53 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

I don't know the answer to my question. I've had some success with ten/braylenn/Jake/Luke in hyper with 4. I don't have a sense of extended in the least. But to address your suggestion, for example, downgrading the knave to a blue squadron escort let's you upgrade the bandit to a CAZ. And a lot of my squad building adventures end with e-wings either end up downgrading them to buy a better 5th, or settling for 4.

It's not a bad call. I by no means am championing the E-Wing cause. To say they are great would be an overstatement, but I'm more just saying that the Knaves are usable.

I rate a generic e-wing as worth 6-7 over a generic x-wing? (without torps) and generic x-wings aren't currently a benchmark for "good" as-is

22 minutes ago, svelok said:

generic x-wings aren't currently a benchmark for "good" as-is

Fair.

I'd say fair.

Wholesome, even.

But then I look over at TIE/ln.....

That's wholesome.

We'll see if these new ion mods revolutionize how Empire functions... I personally hope so.

But it's bittersweet either way.

At this point, it's blatant ffg Band-Aids after the fact to keep outdated chassis interesting and competitive.

1 minute ago, Bucknife said:

Fair.

I'd say fair.

Wholesome, even.

nothing against them, 5X is a wholesome list. just eminently not the top of the meta

At what point is Corran Horn competitively viable?

13 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

At what point is Corran Horn competitively viable?

When they ditch Hyperspace as a game format.

39 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

At what point is Corran Horn competitively viable?

Going back to his 1.0 ability. Having the double tap limited to bullseye only makes him less lethal. Having the entire arc open would be great.

57 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

At what point is Corran Horn competitively viable?

My guess is when he costs less than Luke. Currently Luke is just such an easy go-to I5; he's iconic, he's force-protected, and people are super familiar with him because he's always been good and he's always been hyperspace-legal.

Once Corran is actually cheaper it becomes a choice between force for dependability and slots for flexibility. AS Daredevil R4 Corran is supposed to be fun but stupid pricy. For the same price you can get R3 Protorp Corran. More likely to be good is R3 FCS Corran which could come in cheaper than a Sense Luke if Corran dropped below Luke's price. Then he starts looking really tempting.

I honestly think Corran is close to usable though. It's Gavin Darklighter whose price is somewhat unfathomable. The ability is rather powerful, but I don't think it's 9 points of powerful, and he's otherwise identical to the I4 Rogue.

1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

At what point is Corran Horn competitively viable?

Maybe at two more points cheaper like Moser suggested? He just finally dropped to the cost of Guri, who is infinitely more an ace and has an ability that triggers nearly ever turn once the scrum starts up. Corran's ability is much harder to leverage.

1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

At what point is Corran Horn competitively viable?

at less than 64 pts, which is also less than 66pts, which is the price he had been at since jan 2019 with no adjustments

he's not that much better than thane tbh

also, probably, when he gets cheap enough that the people who try him aren't trying him in 1.0 recreation 2ship lists

Okay, semi-metaphor seems to have confused a couple. In plain English, I think Corran is unlikely to ever be "viable" competitively without a complete neutering of the core Rebel identity. Thus "When they ditch Hyperspace as a game format.", which is something I think most will agree is most likely not going to happen in 2.0.

I do find it really disheartening that this thread mostly spends its time now building extended lists.

the fort has fallen.

9 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

In plain English, I think Corran is unlikely to ever be "viable" competitively without a complete neutering of the core Rebel identity.

I dont get this. Is the idea that corn is some kind of empire-style ace that doesn't fit in rebel design?

hes basically the same as wedge, just a high init jousty thing with a bit of boost as a treat?

Corran's problem is that he needs upgrades. Luke at 62 could take proton torpedoes or other upgrades, but is an amazing deal at his base cost with built-in double mods and decent durability thanks to his ability. I don't think that Corran wants torps, however (but throwing on ion torpedoes for 5 points to punish aces/set up range 1 bullseyes seems nice). The linked action probably needs to be solved with afterburners, he wants FCS to keep consistent double mods (or predator), and he needs an astromech. The points add up quickly, and he ends up costing more than 75 points. I've seen an E-wing only r7 astromech as a concept floated around that would grant a linked calculate which seems like an interesting design space.

So yeah, he's too pricy and probably in the wrong faction for the right support, but at least my Corran/Miranda list gained some more points to work with.

3 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

At what point is Corran Horn competitively viable?

When Fat Han is good.

The most success Corran has seen in 2e is as a partner to Han, where he offers some pretty nice spike damage potential. His ability dovetails well with regen, too, so he's not terrible at protecting points. Maybe it doesn't need to be Fat Han specifically, but at least when there's a good partner in a 2-ship list.

2 hours ago, Kyle Ren said:

I do find it really disheartening that this thread mostly spends its time now building extended lists.

the fort has fallen.

That fort was always imaginary.

4 hours ago, svelok said:

probably, when he gets cheap enough that the people who try him aren't trying him in 1.0 recreation 2ship lists

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Maybe it doesn't need to be Fat Han specifically, but at least when there's a good partner in a 2-ship list.

Interesting to see two such opposite interpretations. Does Corran himself need to be fat to be "good?" I would think a cost reduction would let him function in 3-4-5-ship lists quite well. He can be the centerpiece of a list. Well, to such a degree as Poe can anyway, more or less. Not sure why he has to be the smaller of two ships to work well.

But on the other hand, Rebel large ships do seem to be coming into their own a little. I highly doubt that two-ship lists will ever be good enough to create a full archetype again, scum super-aces notwithstanding.

5 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Okay, semi-metaphor seems to have confused a couple. In plain English, I think Corran is unlikely to ever be "viable" competitively without a complete neutering of the core Rebel identity. Thus "When they ditch Hyperspace as a game format.", which is something I think most will agree is most likely not going to happen in 2.0.

I think I'm even more lost now. A few questions:

1. Why does the entire core rebel identity depend on the Hyperspace format?

2. How would ditching Hyperspace neuter the Rebel identity?

3. What's wrong with Rebels that inherently keeps Corran from functioning at any price in the Rebel faction?

4. Are you saying he will always be bad no matter how cheap they make him, or that there is no price that would be fair (for some other reason)?

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Maybe it doesn't need to be Fat Han specifically, but at least when there's a good partner in a 2-ship list.

Can I interest you in a bistan+percop dash? Now running a special at 10 points off!

5 hours ago, Kyle Ren said:

I do find it really disheartening that this thread mostly spends its time now building extended lists.

the fort has fallen.

The fort crumbled when False Worlds was announced as Extended.

"MaH sHiPs"

Sloane is wholesome, I swear.

Should Zizi be less than L'ulo?

3 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Should Zizi be less than L'ulo?

Which would you take if they were the same points? I think it depends on the rest of the list, but I’d lean Zizi. That seems telling.

Also, L’ulo fits hyperspace better than Zizi, I think.

4 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Should Zizi be less than L'ulo?

No...L’ulo should be cheaper than he currently is.

13 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Should Zizi be less than L'ulo?

One is a PS5 X Wing with a rear arc.

The other is a PS5 defensive tank.

Is having a stronger defense more valuable than a stronger offense?

If a PS3 Provocateur is good value at 41 pts shouldn't a PS5 one with rear arc be good at 48?

1 minute ago, Smikies02 said:

One is a PS5 X Wing with a rear arc.

The other is a PS5 defensive tank.

Is having a stronger defense more valuable than a stronger offense?

If a PS3 Provocateur is good value at 41 pts shouldn't a PS5 one with rear arc be good at 48?

I would put forth that L'ulo's ability has a downside that can be undesirable depending on the board state and, when using it is not appropriate, not invoking this downside means not using the ship ability. Also, unless you're slooping, which RZ2's generally don't, L'ulo needs an action to use his pilot ability, whereas Zizi can still benefit from hers even without an action.

I don't think the X-Wing community has discussed the target lock action in nearly enough depth.

I am thinking maybe instead of trying to figure out lists or ships we try to actually understand how strategy related to the target lock action works first.

Beyond the Rule of 11.