8 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

Fenn With an 18pt bid probably scares them off. Miss a block and you’re screwed.

Poe's health is a commodity to be spent.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Vultures are really potent. Hyenas... don't seem to be played that much. I'd have thought the difference would be smaller.

• Trade Federation Droid: 19/20 points, depending on struts.
• Techno Union Bomber 25/26 points, depending on struts.
• The only real difference is the TUB has 2 more hull than TFD, for 6 points.
• Incredibly similar dials. Essentially the same actions, except the roll links Lock instead of Calculate on the Hyena. Hyena doesn't have any gaps in the upgrade bar, but allows easy access to DRK-1 Probe Droids, to essentially start the game with locks.

So.... Why are Hyenas so bad?

• Hyena lists will have fewer ships, but with how easy a Vulture dies, isn't it often going to be the same number of ships once you get to actual combat?
• Is the Roll-Lock noticeably worse than Roll-Calculate? I think it's at least a little worse, but is it *that* much worse?
• Is it just that the list Tetris doesn't work out, the pieces just don't fit together?
• Does it just cost too much real world money to build a list of Hyenas? If I've got 7-8 Vultures already, I can imagine buying 6-7 Hyenas isn't that tempting.

What am I missing?

So, there's no intrinsic economy advantage to 25pt Hyena vs 19pt Vulture. Their dials are almost interchangeable, they can both sit on rocks, Roll + Lock is weaker than Roll + Calc, but in my experience, that's not a deal breaker. Because they're so interchangeable, the only reason to look at Hyenas are slots/abilities, and in the question of "how much do you care about Torpedoes, devices and double missile?" The answer from most players is basically "meh".

A Dork and Plasma Torps is a good way to get mods and not prohibitively expensive, a lot of the bomb builds don't play as nicely with large numbers, 404 is kind of a meme and 32C still bafflingly overcosted.

TL:DR they aren't bad, but their focus on specific roles has made them somewhat niche to the Vulture's generalist.

9 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Yeah because poe is such a good arcdodger that you can always choose to not joust

yeah, turns out autothrusters and advanced slam at i6 is a pretty good option for dodging arcs.

3 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

A Dork and Plasma Torps is a good way to get mods and not prohibitively expensive, a lot of the bomb builds don't play as nicely with large numbers, 404 is kind of a meme and 32C still bafflingly overcosted.

Start of engagement coordinate is something to always be cautious about. I don't mind FFG being very careful with 32C.

6 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

yeah, turns out autothrusters and advanced slam at i6 is a pretty good option for dodging arcs.

im not sure i want to play a version of xwing where that isnt "good" enough.

2 minutes ago, RStan said:

Start of engagement coordinate is something to always be cautious about. I don't mind FFG being very careful with 32C.

That doesn't make it not unplayable at its current cost (hard maybe in Hyperspace just because all the B-22's are out).

Just now, Boom Owl said:

im not sure i want to play a version of xwing where that isnt "good" enough.

oh, and Poe can premovement supernatural too. Pretty sure he can arcdodge with the best of them.

9 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

That doesn't make it not unplayable at its current cost (hard maybe in Hyperspace just because all the B-22's are out).

I don't get what kind of xwing you guys are playing... If that was enough poe would be dominating or top tier at the very least.

Good luck getting back the 73+ poe's point without getting halved while "arcdodging"

2 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I don't get what kind of xwing you guys are playing... If that was enough poe would be dominating or top tier at the very least.

Good luck getting back the 73+ poe's point without getting halved while "arcdodging"

I'm going to agree here too...

Like, I, in theory, don't mind that poe gets shot, but man, he gets shot REALLY EASILY, and takes damage, REALLY EASILY, a LOT. I'm not sure he carries his points often.

5 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I don't get what kind of xwing you guys are playing... If that was enough poe would be dominating or top tier at the very least.

Good luck getting back the 73+ poe's point without getting halved while "arcdodging"

In my experience, a Poe focused on arc-dodging is a Poe which often gets bullied and doesn't contribute and/or dies.

19 minutes ago, RStan said:

I find 40pt coordinate bots disturbing 😛 we'll call it a draw

Surprise surprise, ladies and gents I’ve come around a little bit and you’ll be surprised. New theses:

1. Worlds should be Hyperspace as it is the most skill-based format and the champion should be crowned based on skill.

2. Nationals (or primes or whatever they’re called) should be Hyperspace for the same reason.

3. For points-balance-data-collection reasons there should be high-competition high-skill-level events in Extended, probably on at least some path to worlds.

4. Perhaps the best opportunities for this would be the SoS Worlds qualifiers and the Last-Chance qualifiers, where there is advancement on the table, but no inherent title for the victor.

5. For improved sample size, there should be plenty of smaller events in Extended as well. CAC and other casual tournaments especially would benefit from this.

6. For improved user experience, there should be plenty of smaller events in Hyperspace as well. Store champs would especially benefit from this.

In summary, I’d like to see a more or less even split between the two, with Hyperspace as the preference when there’s an important, singular title on the line, but with at least some extended on the path to worlds (for game-balance purposes) though it will also be the preferred casual format.

Is the hypothesis true that more player play small events? What is the amount of players summed up in events at casual-, custom and storechamp level? Maybe @Brunas?

e: would be simple, except that people are really bad at making listfortress entries and many events have multiple entries. Simply summing up participants

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Is the hypothesis true that more player play small events? What is the amount of players summed up in events at casual-, custom and storechamp level? Maybe @Brunas?

No idea, But the vast majority of people I know play a much larger number of small, (10-20 players), events than large. We have a decent number of stores to choose from.

A few travel around the larger nationals and trials, which may put them about even on average size.

A minority only do the small ones.

Tiny Euro Meta.

11 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Is the hypothesis true that more player play small events? What is the amount of players summed up in events at casual-, custom and storechamp level? Maybe @Brunas?

The answer is we can't answer this question because most of those local events aren't in listfortress or whatever, but yes, almost certainly regionals+ attendees represent a small fraction of the playerbase

Just now, svelok said:

The answer is we can't answer this question because most of those local events aren't in listfortress or whatever

But if those in there are already more then we know. We can confirm but not refute.

2 hours ago, LagJanson said:

She can be bad and fun at the same time. She can multitask. Or at least, she's optimistic enough to believe she can.

Optimism. That's they key right there.

55 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I'm going to agree here too...

Like, I, in theory, don't mind that poe gets shot, but man, he gets shot REALLY EASILY, and takes damage, REALLY EASILY, a LOT. I'm not sure he carries his points often.

I wonder how much of that is us comparing him to soontirs ridiculous undercosting and it feeling bad by comparison.

Can't remember if the title of that thread had Soontir over or under costed now.... I imagine there was no conclusion to it either way.... Shall we go there again?

I think he is....

-flips coin-

-coin lands on its edge-

Appropriately costed!

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

I'm going to agree here too...

Like, I, in theory, don't mind that poe gets shot, but man, he gets shot REALLY EASILY, and takes damage, REALLY EASILY, a LOT. I'm not sure he carries his points often.

My take is really that I dont know the answer. Poe hasnt been played much, when he as been played he seems to do pretty ok against bobabros at least.

When I have played him I havent been disappointed or felt like I 100% made terrible life choices. Resistance is not at all my area of expertise.

Not claiming he is S-Tier by any means, but a reasonable "fine" ship....probably yea. He doesnt seem substantially more bad against a good CIS list than other not Kylo stuff.

I personally like the fact that he is scared of taking 6+ shots from a vulture swarm. That seems like its working as intended.

I cant tell if he is not played much because everyone is correct in choosing not to play him.

Or that he just needs to be tested a bit more.

I think overall the "Poe Problem" says more about how stupid unblockable unrockable unstressable 💜 is than anything else.

The idea that Passive Vader is considered fine but Poe is considered bad is alarming depending on what opinion is actually correct.

7 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Can't remember if the title of that thread had Soontir over or under costed now.... I imagine there was no conclusion to it either way.... Shall we go there again?

Soontir is undercosted.

Also worlds and primes should be hyperspace only.

9 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I cant tell if he is not played much because everyone is correct in choosing not to play him.

Or that he just needs to be tested a bit more.

I guess since you can't fit (enough of) the jouster salad pieces (Jess, Bastian, Cova/Leia) nor all of the high-init A-Wings with a bid, people just opt out and don't even try. They also probably think Poe has to live to the end game or you lose.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Surprise surprise, ladies and gents I’ve come around a little bit and you’ll be surprised. New theses:

1. Worlds should be Hyperspace as it is the most skill-based format and the champion should be crowned based on skill.

2. Nationals (or primes or whatever they’re called) should be Hyperspace for the same reason.

Here, you'll be needing these:

27 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Soontir is undercosted.

Also worlds and primes should be hyperspace only.

This is just head or tails! Incomplete data!! Make more threads!!!