1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Surprise surprise, ladies and gents I’ve come around a little bit and you’ll be surprised. New theses:

1. Worlds should be Hyperspace as it is the most skill-based format and the champion should be crowned based on skill.

2. Nationals (or primes or whatever they’re called) should be Hyperspace for the same reason.

3. For points-balance-data-collection reasons there should be high-competition high-skill-level events in Extended, probably on at least some path to worlds.

4. Perhaps the best opportunities for this would be the SoS Worlds qualifiers and the Last-Chance qualifiers, where there is advancement on the table, but no inherent title for the victor.

5. For improved sample size, there should be plenty of smaller events in Extended as well. CAC and other casual tournaments especially would benefit from this.

6. For improved user experience, there should be plenty of smaller events in Hyperspace as well. Store champs would especially benefit from this.

In summary, I’d like to see a more or less even split between the two, with Hyperspace as the preference when there’s an important, singular title on the line, but with at least some extended on the path to worlds (for game-balance purposes) though it will also be the preferred casual format.

What changed for you?

35 minutes ago, jagsba said:

I wonder how much of that is us comparing him to soontirs ridiculous undercosting and it feeling bad by comparison.

Soontir isnt in hyperspace, and I still don't think Poe is competitive.

The comparison just goes to show how comical soontir is, and that Poe is also likely overpriced.

29 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I think overall the "Poe Problem" says more about how stupid unblockable unrockable unstressable 💜 is than anything else.

The idea that Passive Vader is considered fine but Poe is considered bad is alarming depending on what opinion is actually correct.

I'm sorry, you're saying that 3-agility, 3 force vader that can take multiple action, and 2-agility, no-force, 2-action poe are approximately the same?

9 hours ago, Dragon_King said:

couldn't resist

tbf, the people with the strongest opinions here are Fort Hyperspace. Maybe it's because Extended's worse faction becomes the best faction in this curated format? Ironic, given that I have a preference for extended despite playing the vast majority of my games in FO.

Jokes aside, when the rant-thread of the forums becomes a discussion as to which format the game should be in, it shows that the game in general is in the best place it has been yet (but it could be even better)! Because:

• The developers have cared enough to add another format to the game. This and the fact that we have point changes means that the game is given a proper competitive treatment. It's a far cry from ******** out product with blatant power creep and price plummeting in the forms of must-buy cards, yet somehow expecting the customers to form a diverse meta and being perennially surprised when that doesn't happen.
• No list is absolutely dominating the rest in the game. There are stronger lists than others, but there's a good showing from each faction and no game is strictly speaking unwinnable. If there were a glaring problem, it would be this month's flavored rant of the forums. Heck, even ensnare/tugboats/ketsu are addressed with the tractor change and Composure + Afterburner Maarek/Snap/Baron bustedness addressed, and the vast majority of all those problems are in extended.
• Rotation means the limited format will remain truly limited (compare with last year's, and how in October a great many of the most powerful extended lists were also 100% Hyperspace legal) and be fresh every change.

20 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I'm sorry, you're saying that 3-agility, 3 force vader that can take multiple action, and 2-agility, no-force, 2-action poe are approximately the same?

No more that Poe has some extra options that vader doesnt, namely double reposition in hyper. And the ability to boost which is helpful. If vader having 3 agility and 3 force charges (usually 2 though) is enough to make him fine at 70 pts and Poe bad at 72 pts with i6 slam I have alot of concerns about force charges. There ability is essentially the same except one is balanced around stress and is interesting and the other is balanced around basically nothing and isnt interesting. Vader being able to kturn after performing two actions when he doesnt spend his lock the previous turn or to bump and have calcs to fall back on is intense to but again gets back to me being mad at force and not poe i guess.

Basically its weird that 1.0 PTL is bad on a chonk i6 boost roll ship while 2.0 Force Charges are good on a roll only 3 agility ship. I dont really disagree. Ya hate to see it.

The Poe v Vader comparison or Poe v Kylo comparison really highlights how poorly force charges have been implemented.

10 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Soontir isnt in hyperspace, and I still don't think Poe is competitive.

What's your definition of competitive? That's something which varies from person to person, or at least group to group.

Guys you are forgetting that poe is also stress locked and has to choose if he wants to barrel before he moves, which would be a huge handicap even if it didn't come with a red die tax...

Also the whole "HS is more skill-based" comes from what exactly? Extended has some more clearly "broken" lists (aka vader+whisper), but the amount of lists and players that joust and pray is staggering in HS...

52 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

tbf, the people with the strongest opinions here are Fort Hyperspace. Maybe it's because Extended's worse faction becomes the best faction in this curated format? Ironic, given that I have a preference for extended despite playing the vast majority of my games in FO.

Jokes aside, when the rant-thread of the forums becomes a discussion as to which format the game should be in, it shows that the game in general is in the best place it has been yet (but it could be even better)! Because:

• The developers have cared enough to add another format to the game. This and the fact that we have point changes means that the game is given a proper competitive treatment. It's a far cry from ******** out product with blatant power creep and price plummeting in the forms of must-buy cards, yet somehow expecting the customers to form a diverse meta and being perennially surprised when that doesn't happen.
• No list is absolutely dominating the rest in the game. There are stronger lists than others, but there's a good showing from each faction and no game is strictly speaking unwinnable. If there were a glaring problem, it would be this month's flavored rant of the forums. Heck, even ensnare/tugboats/ketsu are addressed with the tractor change and Composure + Afterburner Maarek/Snap/Baron bustedness addressed, and the vast majority of all those problems are in extended.
• Rotation means the limited format will remain truly limited (compare with last year's, and how in October a great many of the most powerful extended lists were also 100% Hyperspace legal) and be fresh every change.

FO is not the best faction in hyperspace.

52 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

No more that Poe has some extra options that vader doesnt, namely double reposition in hyper. And the ability to boost which is helpful. If vader having 3 agility and 3 force charges (usually 2 though) is enough to make him fine at 70 pts and Poe bad at 72 pts with i6 slam I have alot of concerns about force charges. There ability is essentially the same except one is balanced around stress and is interesting and the other is balanced around basically nothing and isnt interesting. Vader being able to kturn after performing two actions when he doesnt spend his lock the previous turn or to bump and have calcs to fall back on is intense to but again gets back to me being mad at force and not poe i guess.

Basically its weird that 1.0 PTL is bad on a chonk i6 boost roll ship while 2.0 Force Charges are good on a roll only 3 agility ship. I dont really disagree. Ya hate to see it.

The Poe v Vader comparison or Poe v Kylo comparison really highlights how poorly force charges have been implemented.

You should have concerns about force charges.

2 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Also the whole "HS is more skill-based" comes from what exactly? Extended has some more clearly "broken" lists (aka vader+whisper), but the amount of lists and players that joust and pray is staggering in HS...

I think that could lead into an interesting discussion.

The logic chain to my understanding is:

1. Listbuilding has a larger influence in extended, and a smaller one in hyperspace. There are also more lists in extended, again giving the matchup luck a larger weight.
2. As a result, the decisions on the table necessarily are more important in hyperspace
3. The decisions on the table are a result of player skill, as opposed to list building where the entire list can be copied without the work to develop it
4. As a result, hyperspace allows for more player skill. That does not mean that every game demonstrates higher skill, just that the potential is there.

There was a 5 and 6 but I forgot.

7 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

the amount of lists and players that joust and pray is staggering in HS...

FTFY.

It's true everywhere, except that in extended, the big brains get to come out and be more protected with 'arc dodging' too.

There ain't *that* much special going on in hyperspace except a lot of the crutches were removed, and even then, you see the flocking to boba... (which is true in extended, a la boba/guri)

10 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

It's true everywhere, except that in extended, the big brains get to come out and be more protected with 'arc dodging' too

Just wait till people discover Silencers...

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

Soontir isnt in hyperspace, and I still don't think Poe is competitive.

The comparison just goes to show how comical soontir is, and that Poe is also likely overpriced.

oh I agree, I just wonder if Poe feels worse than he really is because soontir is so comically underpriced and poe is probably slightly overpriced

55 minutes ago, gennataos said:

What's your definition of competitive? That's something which varies from person to person, or at least group to group.

Just in case you thought I was trying to "catch you" and use your definition against you or something like that, @Tlfj200, I wasn't...I'm genuinely curious.

I really don't think I can be objective about the competitiveness of Poe. I figure some sort of consistency to make 4-2 over six rounds of swiss is what I consider competitive.

Worlds should be hyperspace or it can be extended and in Europe so I can care even less about it.

Poes mad

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

What changed for you?

Mainly @Kieransi and @theBitterFig (for some reason I don't understand I agree with both of them like 98% of the time).

The reason: Your ability to change a person's mind is strictly the same as your ability to understand their point of view and the underlying principles that drive it, and make concessions in your argument accordingly. Nuance and elucidation change minds. Polemics and partisan platitudes don't.

As a summary:

My driving point:

• Extended needs to be balanced for the sake of the game. Even if Hyperspace were all that was ever played, Extended needs to be balanced because that's where future hyperspace stuff comes from. But that's beside the point because Hyperspace isn't all that's played and casual players care about balance too!
• Extended can only be balanced based on good data, and data is only good if it comes from high-level competitive players at OP events.
• For that reason, Extended needs to be played by high-level competitive players at OP event

The opposing point:

• Extended (by its very nature) has all of the content in the game, some of which has fundamental problems with player experience and good/bad matchup-making.
• Pieces that create problems with player experience or good/bad matchup-making shouldn't be the reason someone earns a championship title.
• Hyperspace seems to be specifically curated to eliminate those offensive pieces and create unique competitive list-building challenges
• A player should earn a championship title based on how well they can play the specific competitive game set up in the Hyperspace format.

I think both of these points absolutely have merit and stand on their own. My premises listed above seek to harmonize the two: It is extremely important that we have Extended play at high-level events (including on the path to worlds) but on the other hand it does seem wrong for championships to be won outside the Hyperspace format.

That said,

38 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Also the whole "HS is more skill-based" comes from what exactly? Extended has some more clearly "broken" lists (aka vader+whisper), but the amount of lists and players that joust and pray is staggering in HS...

I think this is a very important point that is much overlooked, especially within the context that the current Extended meta is almost completely unknown.

We don't know if Regen Jedi can stand up to Sloane Interceptors or 5X because they never had to before. We don't know what kind of effect the buffs to the Scyk, Jump, and TIE Aggressor will have, much less the changes to the VCX, YT-2400, etc.

We don't even know if there are any viable lists left that AS Guri or SNR Kylo are particularly brutal against. It's entirely possible (though also entirely unknown) that the broken stuff might just be straight-up bad now and becomes basically a non-factor in Extended. That's the world I'd prefer to live in, but we just don't know.

And even if the broken stuff still is strong or still is NPE (very different things) it is still entirely possible for them to receive an errata (move SNR to the system phase, make AS a non-move action, spend the tractor to move a ship to fix ensnare, etc.).

I think Extended can be a good game. I also think that it might be a good game. But we don't know.

Regardless, with Hyperspace as the "specifically competitive" format, it makes sense for championships to be crowned within that format. Though I wouldn't mind seeing two championships for the two formats either.

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I think this is a very important point that is much overlooked, especially within the context that the current Extended meta is almost completely unknown.

We don't know if Regen Jedi can stand up to Sloane Interceptors or 5X because they never had to before. We don't know what kind of effect the buffs to the Scyk, Jump, and TIE Aggressor will have, much less the changes to the VCX, YT-2400, etc.

if 5X isn't dominating hyperspace, the more limited format... why would it be better in the more open format, where jedi get their 7b back?

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

We don't even know if there are any viable lists left that AS Guri or SNR Kylo are particularly brutal against. It's entirely possible (though also entirely unknown) that the broken stuff might just be straight-up bad now and becomes basically a non-factor in Extended. That's the world I'd prefer to live in, but we just don't know.

adv guri so comically dunks on swarms, it's almost amusing.

almost.

3 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

And even if the broken stuff still is strong or still is NPE (very different things) it is still entirely possible for them to receive an errata (move SNR to the system phase, make AS a non-move action, spend the tractor to move a ship to fix ensnare, etc.).

I mean, they can, and really, even should, but you can clearly see FFG has resistance to errata. Honestly, why even errata these cards, when you can functionally ban them by making them like, 45 points flat? What do we lose?

3 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I think Extended can be a good game. I also think that it might be a good game. But we don't know.

Regardless, with Hyperspace as the "specifically competitive" format, it makes sense for championships to be crowned within that format. Though I wouldn't mind seeing two championships for the two formats either.

I mean, it could be, but it will always be harder to balance. Frankly, the conversion kits were, from a balance and design standpoint, clearly a bad decision they keep trying to make up for, and it's a shame.

But, considering how little changed at the top end, I think it's rather naive to claim we don't know very much about extended. We might not know everything, but we probably know quite a lot.

18 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

if 5X isn't dominating hyperspace, the more limited format... why would it be better in the more open format, where jedi get their 7b back?

My point isn't that 5X would dominate, but that the high-3-primary-ship-count meta creates problems that become harder for some lists to solve, and those problems don't go away when you make the ship more expensive for less agility. The attrition rate gets worse for Jedi. But again, we're dealing with unknowns so I'm not trying to make a definitive statement. I'm trying to say it's an unknown.

18 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

adv guri so comically dunks on swarms, it's almost amusing.

almost.

On last season's swarms, sure. But again the high-arc-count and high-3-primary-count create problems she hasn't had to deal with before. Can she? Probably. But we don't know. I'd think it's at least harder now. Also worth noting that her investment in I5 is wasted against I2 lists. She might as well be Xizor or Dalan, etc. It's only the I5 mirror where she has a disgusting bid that's truly NPE.

18 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I mean, they can, and really, even should, but you can clearly see FFG has resistance to errata. Honestly, why even errata these cards, when you can functionally ban them by making them like, 45 points flat? What do we lose?

Well the answer kind of goes both ways: They have resistance to errata. That's a very good thing given the effect this has on players that now own cards that don't do what they say. But there's hope, even a long dormancy. How long did it take them to errata Biggs in 1.0? Yet they eventually did. I think there's still hope for SNR and AS.

But one way or another the problem is fixable. They can effectively "ban" the cards as long as that doesn't actually make them stronger (by points conserved in an un-killable target). On the other hand, if such a ban would "work" then you're essentially conceding that at some point it takes equal skill to play the SNR ace as it does to play against it. I think there's a potential situation where that could be possible, but the reality of the bad matchups and NPE situations that can ensue make this an unfavorable proposition.

Either way I don't see anything that currently exists in X-Wing as an inherently unsolvable problem, and hence I have high hopes for the long-term balance of Extended. Hopes that truly would be dashed if high-level OP support for extended really were to be ended.

18 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I mean, it could be, but it will always be harder to balance. Frankly, the conversion kits were, from a balance and design standpoint, clearly a bad decision they keep trying to make up for, and it's a shame.

I don't entirely understand what you're saying here, but I think I'm inclined to agree. There was a lot of content upon release that takes quite a while to shake out. They're still working on bits of it. Is that preferable to less content? I think that's a matter of opinion, whether you care more about diversity or balance in the stricter sense.

18 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

But, considering how little changed at the top end, I think it's rather naive to claim we don't know very much about extended. We might not know everything, but we probably know quite a lot.

I really don't know that this is true though. The very limited evidence that exists doesn't support it. There was only one Jedi list that got 4 wins or better at the MK Worlds qualifier, and it was 5x CLT Jedi Knights. 7b did get nerfed a little and so did R2, and so did Obi-Wan (though by only 1 point). And that's beside the point that all the things that were at the top of the heap last season (and aren't in Hyperspace) were insane arc-dodgers, and those do struggle more as the arcs against them become more and more, and as those arcs throw more dice, which we certainly have seen happen in Hyperspace and have no particular reason to think wouldn't happen in Extended as well.

But again, this is purely speculation. I'd love to see more results, which is why I'm a proponent for keeping Extended in OP at at least a significant level even if not for championships.

tag yourself. I'm -9, -3

3 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

tag yourself. I'm -9, -3

0, +2, (each ±8 depending on my mood).

Also this is beautiful.

54 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Also worth noting that her investment in I5 is wasted against I2 lists. She might as well be Xizor or Dalan, etc. It's only the I5 mirror where she has a disgusting bid that's truly NPE.

A nice feature of the bid outside of the I5 mirror is that it's saved points.

When a half point Guri is worth more than 1.5 X wings... I can't call that wasted points.

Gross. no. Worlds is best of the best. And that's extended. You already get a large majority of the competitive events on HS. Stop telling people they have to play these certain sets of ships and only use these certain sets of upgrades.

Theres nothing wrong with Extended and frankly the lack of people really being able to explain what extended meta and its boogeymen even are just says how much its a knee jerk ew I don't want to have to think about aces, let me faceroll and pray.

5 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Gross. no. Worlds is best of the best. And that's extended. You already get a large majority of the competitive events on HS. Stop telling people they have to play these certain sets of ships and only use these certain sets of upgrades.

Theres nothing wrong with Extended and frankly the lack of people really being able to explain what extended meta and its boogeymen even are just says how much its a knee jerk ew I don't want to have to think about aces, let me faceroll and pray.

Care to explain why Magic uses Standard for their World Championship then (their version of Hyperspace)?

10 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Gross. no. Worlds is best of the best. And that's extended. You already get a large majority of the competitive events on HS. Stop telling people they have to play these certain sets of ships and only use these certain sets of upgrades.

Theres nothing wrong with Extended and frankly the lack of people really being able to explain what extended meta and its boogeymen even are just says how much its a knee jerk ew I don't want to have to think about aces, let me faceroll and pray.

10 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

Care to explain why Magic uses Standard for their World Championship then (their version of Hyperspace)?

Simple. Cuz Magic is a garbo game that uses Standard and rotating formats (effectively and needfully due to their card game) make people buy new sets. Also cuz its newest sets. HS is just a curated list.

14 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

Care to explain why Magic uses Standard for their World Championship then (their version of Hyperspace)?

Why do you guys keep comparing X-wing to Magic? They have so little in common it amounts to common elements present in 90% of all games that ever existed.

15 minutes ago, Flurpy said:

Care to explain why Magic uses Standard for their World Championship then (their version of Hyperspace)?

Yeah I wouldn’t use that as the arguing point. Magic doesn’t have any rebalancing tools except the banlist anyway, and rotation is as much about sales as it is balance.

Comparing anything FFG makes to anything GW or WotC is like comparing Tolkien to Game of Thrones. People do it all the time, but it’s still an awful comparison.