16 minutes ago, svelok said:

Comparing the Resistance Falcon to Parking Brake Han

Rebel R2Dcrew + Dampeners + I6 is broken. Han breaks it ever-so-slightly more by rerolling R2. Without those two cards, Rebel Han is mediocre, and the rest of the Rebel Falcons are mediocre or bad.

And the Resistance Falcon is significantly worse than the Rebel version, for almost the same cost. The generic is only 1 point less!!! Chewie is only 1 point less!!! OK, Han is 6 points less, but he doesn't even have a pilot ability. Rebel Han's ability is more than worth those 6 points.

The Resistance Falcon feels fair to fly against because it's massively overpriced. It is in serious need of a cost reduction.

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

The tricky thing is Resistance YT1300s actually need help.

Could 3x generic Scavenged YT-1300 for Resistance be the next 3x Proton Torpedo Knave E-Wing? The thing originally priced out of existence, only to realize it'd probably be fine?

Stat-wise, they aren't super tough, their dial isn't very good, and their actions are kinda weak. If there's any 3-dice turret that could be attempted as a 3-per-list, it's the Resistance Sympathizer.

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Only thing for sure is the YT1300 and StarFortress are gonna get much cheaper.

Could Trajectory Simulator come down in price? The original 3 points was utter BS and far too cheap. The current 10 points was probably an overreaction to a Punisher-heavy metagame. Something like 6 is probably fair. This would help out StarFortresses, and maybe allow a Punisher or two to creep back into game a bit. Punisher isn't dumpster-tier, but it's not that widespread.

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

I still beleive the large based turrets are poorly designed in 2.0: they needed to have a linked action to rotate red. Lacking it, they will relay on dumb combos or insane costs to be relevant which kinda sucks because they should be a legit archetype imo

Something I'd love have would be end-phase Red Rotate actions from a cheap Modification upgrade. It both costs stress, as well as telegraphs arcs, but you can still get it done. *e* Sort of Agile Gunner with a bigger drawback, thus a lower price.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

Maybe I'm somewhat alone but the Resistance Falcon seems to me to by dramatically more fair than the Rebel one.

I don't think that's a wrong statement at all.

But no doubt that's exactly why almost no one flies the Resistance Falcon.

8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Something I'd love have would be end-phase Red Rotate actions from a cheap Modification upgrade. It both costs stress, as well as telegraphs arcs, but you can still get it done.

8 points

he said cheap and modification

7 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

8 points

Both really expensive, and eating up a potentially valuable gunner slot. Something which did a red rotate action would require an unstressed ship to begin with, plus then you'd have to deal with the stress the next turn. Heck, slap two non-recurring charges on to it.

The problem with Agile Gunner is that it's priced like it's providing an extra action each turn. 8 points is the same as a Perceptive Copilot, and is fair for double actions. Which it *can* do, but the secret is that you won't need an extra rotate action each turn. You'll maybe need it twice a game. A more restrictive and limited upgrade could be priced a lot cheaper, and be a lot more fun and interesting.

Also, it'd be wicked sweet on a Lancer/Shadowcaster. Their mobile arc is essentially non-functional due to lack of a Gunner slot, and their excellent dial is wasted due to lack of ways to leverage stress. A few-use stressful rotation tool could help them leverage some of the features of their ship a bit.

41 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Also, it'd be wicked sweet on a Lancer/Shadowcaster. Their mobile arc is essentially non-functional due to lack of a Gunner slot, and their excellent dial is wasted due to lack of ways to leverage stress.

Id say the super fast K turn is a hugely significant way to leverage its blues. The Lancer is an interesting case. Its reasonably priced (60-76), has an excellent dial, extra agility, and the luxury of a rotatable arc that can still punish ships by closing to r1.

I think my disconnect is when I test Big Base turrets its always within the context of how incredibly effective big base forward only no reposition no turn around ships can be with just a tiny bit of preplanning ( you dont even have to stall in a corner or go super slow ). Every version of turrets feels so much more flexible compared to that. Basically when testing I dont really treat turrets as turrets. There just lumbering forward arc ships with varying levels of mechanics that make them substantially easier ( rotate actions, turn around dial moves, boosts, or passive mods ).

It feels like there is a real genuine lack of understanding of how to use 2.0 big turrets well (ignore Fat Han and Dash Rorak, they dont count and are their own genre). These type of ships are very rarely discussed tactically. It would be “interesting” to actually define what good turret play looks like.

My gut tells me the best way to learn to play them well is to run Forward Locked big bases without repositions or turn arounds and then add all the tricks that make that type of combat easier.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

My gut tells me the best way to learn to play them well is to run Forward Locked big bases without repositions or turn arounds and then add all the tricks that make that type of combat easier

It’s what I’ve been doing with Lancer. Pretty near forget the turret and run it like an oversized fighter. Probably still overpriced but heck of a lot of fun and not hugely underpowered when you plan your movement well and don’t telegraph your turns and k-turns.

I don’t think they need a gunner or linked action, really. Ketsu and Assaj are both very close already, the Lancer just doesn’t do the Falcon spirals in game play.

6 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

AP-5 could also work but it requires a bit of wishfull thinking to directly compare it to Cassian. He was doing fine before Leia thought, but mostly in 5 ships or proton torps builds iirc

I took Wedge, Luke, Braylen, and AP-5 to Top 8 at the Atlanta System Open. I'm super glad I took AP-5.

He allowed me to have 3 ships with 3 double attack mods, and at time allowed Braylen to slow roll and keep his stress by coordinating a focus into roll. Furthermore AP-5 just usually gets ignored and coordinates all the time, and gets some nice pot shots from the front and back. With Cassian you feel more obligated to keep focusing with him to keep his attack mods up, only needing to coordinate if you need be. Also I like AP-5's smaller footprint so my other ships can get around him easier. I'm not entirely sure I'll ever fly a U-wing again so long I've got AP-5 to use instead, just fits what i'm looking for better.

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Id say the super fast K turn is a hugely significant way to leverage its blues. The Lancer is an interesting case. Its reasonably priced (60-76), has an excellent dial, extra agility, and the luxury of a rotatable arc that can still punish ships by closing to r1.

All fair. I still feel like it's in the "trust me, it's not that bad" tier.

1 hour ago, LagJanson said:

It’s what I’ve been doing with Lancer. Pretty near forget the turret and run it like an oversized fighter. Probably still overpriced but heck of a lot of fun and not hugely underpowered when you plan your movement well and don’t telegraph your turns and k-turns.

I don’t think they need a gunner or linked action, really. Ketsu and Assaj are both very close already, the Lancer just doesn’t do the Falcon spirals in game play.

I just keep going back to how much the rear guns on a Lambda, ARC, RZ-2, and TIE/sf actually matter, and figure if there was an "easy" way to trade stress for shots like a version of the 1e Gyroscopic Targeting with a stress drawback, that might kick the Lancer a tier up into "why aren't more people flying this?"

57 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I just keep going back to how much the rear guns on a Lambda, ARC, RZ-2, and TIE/sf actually matter, and figure if there was an "easy" way to trade stress for shots like a version of the 1e Gyroscopic Targeting with a stress drawback, that might kick the Lancer a tier up into "why aren't more people flying this?"

If you want a full turret ship, the Falcon is there and waiting for you in Scum. That’s not what the Lancer is for. 2.0 she's a fighter with a turret when you mess up... though I suppose the cheap generic can set a side and you can start the spiral. Is 60 points for that dial, health, agility and two arcs a bad cost? Not really thinking so, but I haven’t seen anybody math it out yet

17 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

If you want a full turret ship, the Falcon is there and waiting for you in Scum. That’s not what the Lancer is for. 2.0 she's a fighter with a turret when you mess up... though I suppose the cheap generic can set a side and you can start the spiral. Is 60 points for that dial, health, agility and two arcs a bad cost? Not really thinking so, but I haven’t seen anybody math it out yet

A fighter stuck with a large base and no ability to reposition.

Or, just take a Firespray, for a better shield ratio, better second arc, smaller base, white boost, red reinforce, and fighter-y one hards rather than guess-I'm-over-here-now threes.

Generic ARCs are "good". Are they like really good, or just like kinda good? Broken good? I dunno.

But ARCs are 42 points.

Would you ever pay the 18 points to have Shadowport Hunters in Republic instead of 104ths? Or the 15 points to turn Norra into Ketsu?

6 hours ago, MegaSilver said:

I took Wedge, Luke, Braylen, and AP-5 to Top 8 at the Atlanta System Open. I'm super glad I took AP-5.

He allowed me to have 3 ships with 3 double attack mods, and at time allowed Braylen to slow roll and keep his stress by coordinating a focus into roll. Furthermore AP-5 just usually gets ignored and coordinates all the time, and gets some nice pot shots from the front and back. With Cassian you feel more obligated to keep focusing with him to keep his attack mods up, only needing to coordinate if you need be. Also I like AP-5's smaller footprint so my other ships can get around him easier. I'm not entirely sure I'll ever fly a U-wing again so long I've got AP-5 to use instead, just fits what i'm looking for better.

Congratulations for the result!

I can see ap5 surviving the first engagement with some careful flying, but if he's still alive after the second one you are either being blessed by dice or by being playing against fat plants rather than opponents

Why would someone ignore an easy to kill, probably action less, ps 1 with leia who enables your whole list?

10 hours ago, MegaSilver said:

I took Wedge, Luke, Braylen, and AP-5 to Top 8 at the Atlanta System Open. I'm super glad I took AP-5.

He allowed me to have 3 ships with 3 double attack mods, and at time allowed Braylen to slow roll and keep his stress by coordinating a focus into roll. Furthermore AP-5 just usually gets ignored and coordinates all the time, and gets some nice pot shots from the front and back. With Cassian you feel more obligated to keep focusing with him to keep his attack mods up, only needing to coordinate if you need be. Also I like AP-5's smaller footprint so my other ships can get around him easier. I'm not entirely sure I'll ever fly a U-wing again so long I've got AP-5 to use instead, just fits what i'm looking for better.

I took a Hyperspace version of that squad (Wedge/Luke/Thane/Jake) to the one Trial I was able to attend. Certainly in my case Wedge and Luke were the heart of the squad. I'm glad to see it works pretty well in Extended.

8 hours ago, svelok said:

A fighter stuck with a large base and no ability to reposition.

Or, just take a Firespray, for a better shield ratio, better second arc, smaller base, white boost, red reinforce, and fighter-y one hards rather than guess-I'm-over-here-now threes.

Huh. Look at that, the generic Firespray is 66 compared to the Lancer at 60... Lot of advantages for 6 points.

15 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

8 points

No, it needs to be a game mechanic with an easily mitigated downside, so he can take some combination of crew and upgrades that gets around the downside. Duh.

16 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

I love that art. I can just hear the guy on the right keeping up a constant stream of "He's over there, you should probably shoot him, no hit him, aim better, right there, you missed again, I'm pointing right at him why aren't you shooting him?" the entire fight

10 hours ago, LagJanson said:

If you want a full turret ship, the Falcon is there and waiting for you in Scum. That’s not what the Lancer is for. 2.0 she's a fighter with a turret when you mess up... though I suppose the cheap generic can set a side and you can start the spiral. Is 60 points for that dial, health, agility and two arcs a bad cost? Not really thinking so, but I haven’t seen anybody math it out yet

Lancer Efficiency is probably not too bad. I think it gets enough nice perks over a generic Sith Infiltrator for the price difference, given the similarities between them.

But looking at the specific advantages--extra agility, those amazing blue moves, the backup turret--there aren't too many ways to leverage those advantages. Great blues with only one red move on the dial (even though it's a great red move) and no high-value red actions. A nice bonus turret, but the Title and Ketsu both require it to be front. If you rotate, you'll lose access to the dice mods which support the strong (for a Large Base) 2 green dice. I'd agree that the ship is "almost there" but a little touch, not a redesign into a full turret, could make it a bit easier to use all the tools in the Lancer toolbox.

I think 2e has a lot of nifty upgrade designs like Collision Detector or R4-P, where it will give you something you need, but on fixed charges for clutch moments. In general, I think an equivalent of one of these kinds of upgrades which grants a points-cheap, game-state-expensive, limited-charge rotate could do decently to helping anything with a turret get a little more out of it.

My ideal would be an available-to-all modification at probably around 4 points, which could spend one of two non-recurring charges to make an end-phase red Rotate action. There's counterplay due to timing, since it'd telegraph arcs and move difficulty. There's limited charges and a steep stress cost, to prevent it from being used thoughtlessly. But it'd be a little nudge of limited-use action efficiency which would make anything turret a little bit more flexible with arc direction at the cost of next turns move. A quality of life upgrade, but one you can also make a mistake with.

41 minutes ago, Dismal Scientist said:

No, it needs to be a game mechanic with an easily mitigated downside, so he can take some combination of crew and upgrades that gets around the downside. Duh.

I mean, kinda. I keep wanting to qualify or quibble, it wouldn't be that easy, or it isn't as extreme as things some folks have suggested, but mostly this, if I'm being honest.

7 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

Congratulations for the result!

I can see ap5 surviving the first engagement with some careful flying, but if he's still alive after the second one you are either being blessed by dice or by being playing against fat plants rather than opponents

Why would someone ignore an easy to kill, probably action less, ps 1 with leia who enables your whole list?

Considering I always had him in the back of the my list, and he often didn't involved into the second round of combat, he was ignored. Most people went after Braylen or Wedge first.

Yeah, it’s not hard, or even unlikely, for AP-5 to be beyond range 3 in initial combat. Because he moves at I1, can coordinate at range 2, any ship he coordinates can wind up at range 3+ of him. And still be within coordinate range the next turn.

No, if AP-5 is being engaged in the first round of combat there are two likely scenarios. One is that you are taking range 3 shots at him while taking range 1 shots, some double modded, from AP’s friends. The other is that the AP-5 player screwed up.

Which can very easily mean they were stuck in the rigid thinking of flying a Rebel block.

On 5/26/2019 at 7:24 AM, svelok said:

In a classic example of robots stealing jobs technology making things easier, here is meta-wing filtered to just Atlanta.

https://meta.listfortress.com/pilots?ranking_start=2019-05-24&ranking_end=2019-05-26&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=1&format_id=&

Go build your own hot takes. Here's what did best:

Whoops - sorry, I screwed up and apparently made the system open a store event. Updated now, should be fixed in metawing soon™

29 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Whoops - sorry, I screwed up and apparently made the system open a store event. Updated now, should be fixed in metawing soon™

Mistakes like this make me wonder why I am still a Krayt Patreon.

Oct 16th-20th
Not at Game Center
River Center in St Paul
LCQ Play In Tournament

Wednesday - Corscuant / X-Wing Play In Tournament Extended
Thursday - X-Wing Day 1 A
Friday - X-Wing Day 1 B
Saturday - X-Wing Finals

Side Events:
Epic and other events through Sunday

LCQ Details:
400 Seats Available
Top 64 Qualify for Worlds

Coruscant:
Team Event - 5 Rounds

THANKS @FFG

4 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

LCQ Details:
400 Seats Available
Top 64 Qualify for Worlds

Unclaimed seats will also trickle down to top 65-X.

11 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Oct 16th-20th
Not at Game Center
River Center in St Paul
LCQ Play In Tournament

Wednesday - Corscuant / X-Wing Play In Tournament Extended
Thursday - X-Wing Day 1 A
Friday - X-Wing Day 1 B
Saturday - X-Wing Finals

Side Events:
Epic and other events through Sunday

LCQ Details:
400 Seats Available
Top 64 Qualify for Worlds

Coruscant:
Team Event - 5 Rounds

THANKS @FFG

unironic thanks ffg