9 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Final table only to get kind of diced in the last game? Confirmed and sad.

What happens when a guy who plays mostly Resistance makes a Republic squad is he get dumpstered all day. Also sad.

It felt like it was dice. As mentioned in the article, it's hard to be objective not only because it's hard to be objective all the time, but because after such a long day I had less of an ability to reflect and self analyze than normal.

There's absolutely stuff that my opponent may have done very cleverly that I missed, or things that I did very stupidly, that I didn't realize that could have shifted things in ways I never registered.

Just now, Biophysical said:

It felt like it was dice. As mentioned in the article, it's hard to be objective not only because it's hard to be objective all the time, but because after such a long day I had less of an ability to reflect and self analyze than normal.

There's absolutely stuff that my opponent may have done very cleverly that I missed, or things that I did very stupidly, that I didn't realize that could have shifted things in ways I never registered.

I was getting text updates from @Chewbobca on the way home. Quotes were, "Getting diced massively." "opponent slightly above average and his are god awful".

Stupid dice game.

4 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I was getting text updates from @Chewbobca on the way home. Quotes were, "Getting diced massively." "opponent slightly above average and his are god awful".

Stupid dice game.

Lol, he's biased.

19 hours ago, Brunas said:

That tournament Jesus Christ. Ben was so disappointed in me and my mov...

Ah you think round timer is your ally? You merely adopted the clock. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see a complete game until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but regen!

Bane quote, awesome.

I think those Jedi/torrent lists kind of have terrible MOV, don't they? I know the double Jedi does...have a regen Jedi alive and just not get shot (which doesn't actually mean running).

2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

https://starfightermafia.blogspot.com/2019/05/article-11-starfighter-mafia-goes-to.html

This is what happens when a guy who mostly plays Imperials makes a Rebel squad.

Fun write up. I think its worth re-stating so everyone hears it, Luke is solid and also highly entertaining to fly. Also S-Foils are fun to and actually useful. Your allowed to go fast and re-position with an x-wing. You don't have to just 1 forward.

Random unrelated Top 40 Pilot Rankings since Beginning of Meta-Wing List Fortress Time. Obviously based on pt costs at the time of whenever it was good. But still neat to look at.

1. Redline
2. Whisper
3. Sigma Squadron Ace
4. Braylen Stramm
5. Palob Godalhi
6. Wedge Antilles
7. Soontir Fel
8. Deathrain
9. Jakku Gunrunner
10. Cassian Andor
11. L'ulo L'ampar
12. Boba Fett
13. Dart Vader
14. Partisan Renegade
15. Tallissan Lintra
16. Drea Renthal
17. Scimitar Squadron Pilot
18. L3-37
19. Iden Versio
20. Wampa
21. Academy Pilot
22. Lieutenant Tavson
23. Biggs Darklighter
24. Ten Numb
25. Grey Squadron Bomber
26. 4-LOM
27. Gideon Hask
28. Fenn Rau
29. Howlrunner
30. Dutch Vander
31. Imdaar Test Pilot
32. Captain Kagi
33. Luke Skywalker
34. Greer Sonnel
35. Major Vermiel
36. Captain Jonus
37. Blue Squadron Pilot
38. Blue Squadron Scout
39. Nien Nunb
40. Kavil

Luke, Wedge, and Thane all in the Top 50.

Have we started screaming into the void about double infiltrators yet, or is that considered fair in comparison to Fat Han?

That's one disadvantage of 7 factions: cross faction comparisons need to be huge by now. Eg, no Republic or Separatists in top40 (right? i don't see one)

9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's one disadvantage of 7 factions: cross faction comparisons need to be huge by now. Eg, no Republic or Separatists in top40 (right? i don't see one)

Anakin is in the Top 50 if that means anything. Im not sure how useful the historical rankings are really. Fun to look at though.

I was looking at it mainly because I wanted to see where Luke and Braylen ranked all time.

3 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

Have we started screaming into the void about double infiltrators yet, or is that considered fair in comparison to Fat Han?

I'm kind of baffled how they're doing any good. Someone please explain it to me. How does an ace list not just avoid those arcs?

1 minute ago, gennataos said:

I'm kind of baffled how they're doing any good. Someone please explain it to me. How does an ace list not just avoid those arcs?

Yeah, me too. Doesn't seem problematic to me.

9 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I'm kind of baffled how they're doing any good. Someone please explain it to me. How does an ace list not just avoid those arcs?

I suspect its a combination of Tavson Syndrome & these two things.

18 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Fun write up. I think its worth re-stating so everyone hears it, Luke is solid and also highly entertaining to fly. Also S-Foils are fun to and actually useful. Your allowed to go fast and re-position with an x-wing. You don't have to just 1 forward.

Random unrelated Top 40 Pilot Rankings since Beginning of Meta-Wing List Fortress Time. Obviously based on pt costs at the time of whenever it was good. But still neat to look at.

1. Redline
2. Whisper
3. Sigma Squadron Ace
4. Braylen Stramm
5. Palob Godalhi
6. Wedge Antilles
7. Soontir Fel
8. Deathrain
9. Jakku Gunrunner
10. Cassian Andor
11. L'ulo L'ampar
12. Boba Fett
13. Dart Vader
14. Partisan Renegade
15. Tallissan Lintra
16. Drea Renthal
17. Scimitar Squadron Pilot
18. L3-37
19. Iden Versio
20. Wampa
21. Academy Pilot
22. Lieutenant Tavson
23. Biggs Darklighter
24. Ten Numb
25. Grey Squadron Bomber
26. 4-LOM
27. Gideon Hask
28. Fenn Rau
29. Howlrunner
30. Dutch Vander
31. Imdaar Test Pilot
32. Captain Kagi
33. Luke Skywalker
34. Greer Sonnel
35. Major Vermiel
36. Captain Jonus
37. Blue Squadron Pilot
38. Blue Squadron Scout
39. Nien Nunb
40. Kavil

This is interesting, but it does make little to no sense when we look at the meta during different updates and releases; or perhaps it's a lack of tea?

...yeah, @Boom Owl is smart, and I have had far too little tea as of yet.

13 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

Have we started screaming into the void about double infiltrators yet, or is that considered fair in comparison to Fat Han?

Is it unfair?

It's bad that the only viable list CIS has is also its least thematic list possible, but that doesn't mean anything for playing against it.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I get the force as a "reason", but don't get the torps. Maybe it's the stuff I play, but an I3 and an I5 on forward-facing arcs....those are easy arcs to avoid. Plus, they take damage and keep it.

8 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I get the force as a "reason", but don't get the torps. Maybe it's the stuff I play, but an I3 and an I5 on forward-facing arcs....those are easy arcs to avoid. Plus, they take damage and keep it.

They can at least carve something out of a list early followed by cloak shenanigans. Seems like a useful list against Rebel Beef. Maul's pilot ability is useful for punishing whatever combination of ships opts out of Dooku's arc.

Honestly though I think it really boils down to people volunteering to be in both arcs more often then is necessary.

20 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

Have we started screaming into the void about double infiltrators yet, or is that considered fair in comparison to Fat Han?

I'll add to this one as well, simply because I've played against double infiltrators a few times now.

1. I will not dismiss this list. It can be quite potent in the correct hands
   • The dial is great, allowing these ships to be surprisingly maneuverable
   • It's got a fair amount of health, topped up with plenty of force tokens
   • For the important first couple of rounds of combat is shooting 3 triple red attacks, or more if allowed to get range 1.
   • It has a couple of tricks, Dooku in particular with his token removal abilities...
2. It's not without weaknesses however, pretty big ones that leave it vulnerable if not played well
   • Large base - very easy to score bullseye abilities, block, and catch in arc while dodging theirs
   • Maul is the heavy hitter here - and if they haven't played it well, the only hitter. If Dooku is cloaked at the beginning of firing and you have shots on Maul, ignore Dooku. Seriously, he isn't worth it.
   • Once Maul is gone the list is seriously underpowered

Lower ship counts can probably run into trouble, and the ship counts are trending downward, but this pair is not an S-tier level list let alone being something I'm ready to rage against.

9 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

It's not without weaknesses however, pretty big ones that leave it vulnerable if not played well

• Large base - very easy to score bullseye abilities, block, and catch in arc while dodging theirs
•  Maul is the heavy hitter here - and if they haven't played it well, the only hitter. If Dooku is cloaked at the beginning of firing and you have shots on Maul, ignore Dooku. Seriously, he isn't worth it.
• Once Maul is gone the list is seriously underpowered

I'd like to add that once Maul is off the table, if Dooku is cloaked during the Engagement Phase and you have a ship in his arc don't shoot him unless it'll result in him not having force to use on his attack or to re-cloak or you're Engaging with a ship of lower initiative than him for that Engagement Phase.

24 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Honestly though I think it really boils down to people volunteering to be in both arcs more often then is necessary.

Yeah, I think this is it.

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

I'd like to add that once Maul is off the table, if Dooku is cloaked during the Engagement Phase and you have a ship in his arc don't shoot him unless it'll result in him not having force to use on his attack or to re-cloak or you're Engaging with a ship of lower initiative than him for that Engagement Phase.

I made this mistake unthinkingly... had multiple shots on a cloaked Dooku, burned some damage through, my last shot was with Biggs who also shoots before Dooku.... I should have checked my fire and just let Dooku remain cloaked. I got greedy with four dice (despite having no mods) and suffered the consequences. If he's remaining cloaked through multiple shots (which is probably the correct call with that many triple red shots) skip fire on the last one if he's still cloaked.

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

Bane quote, awesome.

I think those Jedi/torrent lists kind of have terrible MOV, don't they? I know the double Jedi does...have a regen Jedi alive and just not get shot (which doesn't actually mean running).

yeah, at 6-0 multiple 4-2 players had better mov than me. Ben got tabled one game, went 4-2 overall, and still had higher mov

1 hour ago, Dreadai said:

Have we started screaming into the void about double infiltrators yet, or is that considered fair in comparison to Fat Han?

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

I'm kind of baffled how they're doing any good. Someone please explain it to me. How does an ace list not just avoid those arcs?

Palp crew on Maul with unlimited force is just rebel captive every turn.

30 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Yeah, I think this is it.

This is not it. I think there's a fundamental missing understanding of how this list works.

I know people are super unfamiliar with the giant mess of stupid combo wing, but...

Dooku rolls around cloaked dropping DRK droids setting up unavoidable locks before any engagement. If you shoot him, he can just decloak after the last shot and dump a double modded proton torp into you, followed by a recloak. Meanwhile, Maul is shooting twice a turn with unlimited force, then just 5king over you while you're stressed and doing it all over again. Double infiltrators has more or less a bye vs any ace heavy list, rebel leia lists should do fine against them but most people are dumb and try to kill Dooku first and just lose because it turns out 3 agility glitterstim is a pretty good strategy. Throwing my entire list (2x 7b 2x v19) into maul, I was able to do a grand total of 5 damage before only anakin was left. He sure was good at never being in arc, but it doesn't matter because you can't hurt dooku just running around jamming you constantly, and shooting maul and getting stressed is a deathtrap. Remember trying to deal with hera on ghosts?

This weekend I watched a couple of duncans games because they were next to mine - no one had any idea what to do against it. As far as I know Steve (finals) and I were the only ones that actually had the right strategy, but ace lists just can't deal with palpatine + hate.

TL;DR

Can't kill Dooku first - don't bother trying

Maul is extremely tanky, and can more or less guarantee engagements at range 1-2 so your whole list is going to be stressed. You might get half of him in an opening salvo, but in return you're eating two proton torps and presumably another double modded shot from maul, at which point he still has full force, can easily 5k or 2 sloop behind you, and you're stressed facing the wrong direction.

Just a showerthought/question for those interested:

Would it be interesting to see how many points are invested in i5-i6 pilots per list?

If yes, does it make sense to treat the bid as part of that point investment? For example, 76pt Vader in a 190pt list is treated as 86pt Vader.

I think it does, but curious about opinions

9 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Maul is extremely tanky, and can more or less guarantee engagements at range 1-2 so your whole list is going to be stressed. You might get half of him in an opening salvo, but in return you're eating two proton torps and presumably another double modded shot from maul, at which point he still has full force, can easily 5k or 2 sloop behind you, and you're stressed facing the wrong direction.

I get this, but what if you're not straight lines up on Maul? What if you're coming from multiple angles so that you're not K-turning en-masse behind him? You've basically described a squad that opted into a direct joust, lined up.

40 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I made this mistake unthinkingly... had multiple shots on a cloaked Dooku, burned some damage through, my last shot was with Biggs who also shoots before Dooku.... I should have checked my fire and just let Dooku remain cloaked. I got greedy with four dice (despite having no mods) and suffered the consequences. If he's remaining cloaked through multiple shots (which is probably the correct call with that many triple red shots) skip fire on the last one if he's still cloaked.

I was running Double Scimitar and Grievous for a while and my experience was that the list absolutely destroyed people who didn’t know the basic Dooku approach you outlined above, and struggled against players who understood Dooku and when not to shoot him.

I think Double Scimitar lists demolish new players, but if it became more mainstream, the counterplay book for it would become widespread enough to keep it from winning tournaments (but probably not keep it out of cuts). The window for this might already be closing now that it’s won an HS Trial.

53 minutes ago, Brunas said:

This is not it. I think there's a fundamental missing understanding of how this list works.



I know people are super unfamiliar with the giant mess of stupid combo wing, but...

Dooku rolls around cloaked dropping DRK droids setting up unavoidable locks before any engagement. If you shoot him, he can just decloak after the last shot and dump a double modded proton torp into you, followed by a recloak. Meanwhile, Maul is shooting twice a turn with unlimited force, then just 5king over you while you're stressed and doing it all over again. Double infiltrators has more or less a bye vs any ace heavy list, rebel leia lists should do fine against them but most people are dumb and try to kill Dooku first and just lose because it turns out 3 agility glitterstim is a pretty good strategy. Throwing my entire list (2x 7b 2x v19) into maul, I was able to do a grand total of 5 damage before only anakin was left. He sure was good at never being in arc, but it doesn't matter because you can't hurt dooku just running around jamming you constantly, and shooting maul and getting stressed is a deathtrap. Remember trying to deal with hera on ghosts?



This weekend I watched a couple of duncans games because they were next to mine - no one had any idea what to do against it. As far as I know Steve (finals) and I were the only ones that actually had the right strategy, but ace lists just can't deal with palpatine + hate.



TL;DR

Can't kill Dooku first - don't bother trying

 Maul is extremely tanky, and can more or less guarantee engagements at range 1-2 so your whole list is going to be stressed. You might get half of him in an opening salvo, but in return you're eating two proton torps and presumably another double modded shot from maul, at which point he still has full force, can easily 5k or 2 sloop behind you, and you're stressed facing the wrong direction.

Content?

You know what really messes up Maul? A TIE swarm. With Howlrunner, and crack shot. Oh wait, nobody brings that... Must have been a points change somewhere I missed...