31 minutes ago, RStan said:It's almost like we wouldn't have to initiative scale so many things if the pilots at those higher initiatives were costed appropriately....
I get this.
But I also get wanting to make as many variations viable, and having overpriced pilots based on what they are maximally capable of based on certain upgrades makes the stock pilots more unplayable.
3 hours ago, RStan said:It's almost like we wouldn't have to initiative scale so many things if the pilots at those higher initiatives were costed appropriately....
Initiative is a multiplier. Some upgrades are multipliers. The only scenario where something's (maybe) not over or under powered involves scaling.
1 minute ago, prauxim said:Initiative is a multiplier.
There are lots of multipliers. Price per health is a multiplier when weighing the value of a hull upgrade. Resilience is a multiplier when weighing offensive mods. Offensive output is a multiplier when considering defensive mods. Etc.
1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:There are lots of multipliers. Price per health is a multiplier when weighing the value of a hull upgrade. Resilience is a multiplier when weighing offensive mods. Offensive output is a multiplier when considering defensive mods. Etc.
Yeah, and HU is over costed for most builds.
53 minutes ago, prauxim said:Yeah, and HU is over costed for most builds.
Agreed. There is no one correct cost for any upgrade, only tradeoffs to manage. Turns out balancing is really tough I guess!
1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:Agreed. There is no one correct cost for any upgrade, only tradeoffs to manage. Turns out balancing is really tough I guess!
For sure, which is why I responded to someone claiming "if only Ini was priced correctly..."
Early Monday morning take: if wedge survives yet another point change unscathed, ffg is again confirmed to know Jack **** about their game.
54 would probably be a good start
FFG confirmed pdf points changes tomorrow (25/6) but not legal for competitive use until the app update on 11/7 (USA release date)
3 hours ago, Dreadai said:FFG confirmed pdf points changes tomorrow (25/6) but not legal for competitive use until the app update on 11/7 (USA release date)
Other than the Spanish sos, which we already knew wasn't effected by the point change, there are premier events involved?
1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:Other than the Spanish sos, which we already knew wasn't effected by the point change, there are premier events involved?
Points aren't valid until the app is updated, so any event is impacted, not just premier events.
5 minutes ago, Dreadai said:Points aren't valid until the app is updated, so any event is impacted, not just premier events.
So the thought is that they’re going to... what, drop them in the forum? It seems like a bad idea to update the PDFs but not the builder.
Plus, we all know that post-drop, they can pry points from local tournaments from our cold, dead hands.
57 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:So the thought is that they’re going to... what, drop them in the forum? It seems like a bad idea to update the PDFs but not the builder.
This is FFG ... so who knows what will actually happen ... just read into it what you will ...
1 hour ago, Dreadai said:Points aren't valid until the app is updated, so any event is impacted, not just premier events.
Or what is way more likely is that just about every TO will say "use new points peeps". FFG ain't gonna turn up to the event and smash everyone's toys if we dare use them, and it's not like all the 3rd party apps won't be updated within 24 hours anyway. Just another reason not to use FFGs own app.
1 hour ago, Dreadai said:Points aren't valid until the app is updated, so any event is impacted, not just premier events.
I mean, once points are in the wild, there's not much FFG can do to stop non-premier events from using them if they choose to.
38 minutes ago, Max Teranous said:Or what is way more likely is that just about every TO will say "use new points peeps". FFG ain't gonna turn up to the event and smash everyone's toys if we dare use them, and it's not like all the 3rd party apps won't be updated within 24 hours anyway. Just another reason not to use FFGs own app.
Right.
Yeah. It’s just another symptom of the bukkake party this release has turned into.
19 minutes ago, Dreadai said:Yeah. It’s just another symptom of the bukkake party this release has turned into.
Of all the words not to be word-filtered...
2 hours ago, PaulRuddSays said:So the thought is that they’re going to... what, drop them in the forum? It seems like a bad idea to update the PDFs but not the builder.
Plus, we all know that post-drop, they can pry points from local tournaments from our cold, dead hands.
Isn't this what happened last time? We knew what the new points were before they were 'legal'
17 minutes ago, Brunas said:Of all the words not to be word-filtered...
Calm down there h o s s
Seems a decent way to do it to me.
That way, all the beef trolls get a couple weeks of saying farewell to practicing how-to-lose-friends-and-irritate-people. Instead of emerging from under their bridges and hitting the message boards with cold fury about how they were sent packing with their instantly illegal list.
The rest of us get a little time to fine tune our soon to be illegal overpowered nonsense*
*RIP my not really OP 200pt Swarm Tactics Fang lists 
21 hours ago, Brunas said:So, two questions.
1. Afterburners effectively wasn't played at 8 points. Do you think 8/9 for i5 and i6 are real prices anyone would bring it at?
2. I assume the logic for afterburners being initiative scaled is "boosting is better at higher initiatives", right? Does that logic not scale to say that every upgrade in the game should be priced on initiative? Clearly targeting computer should be by the same logic, as should things like advanced SLAM, r2 astromech, etc.
Did Afterburners at 8/9 and Vader at 65 exists at the same time? (I honestly don't know, but I don't think so.)
The logic that an upgrade is better at high Init does apply to a lot of upgrades, but not all of them, and almost never to the extent that repositioning upgrades do, and not to the extent that free-action repositiong upgrades (allowing double-repositioning) do.
3 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:I mean, once points are in the wild, there's not much FFG can do to stop non-premier events from using them if they choose to.
theme for league night this week is new points!
6 hours ago, Sunitsa said:Other than the Spanish sos, which we already knew wasn't effected by the point change, there are premier events involved?
tbf, they do what they want in Spain with regards to points changes anyway.
1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:Did Afterburners at 8/9 and Vader at 65 exists at the same time? (I honestly don't know, but I don't think so.)
The logic that an upgrade is better at high Init does apply to a lot of upgrades, but not all of them, and almost never to the extent that repositioning upgrades do, and not to the extent that free-action repositiong upgrades (allowing double-repositioning) do.
SO the previous iteration of Vader was 70 points base, 8 point afterburners (and 12 point supernatural).
But before hitting that, let me link you the metawing page for afterburners since wave 3:
Afterburners is pretty much synonymous with Darth Vader - more usages on him than any other pilot (or all of them combined). Vader does about as well with afterburners as without: (34% vs 34.17%): http://meta.listfortress.com/pilots/179?ranking_start=2019-03-20&. The only other common uses are Wedge (who gets much worse with AB), and Guri (who gets much better). Didn't realize until checking for this that that Guri gets so much better than any other pilot with it.
Just going to look at Vader at the moment, because I think Wedge/Guri are probably too small/off meta with AB to be super meaningful at the moment. If we're only really seeing AB on Vader (450+ compared to other pilots at around 0-10, wedge/guri at 40-50), and it's roughly an even value add on Vader, I think it's safe to say that if Vader + Afterburners is too cheap it's Vader that's too cheap. At least balance wise. If you think there should be an additional tax for lack of fun or whatever for double repositioning, that's fine too, but I don't think the tournament data supports afterburners being the part of this equation that's too cheap (on vader).
I also take issue with initiative based pricing because it's so non-granular. There aren't half points, so every initiative has to either round (complicated/ugly), or just be way out of line. Let's say arbitrarily afterburners is absolutely correct at 6 on i6 (or if you hate this, some hypothetical upgrade that scales with initiative that isn't afterburners). Is it really going to be one point on Academies? For example, does 1 point afterburners (or 2 points even) for academies or generic t70s sound right or fair?
tl;dr
78 for afterburners vader was too hot (in a world of vader/whisper and such)
71 for afterburners vader might be too cold?
Seems like Vader is what's wrong to find just right.
Edited by BrunasOh, and before anyone yells at me for ignoring Guri because it doesn't fit my data - I'm ignoring Guri because I've never played AB Guri to have an opinion.
I will say that it appears that AB is better on Guri than Vader, which leads me to be skeptical of initiative based pricing. Or people think you can AS roll, move, then boost, which seems like it would be pretty good...
