1 hour ago, Darth Seridur said:

Wasnt that also the Rebel beef meta, where they got to dominate in HS, as well as Extended. (Cassian with 2pt Leia, Braylen, Wedge, Ten)

And Inert Han...🙄

Edit: and drea scurgg?

[I disliked quad Phantoms too, just trying to remember what the top lists were.]

From my recollection, Rebel beef started coming to the forefront as quad phantoms were starting to fade. There was definitely overlap, though.

I didn't really realize Drea Scurggs were so meta-defining/

It was a pretty crappy meta timeline for extended.

23 minutes ago, gennataos said:

From my recollection, Rebel beef started coming to the forefront as quad phantoms were starting to fade. There was definitely overlap, though.

I didn't really realize Drea Scurggs were so meta-defining/

It was a pretty crappy meta timeline for extended.

season one had some weird character arcs where everybody was mainly focused on hyperspace events for a while in the middle, and where extended was divided into two nearly unrecognizable metas if you compared the cut versus swiss, due to situations like "6/100 lists are quad phantoms and all 6 made top 16 cut"

1 hour ago, Darth Seridur said:

Wasnt that also the Rebel beef meta, where they got to dominate in HS, as well as Extended. (Cassian with 2pt Leia, Braylen, Wedge, Ten)

And Inert Han...🙄

Edit: and drea scurgg?

[I disliked quad Phantoms too, just trying to remember what the top lists were.]

I don’t believe Inert Han dominated standings as much as dominated discussions about how unfun it was.

5 hours ago, Boreas Mun said:

For additional 2 points Upsilon has 1 dice more attack, coordination and reinforce. Slaver has true 180 degree arc, reinforce and is cheaper by 2 points.

All of these ships are bad and StarFortress is the worst.

Is this a subjective “I feel Upsilons are bad,” or are you looking at something the rest of us aren’t?

7 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

I don’t believe Inert Han dominated standings as much as dominated discussions about how unfun it was.

like phantoms, it showed up 1-2x times per event but yet consistently made top 1-4 (in the hands of different players)

everybody was fussing about the UK SoS at the time, but it was final table of adepticon (iirc?) right before that, and final table of another 2-3 SoS after as well (iirc?)

21 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

Oh, there's no way you meant to turn off the board here when the rest of your ships were going in the other direction

If all of your ships choose to fly off the board, though, it's fine.

7 hours ago, Boreas Mun said:

StarFortress doesn't have 270 degree arc. It has 90 degree normal attack and 2x90 degree 2 dice attack,

uh huh.

x=90+2(90)

7 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

uh huh.

x=90+2x90

It's a useful nitpick, though. I'm a huge TIE/sf fan. Extra 2-dice firing arcs are really handy. But not at Starfortress prices.

48 minutes ago, svelok said:

like phantoms, it showed up 1-2x times per event but yet consistently made top 1-4 (in the hands of different players)

everybody was fussing about the UK SoS at the time, but it was final table of adepticon (iirc?) right before that, and final table of another 2-3 SoS after as well (iirc?)

Who is Nathan eide?

Who is @catachanninja?

11 hours ago, Cerebrawl said:

Most slots aren't really worth points, yet we're paying for them. They only see use in extreme edge cases(eg: Aces High). One problem is that most upgrades are severely overcosted, and by most I mean over 90%, and it's just better to have another ship in most cases, or spend the points on better pilot abilities and initiative. The caveat is that some upgrades would become obscenely good for a particular pilot if they were costed fairly for most everyone else.

When you get to statements like "90% of upgrades are overcosted", aren't you really making different statements on what the state of the game ought to be? Like, you're on the opinion that every upgrade slot should be filled, and that "no upgrade" shouldn't be the correct answer. What I mean is, let's dive through talents really quick.

If you asked me personally to categorize them:

Under-costed:

• Dedicated
• Treacherous
• Composure
• Crack Shot
• Ensnare

"Correctly" Priced:

• Daredevil
• Elusive
• Intimidation
• Juke
• Lone Wolf
• Marksmanship
• Predator
• Saturation Salvo
• Snap Shot
• Swarm Tactics
• Trick Shot
• Heroic
• Fanatical
• Fearless
• Ruthless
• Debris Gambit
• Selfless
• Gravitic Deflection

Over-priced:

• Expert Handling
• Outmaneuver
• Squad Leader

Basically where I'm getting at is: "Overpriced" upgrades at least for the 26 talents, I'd only label 3 of them as "bad/overpriced". For 90% of talents to be overpriced, that number would need to be in the ballpark of 22/23. Or maybe you disagree on these cards being under/overpriced?

9 hours ago, punkUser said:

IIRC there's some edge cases that @Brunas just decided to ignore With reinforce the logic of how many and what tokens to spend actually gets a lot more complicated because there are sometimes/often two defense die results that both give you equivalent damage (i.e. 1 remaining hit after canceling or 2). With more reinforce tokens the number of cases that need to be searched gets even higher although there may be some opportunities for optimization. With crack shot it all goes to **** even more

I believe at launch in 2.0 there was no way to get two reinforce tokens on the same ship so it seemed wisest to just dodge this whole issue. If it becomes something commonly seen we can of course reconsider...

Ignoring edge cases is my middle name

11 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:

Is this a subjective “I feel Upsilons are bad,” or are you looking at something the rest of us aren’t?

Does anyone think upsilons aren't bad?

22 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Does anyone think upsilons aren't bad?

Hey now lets not be ridiculous.
It feels bad when hyper mobile token stacked aces opt into a joust with a 4 dice repositionless forward arc only ship and lose exactly one trade.
Thats not what my Force Users signed up for.

The real heroes/victims here are the s.

22 minutes ago, Brunas said:

When you get to statements like "90% of upgrades are overcosted", aren't you really making different statements on what the state of the game ought to be? Like, you're on the opinion that every upgrade slot should be filled, and that "no upgrade" shouldn't be the correct answer. What I mean is, let's dive through talents really quick.

If you asked me personally to categorize them:

Under-costed:

• Dedicated
• Treacherous
• Composure
• Crack Shot
• Ensnare

"Correctly" Priced:

• Daredevil
• Elusive
• Intimidation
• Juke
• Lone Wolf
• Marksmanship
• Predator
• Saturation Salvo
• Snap Shot
• Swarm Tactics
• Trick Shot
• Heroic
• Fanatical
• Fearless
• Ruthless
• Debris Gambit
• Selfless
• Gravitic Deflection

Over-priced:

• Expert Handling
• Outmaneuver
• Squad Leader

Basically where I'm getting at is: "Overpriced" upgrades at least for the 26 talents, I'd only label 3 of them as "bad/overpriced". For 90% of talents to be overpriced, that number would need to be in the ballpark of 22/23. Or maybe you disagree on these cards being under/overpriced?

Ignoring edge cases is my middle name

Does anyone think upsilons aren't bad?

I'm not saying every slot should be filled, but "empty slot" is usually the best pick for the vast majority of them. 90% was a bit hyperbolic, but it's more than half.

Are you saying talents are the only upgrades? Often it's the only slot worth filling. I think some of the "correctly" priced upgrades are overcosted too, btw. Usually the cost of these are prohibitive because of edge cases. Nobody can have the toy because it's abusive on a specific chassi. Daredevil, Elusive, Saturation Salvo, Swarm Tactics, Trick Shot, Fearless, Debris gambit, Snap Shot, are imho all at least slightly overcosted.

Ordnance is slightly overcosted, especially missiles. Cannons too. Easily half the modifications category. Every single illicit. Most titles. Half the sensors. Most astromechs. Most crew and gunners. Some of the tech.

8 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Does anyone think upsilons aren't bad?

People can't separate Tavson from the rest because Tavson is the only upsilon that shows up unless they want another one and Tavson is already in the list.

Also @Kaptin Krunch even if I don't go full bomber on the StarFortress and just say "lets bring this to be a giant brick that brings a lot of firepower in the middle of the field" it's still too expensive to consider and not well modded shots. Just a Cobalt with VTG is 64 and even then I'd highly consider Paige gunner for 71 total to shoot at the same target or if nothing is on the side arcs. None of the StarFortess pilots are made to shoot well, only bomb well. I'd have to then invest in C3PO crew to help split up the mods per shot. I'd rather just spend 3 more points for 2 RZ2 Awing blues with adv optics that are 2 separate targets to shoot at and have well modded shots.

7 minutes ago, RStan said:

People can't separate Tavson from the rest because Tavson is the only upsilon that shows up unless they want another one and Tavson is already in the list.

Also @Kaptin Krunch even if I don't go full bomber on the StarFortress and just say "lets bring this to be a giant brick that brings a lot of firepower in the middle of the field" it's still too expensive to consider and not well modded shots. Just a Cobalt with VTG is 64 and even then I'd highly consider Paige gunner for 71 total to shoot at the same target or if nothing is on the side arcs. None of the StarFortess pilots are made to shoot well, only bomb well. I'd have to then invest in C3PO crew to help split up the mods per shot. I'd rather just spend 3 more points for 2 RZ2 Awing blues with adv optics that are 2 separate targets to shoot at and have well modded shots.

I think eventually it just becomes the resistance VCX with more bombs and better time on target. Mods are easy to come by for resistance. As soon as Rose Crew cost changes YT and Fort Bomber will become massively popular. Pretty much all it would take is cheaper Rose + Bombs and a few pt cost reductions to the base ship to be a useful fully operational 360.

1 minute ago, Cerebrawl said:

I'm not saying every slot should be filled, but "empty slot" is usually the best pick for the vast majority of them. 90% was a bit hyperbolic, but it's more than half.

Are you saying talents are the only upgrades? Often it's the only slot worth filling. I think some of the "correctly" priced upgrades are overcosted too, btw. Usually the cost of these are prohibitive because of edge cases. Nobody can have the toy because it's abusive on a specific chassi. Daredevil, Elusive, Saturation Salvo, Swarm Tactics, Trick Shot, Fearless, Debris gambit, Snap Shot, are imho all at least slightly overcosted.

Ordnance is slightly overcosted, especially missiles. Cannons too. Easily half the upgrades category. Every single illicit. Most titles. Half the sensors. Most astromechs. Most crew and gunners. Some of the tech.

I just grabbed talents because it was the top of my list and there's a lot of them to look at, no real motivation. They probably aren't representative of the full sample of upgrades. I'd agree that generally, cannons and missiles are somewhat lacking, but as they're the most complicated things in term of "value" that's not too surprising. I'd agree with you on Elusive and maybe Fearless for "over-priced" status, I think I see what you mean.

If we're just talking in degrees th en yeah I agree by definition of any game, only like 10-15% of the stuff is going to be competitive. I'm just glad "nothing" is competitive with the best upgrades. Basically, often times the best competitor for an upgrade slot is no upgrade. There's a couple of slots that are a disaster, like turrets, but if "nothing" isn't competitive with the best upgrade, it means ALL the upgrades would be under-priced, right?

1 minute ago, RStan said:

People can't separate Tavson from the rest because Tavson is the only upsilon that shows up unless they want another one and Tavson is already in the list.

Also @Kaptin Krunch even if I don't go full bomber on the StarFortress and just say "lets bring this to be a giant brick that brings a lot of firepower in the middle of the field" it's still too expensive to consider and not well modded shots. Just a Cobalt with VTG is 64 and even then I'd highly consider Paige gunner for 71 total to shoot at the same target or if nothing is on the side arcs. None of the StarFortess pilots are made to shoot well, only bomb well. I'd have to then invest in C3PO crew to help split up the mods per shot. I'd rather just spend 3 more points for 2 RZ2 Awing blues with adv optics that are 2 separate targets to shoot at and have well modded shots.

tavson is also bad, he's just good at crushing good stuff that shouldn't be jousting

11 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Mods are easy to come by for resistance.

Are they as easy to come by as saw crew? Because that's pretty easy.

8 minutes ago, Brunas said:

tavson is also bad, he's just good at crushing good stuff that shouldn't be jousting

I feel personally attacked

11 minutes ago, Brunas said:

tavson is also bad, he's just good at crushing good stuff that shouldn't be jousting

There's a lot that fit in this category... and this 'good at jousiting' category is often enough to push a player to the top half of the field when they can correctly identify when to joust and when to break and engage. 'Bad' seems inappropriate because it applies only part of the time. 'Useful' seems a better designation.

Is there a definition of what 'bad' is yet?

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

Under-costed:

• Dedicated
• Treacherous
• Composure
• Crack Shot
• Ensnare

"Correctly" Priced:

• Daredevil
• Elusive
• Intimidation
• Juke
• Lone Wolf
• Marksmanship
• Predator
• Saturation Salvo
• Snap Shot
• Swarm Tactics
• Trick Shot
• Heroic
• Fanatical
• Fearless
• Ruthless
• Debris Gambit
• Selfless
• Gravitic Deflection

Over-priced:

• Expert Handling
• Outmaneuver
• Squad Leader

whoa there, buddy, who brought wild Extended cards like Saturation Salvo and Debris Gambit into this conversation? We're talking about serious, System Open-level play, where those powerhouses are banned.

56 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Are they as easy to come by as saw crew? Because that's pretty easy.

This is your quarterly reminder to remain vigilant about Resistance Upgrades.

.

46 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Is there a definition of what 'bad' is yet?

No. It isnt necessary.

8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I keep threatening to try Chewbacca crew. Korr Sella/Rose probably remains the correct crew choice for what I'm doing, but with Chewbacca, everyone on this lunchbox fits in the list.

2 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

uh huh.

x=90+2(90)

It's actually closer to x=80+2(100)

A subtle difference, but it does add some to the total arc coverage.

Side note: Does the firing arc line count as in or out when measuring a firing arc?

If the line measures as out, does that mean a ship with separate side and front arcs could theoretically have the corner of an enemy ship base on the line, with no other part in either arc, so it's technically r3 but out of both arcs?

31 minutes ago, Smikies02 said:

It's actually closer to x=80+2(100)

A subtle difference, but it does add some to the total arc coverage.

Side note: Does the firing arc line count as in or out when measuring a firing arc?

If the line measures as out, does that mean a ship with separate side and front arcs could theoretically have the corner of an enemy ship base on the line, with no other part in either arc, so it's technically r3 but out of both arcs?

I want to say the rules reference says you have to be inside the line, but can’t check that right now.