If Resistance was bustedly strong, it'd be easy to play. From my experiences playing against them, when friends have dipped their casual toe in there, it is not easy at all. It took much meddling and testing for the 2 Resi long termers to get their list to a point they were happy with. A process I rather enjoyed helping along

The people you're seeing who are kicking *** with Res, have had to put a lot of time into them to get there.

Stupid cheap L'ulo and some Optics certainly helps pep things up a bunch though.

7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Tripsilon wasn't being flown enmass either iirc. That didn't change that the upgrade combo that enabled it was broken as ****.

Did we get 12 large events with 599 lists for them? Not that I know of.

edit: actually that, too, can be tested. If there was a higher % for tripsilons despite the higher social stigma then it would strongly support my point

Just now, player3010587 said:

I saw it on reddit in reference to the French HST that happened before the whole wave of the rest of Europe's/Australia's/United State's. I think he lost a game in Swiss, but that was his only weekend loss, obviously. It is a tad of a strange list.

https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v6!s=200!259:,,98,113,:;259:,,98,113,:;259:,,98,113,:;259:,,98,113,:;262:125,,:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Thanks!

Cluster Missiles seem like a good meta choice, and rear-arc is STRONK. Rebels and Imperials tend to be fairly high ship count lists these days, and Resistance has some RZ-2 spam (not as much as folks think they have, but still). As ship count goes up, getting clusters seems potentially quite nice.

I have no idea about Marksmanship on Scorch, but hey. It worked.

//

To the end of strong rear arcs... I guess I wouldn't mind seeing TIE/sfs go up a bit in base price, so long as that cost also comes out of the gunner. With a gunner, they seem pretty fairly priced compared to ARCs and X-Wings. But the non-gunner versions seem like they might be a bit too cheap. If they all went up +2 points, SF Gunner down to 8 from 10, that'd kinda make sense to me.

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

Curious - if it's not emotional, which seems to be quite thick coming across the text here, then have you been keeping data? I know a couple of Heroic users over here that keep stats on the number of times it triggers vs how often it's actually good. The results are not exactly screaming points change. You might get a game where it triggers four times (across the entirety of the list) and it helps you big... but the next match you might get ONE trigger.

I have concerns regarding the A-Wing, but I certainly do not have concerns about Heroic. I've used it, currently using it in a Vassal tournament, but don't plan to make it a card I'll be using often.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Yes, because the data is there.

As always, it's not prescriptive in any form. But people in this very thread demonstrate why it is very valuable to dismiss some feelings that have no factual basis.

But most importantly, it is relatively rare to get so many lists in such a short time frame. That in itself is interesting.

Lastly, why not? It's not like you have to anything but choose whether to look at it or ignore it.

My point is that Lulo is the problem, not the RZ2 in general. You keep emphasizing the 5A. Of course you should then remove the known factor Lulo to demonstrate that the rest, too, is unfair.

The problems with A-Wings, currently is how much you can take at their current point cost. I seem to not be making this as clear as I would like to be, but yes, the issue is that you can take named, High IV generics with the tools for dodging arcs (inb4 "not an arc-dodger") in addition to having 5 bodies that all have optics and heroic. That is the issue. The list really needs to have its points raised up, by at least 10 or more, just so that you are forced to make list-building choices that aren't "take literally everything good and count to 200".

1 minute ago, ThinkingB said:

High IV generics with the tools for dodging arcs (inb4 "not an arc-dodger") in addition to having 5 bodies that all have optics and heroic. That is the issue.

So 5 generics or zari or greer are fine then?

4 minutes ago, ThinkingB said:

The list really needs to have its points raised up, by at least 10 or more...

Ok... so, cutting through a bit here so I could be wrong, but ultimately it seems to me you're saying that the RZ-2 is about 2 points undercosted.

6 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Ok... so, cutting through a bit here so I could be wrong, but ultimately it seems to me you're saying that the RZ-2 is about 2 points undercosted.

I would say the base chassis is a 1 point undercosted (*maybe*) and Tali/Lulo are 2 points undercosted. Because of how tight points get, even a small adjustment is huge for 5A. Trick shot going up to 2 pretty much only hurt my 5A lists.

6 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Ok... so, cutting through a bit here so I could be wrong, but ultimately it seems to me you're saying that the RZ-2 is about 2 points undercosted.

And just for reference, if you go back a page or two, you'll see I said the generic should go up 1 point, the named 2.
IMO Lulo and Tallie should get more than 2, Greer and Zari could go up 1 or stay where they are.

But funny how horribly unfair they are at 1-2 points too low.

Also Sensor Jammer is back on the table?

RZ2s are intensely undercosted... compared to other 2-dice ships in their point range. That doesn't mean they're universally undercosted (I expect they're slightly cheaper than is fair, but not by any really important degree), it means that all those other 2 dice ships are badly overcosted. It's not the RZ2's fault that it's the only filler that's good on it's own.

6 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

I would say the base chassis is a 1 point undercosted (*maybe*) and Tali/Lulo are 2 points undercosted. Because of how tight points get, even a small adjustment is huge for 5A. Trick shot going up to 2 pretty much only hurt my 5A lists.

I *feel* like the RZ2 is undercosted, but I certainly haven't spent time trying to math it out. I'm certainly not about to defend my position since I clearly don't know what I'm talking about. Comparing to similarly costed ships the RZ2 looks very good though...

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

I *feel* like the RZ2 is undercosted, but I certainly haven't spent time trying to math it out. I'm certainly not about to defend my position since I clearly don't know what I'm talking about. Comparing to similarly costed ships the RZ2 looks very good though...

Yeah I don't quite have formulas to figure out their value (there was a google doc recently where someone tried their hand at that), but I know in practice they aren't that out of line. They've reached critical mass into very good territory, but the slightest adjustments will knock them down a bit. Heck, they've already been nerfed already, just they weren't even close to popular (in mass) before it happened.

14 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

I would say the base chassis is a 1 point undercosted (*maybe*) and Tali/Lulo are 2 points undercosted. Because of how tight points get, even a small adjustment is huge for 5A. Trick shot going up to 2 pretty much only hurt my 5A lists.

Heroic to 2, Trick Shot to 3, both generics up by one?

The aces are harder to price, especially L'ulo (b/c red dice are hard to price) but even at 42 points he seems pretty good? Maybe not "most common pilot in faction" good, and maybe it's in "this kills the 5x RZ-2s list" territory, but if July brings Falcons/Starfortresses down further (or: in June the Reinforcing Escape Craft Thing is good and/or makes the large bases good) that seems fine? I don't think its like anybody is clamoring for an emergency points change, so internal faction balance is whatever.

Like @Biophysical alluded to, making the other ships in the same current points band as the RZ-2 good would mean a really across-the-board systematic tweak (in the vein of "increase every printed 3-dice primary ship in the game's cost") , which, hey, maybe someday.

I will fully admit I only care about RZ-2 point costs because I don't have wave 3 point costs to care about instead.

1 minute ago, svelok said:

Heroic to 2,

I won't miss Heroic when it's never seen again...

8 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

RZ2s are intensely undercosted... compared to other 2-dice ships in their point range. That doesn't mean they're universally undercosted (I expect they're slightly cheaper than is fair, but not by any really important degree), it means that all those other 2 dice ships are badly overcosted. It's not the RZ2's fault that it's the only filler that's good on it's own.

I feel basically the same.

resistanxe a wings feel a little undercosted, but moreso that just a lot of other stuff feels overcosted.

It's still mostly just the two i5's. You can fit them in and still leave room for Poe + another t70 and have effectively an i6, 2 I5's and a cheap hammer in the way of Bastian. They just gain a good initiative advantage over a lot of other stuff in their price range and with their built in action economy and ability to rotate with good board knowledge they can be very useful for a long part of the game. I agree that if Lulo didn't exist most of this argument wouldn't be happening. It's just a wickedly efficient and effortlessly functional ship for 38-40 points.

2 minutes ago, svelok said:

Heroic to 2, Trick Shot to 3, both generics up by one?

The aces are harder to price, especially L'ulo (b/c red dice are hard to price) but even at 42 points he seems pretty good? Maybe not "most common pilot in faction" good, and maybe it's in "this kills the 5x RZ-2s list" territory, but if July brings Falcons/Starfortresses down further (or: in June the Reinforcing Escape Craft Thing is good and/or makes the large bases good) that seems fine? I don't think its like anybody is clamoring for an emergency points change, so internal faction balance is whatever.

Like @Biophysical alluded to, making the other ships in the same current points band as the RZ-2 good would mean a really across-the-board systematic tweak (in the vein of "increase every printed 3-dice primary ship in the game's cost") , which, hey, maybe someday.

I will fully admit I only care about RZ-2 point costs because I don't have wave 3 point costs to care about instead.

I wouldn't touch Heroic, but I could see Trick Shot going up 1 more, but I would then rein in the chassis increase to 1 point. Lulo with Trick for 42 points seems appropriate IMO.

10 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I won't miss Heroic when it's never seen again...

Basically? I mean, it's like the most common non-free upgrade in the game right now, probably responsible for a non-zero percentage of the "glue" accusations thrown at Resistance, its good enough at one point that leaving the slot empty is very rarely a real decision (vs eg, Trick Shot at one point more or Marksmanship at less good) on Resistance builds.

Also I remember being told by a lot of people it would never see play at one point, and worst case it's not-meta for one 6 month season, whatever.

In the new points world FFG can just double the points to 400 (800! 1600!) whenever they want to, so hey, 1.5 point Heroic sounds fine.

Lulo's ability should have been on an I3 or I4 pilot at most. Greer has a great ability gated by initiative 4, Pure Sabaac same thing. It's a design mistake that is harder to fix with points because the window where Lulo is costed appropriately is tiny compared to if you gave an ability that good to a lower init pilot.

Heroic is solid at 1 point, unplayable at 2, and would be an interesting decision at 1.5 points.

Similarly, the RZ-2 having the blue 3 banks is a big part of the balance issue, though I'm not totally sure if they survive that being a white bank.

I've flown a few games with 5A and if you take away the time on target that the turret brings or the 2 hit semi-consistency that optics brings they don't really stand a chance against a lot of current hyperspace lists.

I'd also be willing to say that Rebel Alpha (Wedge/Luke/Dutch proton torpedoes) is likely more powerful than the A wing squad, I mean it was best MOV in Toronto and is hyperspace legal! Lets complain about 5A when they start winning Extended tournaments.

39 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

I would say the base chassis is a 1 point undercosted (*maybe*) and Tali/Lulo are 2 points undercosted. Because of how tight points get, even a small adjustment is huge for 5A. Trick shot going up to 2 pretty much only hurt my 5A lists.

This ^^^. I may disagree on the exact undercosting of the A-Wing, but there is no need to go overboard. Remember tugboats being a problem? Increasing their cost by only 4 pt. pretty much killed their effectiveness in competitive extended because each list that used them used at least 2. As a result, keeping 2 problematic ships in your list would increase the list by 8 pt, which now becomes a massive chunk, overshadowing any bid and then extending beyond 200. 3 tugs as an element of a control-heavy list are a dead archetype. Supposing that the A chassis goes up by a single point, that is one less heroic that the list can field per a wing. If the I5's go up 2 points, including both in a list suddenly forces you to lose 4 crack shots or a copy of advanced optics. In this minimal proposal by Scott, 5A is 7 pt more expensive. Now imagine the TIE bomber treatment of a minimal bump to most but slightly larger ones to the worse offenders, say 2 per A with the exception of 3 to Lulo. With that setup, the list spikes to 11pt more expensive. Some toys are falling off.

Scorch is probably the best FO, right? He's just 3 less than Lulo who gets-

Better health distribution

+1 Init

Rear arc

Boost

Linked boost

Dial improvements

Better upgrade bar

Now compare him to shitters like Static.

Low health generics are worst off. Why would anyone take an Omega /FO?

Finally, there is a rant for the Black Squadron Scout that I have continually.

34 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

I wouldn't touch Heroic, but I could see Trick Shot going up 1 more, but I would then rein in the chassis increase to 1 point. Lulo with Trick for 42 points seems appropriate IMO.

What other Trick Shot carrying platforms are an issue? Heroic being adjusted only affects Resistance, upping Trick Shot ripples out into the other factions. Upping Heroic by 1 and doing as Green Dragoon suggested (+1 for the generics, +2 for the limiteds) should reign it in a bit. Nerfing all factions' choices because 1 faction has a slightly problematic synergy is effectively no different than ignoring the problem.

So with regards to the Heroic effect, I've mathed it out before and it's worth about 1/5th the value of a normal reroll on an A-Wing attack or defense. On an X-Wing, it's worth about 1/3rd of a reroll on defense (and essentially nothing on offense--1/16th of a reroll). It'll depend a bit on whether you have focus, but it's pretty close to that. So on an X-Wing, Heroic's 1 point is 1/3rd the cost of Elusive. On an A-Wing, it's 1/5th the cost of Lone Wolf, or Elusive+Predator.

But.

Heroic doesn't have charges to recharge with red moves or once per turn. It doesn't have any positional requirements, and works in any arc not just bullseye. It always [rarely] works on every roll. Given that, I don't think I'd wrong to have it cost two points.

//

Trick Shot should totally go up. Adding a die is more powerful than rerolling a die, and it's probably easier to trigger than Predator. If it's easier and stronger, it ought to cost more.

//

Overall, I don't mind living in a world where Talents nowhere near as good as 1e.

7 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Scorch is probably the best FO, right? He's just 3 less than Lulo who gets-

Better health distribution

+1 Init

Rear arc

Boost

Linked boost

Dial improvements

Better upgrade bar

Now compare him to shitters like Static.

Low health generics are worst off. Why would anyone take an Omega /FO?

Finally, there is a rant for the Black Squadron Scout that I have continually.

Even the pro-RZ-2 people suggest Lulo is undercosted and all of your other points are satisfied that low-hp generics are likely overcosted across the board.

4 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

What other Trick Shot carrying platforms are an issue? Heroic being adjusted only affects Resistance, upping Trick Shot ripples out into the other factions. Upping Heroic by 1 and doing as Green Dragoon suggested (+1 for the generics, +2 for the limiteds) should reign it in a bit. Nerfing all factions' choices because 1 faction has a slightly problematic synergy is effectively no different than ignoring the problem.

Which is fair.