8 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

ok so in fairness it's a new ship and thus I haven't played against enough people who really fully knew what I was doing with the list to be able to tell if your take is bad or not.

that being said in all of my games with the list I've had an initial engage where Kylo basically thonkjousts and Holo is sitting range 2 behind him, which means Holo is range 4 of all the enemy ships. then the choice my opponent has next turn is to either chase Kylo (which ends poorly) or let him flank them (which is usually even worse).

I dunno... saw my first TIE/ba last weekend and killed it by doing exactly that - shooting over Kylo's shoulder and annihilating it when it had no tokens at range 3.

11 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

ok so in fairness it's a new ship and thus I haven't played against enough people who really fully knew what I was doing with the list to be able to tell if your take is bad or not.

that being said in all of my games with the list I've had an initial engage where Kylo basically thonkjousts and Holo is sitting range 2 behind him, which means Holo is range 4 of all the enemy ships. then the choice my opponent has next turn is to either chase Kylo (which ends poorly) or let him flank them (which is usually even worse).

The secret for droids was they always basically had to ignore kylo unless they had range 1 shots. Holo tossing an evade didn't really change that math.

They should be engaging, and pushing an engage, that reflects that scenario. If they're allowing the entire FO list to lolflank them, the FO list earned it.

2 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

I want to clarify that mine isn't a numerical concern, but a power level one. I don't think there will be that many Bobas or fenns, at least not at the first big HS event, but I think they start almost every game already above their opponent with good peace for the boom owl's mantra that HS can't be win on list building.

see, this is how you set goalposts. feelings over facts. I give this the chris allen post moving stamp of approval

7 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I dunno... saw my first TIE/ba last weekend and killed it by doing exactly that - shooting over Kylo's shoulder and annihilating it when it had no tokens at range 3.

sounds like the FO player messed up.

range control is a huge deal with any aces list, and yeeting tokens around just exacerbates that. Holo is a quintessential "do not have all of your aces in arc" ace.

7 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

The secret for droids was they always basically had to ignore kylo unless they had range 1 shots. Holo tossing an evade didn't really change that math.

They should be engaging, and pushing an engage, that reflects that scenario. If they're allowing the entire FO list to lolflank them, the FO list earned it.

fair. I've definitely found my opponents who had the best chance went for the barons first. Kylo by himself carries a lot of games but he will eventually die once he runs out of buddies to keep the pressure off of him.

7 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

sounds like the FO player messed up.

range control is a huge deal with any aces list, and yeeting tokens around just exacerbates that. Holo is a quintessential "do not have all of your aces in arc" ace.

I turned in unexpectedly with a group of T-65s to cover my "exposed" flank. The FO player indeed messed up his approach in assuming where I was going to press my attack (Quickdraw was coming in, but behind obstacles) and then again was over-aggressive about his chances of initiative killing my ships.

That said, I messed up late game to give him the win back, so we'll call it a draw.

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

see, this is how you set goalposts. feelings over facts. I give this the chris allen post moving stamp of approval

3 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

I don't even think ghost fenn meta is a good comparison: ghost fenn was the most common list but was far from being the best since there were plenty of stuff that hard countered it.

"Rock beats scissors every time; scissors aren't OP"

Maybe not, but you now have a game that only has three lists instead of near-infinite combinations. The problem with a meta isn't with a one-list meta, it's with a few-list meta.

I mean, except for Imperial Assault last year. That was just pathetic. More than 55% of the worlds contestants brought the exact same list! But that's neither here nor there. It got axed for a reason. X-Wing has always been better, even at its worst. That doesn't mean we can't strive for more and better though.

I think Hyperspace will be more even in general, but I also think Extended will be more diverse than Hyperspace, and far more so than people think.

My money for better meta is on Hyperspace. My money for more fun is on Extended, but that's 100% subjective anyway

4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

"Rock beats scissors every time; scissors aren't OP"

Maybe not, but you now have a game that only has three lists instead of near-infinite combinations. The problem with a meta isn't with a one-list meta, it's with a few-list meta.

I mean, except for Imperial Assault last year. That was just pathetic. More than 55% of the worlds contestants brought the exact same list! But that's neither here nor there. It got axed for a reason. X-Wing has always been better, even at its worst. That doesn't mean we can't strive for more and better though.

I think Hyperspace will be more even in general, but I also think Extended will be more diverse than Hyperspace, and far more so than people think.

My money for better meta is on Hyperspace. My money for more fun is on Extended, but that's 100% subjective anyway

legion at LVO:
Tauntuans that rek things
ATRTs that rek Tauntauns
Imp gunlines to rek them both

gunlines ended up on top

49 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

"...I messed up late game to give him the win back, so we'll call it a draw."

That is my line.

You obviously stole it.

I want it back.

10 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

"Rock beats scissors every time; scissors aren't OP"

Maybe not, but you now have a game that only has three lists instead of near-infinite combinations. The problem with a meta isn't with a one-list meta, it's with a few-list meta.

I mean, except for Imperial Assault last year. That was just pathetic. More than 55% of the worlds contestants brought the exact same list! But that's neither here nor there. It got axed for a reason. X-Wing has always been better, even at its worst. That doesn't mean we can't strive for more and better though.

I think Hyperspace will be more even in general, but I also think Extended will be more diverse than Hyperspace, and far more so than people think.

My money for better meta is on Hyperspace. My money for more fun is on Extended, but that's 100% subjective anyway

so I disagree about extended but on a technicality - the field will have more diversity but the cut will probably have less. even during oppressive metas it's been proven that players will continue to fly whatever random lists they came up with so if there's more total options there will always be more lists, even if most of those lists are bad. Extended is already essentially a "solved meta" but that won't prevent list architecture - never has in the past. that all being said, I do definitely agree that hyperspace is more balanced on the whole.

and I super agree about hard counters. A disturbingly high number of players seem to actually want hard counters in the game and it makes me really sad.

1 hour ago, Kieransi said:

ok so in fairness it's a new ship and thus I haven't played against enough people who really fully knew what I was doing with the list to be able to tell if your take is bad or not.

that being said in all of my games with the list I've had an initial engage where Kylo basically thonkjousts and Holo is sitting range 2 behind him, which means Holo is range 4 of all the enemy ships. then the choice my opponent has next turn is to either chase Kylo (which ends poorly) or let him flank them (which is usually even worse).

If you have Kylo Yolojousting, and Holo R4 from the enemy ships, then you have 1 modless shot at a your opponent while your opponent has all of the shots at Kylo. You do 1 damage to a low profile ship, but he does 2 damage to Kylo. Then it takes 2 turns for Kylo to get back into the fight, while Holo is now primed for being pounced on. Depending on positioning, you can threaten both of them at the same time as well. Holo not being able to boost and have a green token makes him an easy target.

I'm not sold on the /BA.

23 hours ago, svelok said:

I am happy. Happy about Hyperspace.

3 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

That is my line.

You obviously stole it.

I want it back.

I admit nothing, but you can have it back.

Now where's my tea?

2 hours ago, Smikies02 said:

Just bring gas clouds.

Doesn't strictly improve your defense anymore. Strain hurts even a force ship.

5 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Extended is already essentially a "solved meta"

This makes no sense to me. There have been extremely few extended events since the frankly enormous points upset.

It seems like the opposite of solved to me. Sure last season's winners were largely unaffected. But that does not mean that they will be this season's winners (buffs work just as well as nerfs).

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Doesn't strictly improve your defense anymore. Strain hurts even a force ship.

If you hit it. You still have the option of going around them.

4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

This makes no sense to me. There have been extremely few extended events since the frankly enormous points upset.

It seems like the opposite of solved to me. Sure last season's winners were largely unaffected. But that does not mean that they will be this season's winners (buffs work just as well as nerfs).

so far they are, we'll see if that changes. personally I don't think decreasing the costs of some random things that were already bad by one or two points really does much.

note that solved meta doesn't mean that certain lists can never win or never make cuts, it means that any archetype has an obvious "best" choice and everything else is an uphill battle. to me the LVO top 8 feels very predictable and looks pretty much just like extended cuts did last season.

17 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

so far they are, we'll see if that changes. personally I don't think decreasing the costs of some random things that were already bad by one or two points really does much.

Multiply that across a lot of ships in a list and it adds up fast, idk. 2-pt drops to 5 ships comes out to 10 extra points for bid and toys, and generally more arcs in the game, making aces' jobs a lot harder. Also keep in mind that some generics and even named pilots went down by much more than that. I highly doubt that 7B Jedi and Imp Aces will still have the same success rates in general against what's available now, but what do I know?

17 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

note that solved meta doesn't mean that certain lists can never win or never make cuts, it means that any archetype has an obvious "best" choice and everything else is an uphill battle. to me the LVO top 8 feels very predictable and looks pretty much just like extended cuts did last season.

I don't pretend to be an authority, but do remember that at the start of last season everyone was still flying variations of Rebel Beef. At the start of the previous season a lot of people were still trying to make Soontir/Redline/Whisper work. People adapt to changes pretty slowly in general, and the LVO was very, very shortly after the points were changed, meaning there wasn't even time to practice with new lists. I think a lot of the power lists from Hyperspace will trickle out into Extended, and Extended will show up plenty of new things too once people get a feel for the new points. Almost all low-initiative pilots got a buff. Almost all large-base ships got a buff. Everyone's so fixated on the huge changes to the Hyperspace banlist that the frankly biggest points change in second edition has gone seemingly unnoticed.

I don't know. Maybe I just really want to believe in extended because I enjoy my generic interceptors, Ghost, and Shadow Caster. But all of those got buffs too. So many buffs happened. I really have a whole lot of trouble believing that those buffs will do nothing to change the meta.

Edit: As an example, Soontir is down to 51st place in Hyperspace, whereas he's still at 11th in Extended. It's not because he got worse; he wasn't nerfed at all in hyperspace (he lost Predator, but most take TC lately anyway). I think it's mainly because it's harder to dodge that many arcs than it used to be, but Extended hasn't figured that out yet and is still busy flying yesterday's ace lists.

25 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I am happy. Happy about Hyperspace.

same team

29 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

A disturbingly high number of players seem to actually want hard counters in the game and it makes me really sad.

Q4T and same...

49 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Doesn't strictly improve your defense anymore. Strain hurts even a force ship.

Why are you hitting the gas clouds?

33 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Edit: As an example, Soontir is down to 51st place in Hyperspace, whereas he's still at 11th in Extended. It's not because he got worse; he wasn't nerfed at all in hyperspace (he lost Predator, but most take TC lately anyway). I think it's mainly because it's harder to dodge that many arcs than it used to be, but Extended hasn't figured that out yet and is still busy flying yesterday's ace lists.

I think he's down to 51st because he cant be played in hyperspace

32 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I don't know. Maybe I just really want to believe in extended because I enjoy my generic interceptors, Ghost, and Shadow Caster. But all of those got buffs too. So many buffs happened. I really have a whole lot of trouble believing that those buffs will do nothing to change the meta.

Edit: As an example, Soontir is down to 51st place in Hyperspace, whereas he's still at 11th in Extended. It's not because he got worse; he wasn't nerfed at all in hyperspace (he lost Predator, but most take TC lately anyway). I think it's mainly because it's harder to dodge that many arcs than it used to be, but Extended hasn't figured that out yet and is still busy flying yesterday's ace lists.

Wait Soontir isn't even in Hyperspace anymore.

The meta will shift a little over time too, but its really hard to start to outfit vs the meta right now because you have aces, aces plus miniswarm, full swarm, ace-support-generic wingmen as all viable templates to choose from. The only thing missing is large base stuff right now, and I think those got hit pretty hard with the increase in ship count.

I think Extended is just fine, but list building phase is the favorite phase for a lot of players and that isn't nearly as fun right now.

anyone wanna share some hot new tech for Boba with Slave 1?

12 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

anyone wanna share some hot new tech for Boba with Slave 1?

I hear Fenn Rau at 68 points is a pretty good upgrade for him.