with large pools. The other solution is a complete reboot, which invalidates all the cards or simply do nothing, which has problems as well.

On 9/7/2017 at 8:24 AM, Redsavina said:

Anyway, as a casual player who has never played in a tournament

Rotation only affects tournament play. Nothing is stopping you from playing casually with the soon-to-be-rotated cards. Rotation literally does not affect you at all.

Unless you are a tournament player, the rotation means absolutely nothing. I am a collection guy and I play gentleman's games, where we don't netdeck and we will play formats like only core and one cycle or even one specific data pack allowed for deck creation. To me, these cards will never die until there are no more players willing to play.

If I play at the kitchen table, then yes, rotation is meaningless. Typically, I host board game nights at my kitchen table with 4-8 people, so Netrunner isn't really an option.

As soon as I show up at a shop to meet up for their non-tournament league or Netrunner night, then I am sure they are adhering to rotation standards for deck construction. There is one shop about 45 minutes from my house with a healthy league, but I can't make it on the nights they host it. Another shop 30 min from me used to do Saturday's, but the last 2 times I went nobody showed for Netrunner. Now, another local shop is trying to start 1 Saturday per month and has a couple of players that might show up. That makes it difficult for me to play the game, especially when 25 to 30 guys show up regularly for Saturday morning Commander.

I am not involved enough with the game to even be aware of when or where I would even find tournament play for Netrunner. That's part of the problem for this game as well. I know of multiple shops who host Magic events with different formats, and which ones I would be interested in playing and how much they cost, and I can easily look up GP events in my region (I went to the Denver GP a month ago) but I have no clue about any local or regional competitive events for Netrunner.

Ahh, yeah that would be tough. Certainly if my friend who frequently plays this with me moves, and I cannot get my other friends to play then having to rely on gameshop play will likely lead to only tournament compliant decks. That could be a problem. Especially since I play for fun and don't care at all about tournaments.

You never played an event? were you about to start?

Then why worry?

You don't really sound like a casual player.

It sounds like you want to play net runner so you bought a bunch of it when you were excited but don't have the time or oppratunity to play.

That is ok, not everyone has time or situation in their life for an lCG. I don't personally. I casually play a bit of destiny and used to casually play a bit of net runner.

But!

FFG can't let their game die to serve people who are no longer playing or buying cards! And net runner is very much dying.

The alternative to rotation is power creep witch does a somewhat poorer job at shaking up a card pool than rotation.

Excuse my ignorance.

I don't play Netrunner. But it is on my horizon of possible purchases.

I played Magic, never compete. However I enjoy some kind of challenging level.

I really like Netrunner theme and the asymmetric stuff. It seems fun.

I love what LCG means. I want to get what I look for.

I don't care about collecting everything.

What all about rotation means?

How much fun could I get from a core set?

Would it be some kind of closed game? I don't have problems with expansions but I hate when a game expand quickly and in aeternum making games between different "generation" players almost impossible.

Is it possible to focus on a pair of factions and get fun/being competitive minimally?

Does it worth moving into it?

Cash / year?

You can play casually with 1 Core Set (original or revised), there are enough cards to make 1 Runner deck and 1 Corp deck (you have to shuffle neutral cards around to change them). I'm not sure how those decks will hold up against decks made from the full revised card pool (you'd get crushed against decks made with the non-revised cardpool). Minimally, you'd buy the deluxes for your factions (even cheaper if they're paired: Shaper/HB, Criminal/Jinteki, Anarch/Weyland, NBN is paired with runner mini-factions). After that, it depends on how competitive you want to be.

I am looking for something less than MTG but more than SmashUp.

I like how accesible is SmashUp but I would like more deckbuilding and more complexity.

Basically I would like a card pool big enough to provide variety and feed creativity but not so huge that it would be, at the end, imposible to encompass.

It sounds like Netrunner would fit the bill for you.

Step one, a single Revised Core Set when they hit stores.

if it turns out it's something you like, the usual release schedule is one Data Pack about every month for $15 to stay current.

There is a substantial back catalogue of Deluxe Sets that are good bang-for-your buck, as well as a standard-play compatible Campaign Expansion that is pitched as a good second purchase for a new player. Don't feel like you have to go out and get everything all at once.

Data Packs are subject to rotation. Once the Eighth Data pack cycle begins, the oldest two Data Packs rotate out, so there are only ever 5-7 cycles in the card pool.

Obviously the older a Data Pack cycle is, the less value there is to a new player to invest in it unless you have a specific need for particular cards.

To find a group of players, jump on r/Netrunner or the Netrunner Dorks Facebook community.

39 minutes ago, Grimwalker said:

It sounds like Netrunner would fit the bill for you.

Step one, a single Revised Core Set when they hit stores.

if it turns out it's something you like, the usual release schedule is one Data Pack about every month for $15 to stay current.

There is a substantial back catalogue of Deluxe Sets that are good bang-for-your buck, as well as a standard-play compatible Campaign Expansion that is pitched as a good second purchase for a new player. Don't feel like you have to go out and get everything all at once.

Data Packs are subject to rotation. Once the Eighth Data pack cycle begins, the oldest two Data Packs rotate out, so there are only ever 5-7 cycles in the card pool.

Obviously the older a Data Pack cycle is, the less value there is to a new player to invest in it unless you have a specific need for particular cards.

To find a group of players, jump on r/Netrunner or the Netrunner Dorks Facebook community.

So rotation means that only a discrete number of expansions are "active" in the competitive scene right?

Would the expansions "inactive" be "activated" again? Actually rotating or they are lost for good?

Yeah, only a bounded number of expansions are active at the same time. What they announced back in 2014 was that, once inactive, expansions stayed that way. However, the revised core set is made of cards from the original core set and the first 2 cycles (the ones that rotation will become inactive shortly). So they could re-release some of the cards from the inactivated expansions.

8 hours ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I am looking for something less than MTG but more than SmashUp.

I like how accesible is SmashUp but I would like more deckbuilding and more complexity.

Basically I would like a card pool big enough to provide variety and feed creativity but not so huge that it would be, at the end, imposible to encompass.

First, if it is worth moving into really depends if there is a playgroup in your area. If there is, then yes, it is a great game. If there isn't anyone to play with, there is an online alternative, but maybe not worth while without a playgroup.

As far as card pool size, it is more than MTG standard but far less than Modern. It isn't impossible to encompass the card pool, as so many of the cards are stinkers and just aren't played, however there is a learning curve and it isn't so small. Netrunnerdb.com is an excellent resource and really helps with learning the cards.

The best thing you can do is watch the game played online. Metropole Grid on Youtube is a pretty good channel although there are several out there. At this point, you do want to wait for the new core set which will take several months. As for buying in, at some point you'll want a lot of the cards that are out there. Sadly most data packs only have a few playable cards with the rest being filler. However some data packs are much better than others and some data packs you can pass on completely.

The price point is a huge barrier to this game. For simple casual play contained in itself, a single core would work but is very limited and really won't be playable against decks using the full card pool, rotated or not. If you really get into the game, you'll probably end up with 3 core sets, 3-5 deluxe expansions and at least 10 data packs, so you can do the math on that. All the factions are good and fun to play, so forget about concentrating on just a couple, you'll want to play them all. Since all the cards are mixed in the data packs, you'll have all the cards for all the factions anyways. You also get a certain amount of influence to bring in cards from other factions into your deck, so having the varied card pool is great even if you have a couple of favorite factions.

After the big buy in, it is fairly cheap at maybe $15 a month, if the data pack is worth buying that month and probably one deluxe a year and those are usually pretty good and currently don't rotate out. So once you get into the game, it is fairly cheap but their is a huge cost to get into this game. It is still far cheaper than any CCG. Jinteki.net is an alternative, but please support the paper game.

1 hour ago, Mep said:

The price point is a huge barrier to this game. For simple casual play contained in itself, a single core would work but is very limited and really won't be playable against decks using the full card pool, rotated or not. If you really get into the game, you'll probably end up with 3 core sets, 3-5 deluxe expansions and at least 10 data packs, so you can do the math on that. All the factions are good and fun to play, so forget about concentrating on just a couple, you'll want to play them all. Since all the cards are mixed in the data packs, you'll have all the cards for all the factions anyways. You also get a certain amount of influence to bring in cards from other factions into your deck, so having the varied card pool is great even if you have a couple of favorite factions.

After the big buy in, it is fairly cheap at maybe $15 a month, if the data pack is worth buying that month and probably one deluxe a year and those are usually pretty good and currently don't rotate out. So once you get into the game, it is fairly cheap but their is a huge cost to get into this game. It is still far cheaper than any CCG. Jinteki.net is an alternative, but please support the paper game.

Mep overstates things. He's not technically wrong, but you absolutely do not have to make a large initial investment.

Yes, you may eventually wind up with 2, possibly 3 core sets, three to five deluxes, and upwards of ten data packs, but the pace at which you buy products is entirely up to you. It took me about a year to get that much product when I bought into the Game of Thrones LCG, and I was having fun from start to finish. Moreover you can look up what cards are in which products so as to make sure you're getting your best bang for your buck.

I'll reiterate what I said before:

1. start with one Revised Core Set.
2. If you like that, consider the Terminal Directive campaign expansion.
3. Consider picking up newly released data packs as they come out
4. Evaluate the back catalog for desirable Deluxe Sets and previously-released Data Packs, based on what you like to play and what your decks seem to need.

Actually, when you compare the cost of Netrunner to MTG, I find Netrunner to be very inexpensive.

Its quite common for an MTG standard deck to cost $300, or a competitive Modern deck to cost $400 to $800 just for the single 75 card deck.

With Netrunner, you could drop $450 on new product, and then be able to build most of the competitive decks used in tournaments, and that includes both Corp and Runner decks.

I am not against rotations at all. However I think that this rotation can be used in a way to expand the competitive play space of netrunner by use of formats. Much like how Magic has adopted EDH with their Commander format, I think netrunner can benefit from said format that makes use of both currently in play and cycled out cards. Not all the cards rotated out were completely broken, it is just the current influence system wasn't enough to keep them permeating through out every deck into power combos (the main reason the 1st edition failed), something the faction/influence design was supposed to prevent. Which is why you had Parasite in every Shaper deck and Howard Jackson in every Corp deck.

I think there should be a format that can make use of the old cards without allowing them to run rampant like a virus, as well as make good on the balance of the competitive scene. We just have to make it just like how EDH was a player made format.

You're highly likely to encounter broken combos, as no regard for rotated cards is taken in playtesting for Kitara cycle onward.

Additionally, the LCG model is predicated on having a level playing field and no collectibility or aftermarket aside from alt art cards. This Legacyish thing you're fixated on is unfair to players who have no ready access to out-of-print material.

I strongly suspect that FFG will never support any format involving OOP or rotated cards. I personally think it's a bad idea from both a balance and a community perspective.

On 9/12/2017 at 7:43 AM, hengst2404 said:

Ahh, yeah that would be tough. Certainly if my friend who frequently plays this with me moves, and I cannot get my other friends to play then having to rely on gameshop play will likely lead to only tournament compliant decks. That could be a problem. Especially since I play for fun and don't care at all about tournaments.

I am a casual player, so I don't much care about the card cycles and rotation and all that. Meh. That said, the last of the casual players I played with in that manner has just moved away. So now, I need to go to some local events (which likely means 2.0 compliant decks) to see if I can find a new group of casual players to "hang" with to play some casual Netrunner for fun on occasion. So core 2.0 rules are annoying from that perspective as a casual player, but it shouldn't be too hard to adjust a couple of decks to core 2.0 rules, go to a game night or two and see if I can find some new casual players.

16 hours ago, CrowOfPyke said:

I am a casual player, so I don't much care about the card cycles and rotation and all that. Meh. That said, the last of the casual players I played with in that manner has just moved away. So now, I need to go to some local events (which likely means 2.0 compliant decks) to see if I can find a new group of casual players to "hang" with to play some casual Netrunner for fun on occasion. So core 2.0 rules are annoying from that perspective as a casual player, but it shouldn't be too hard to adjust a couple of decks to core 2.0 rules, go to a game night or two and see if I can find some new casual players.

Certainly what I am going to have to do our here in Virginia. Fortunately I am getting ready to move and will be close to two different game shops, so my odds should be better. I may check meetup as well since I had luck creating a tabletop Numenera group that way.

Getting decks 2.0 compliant will be a lot of work, however, will the 2.0 game more fun to play? Kinda have to play it to figure that out.