7 minutes ago, Three Eye Joe said:

You're stating a lot of Hyperbole as fact.

I was more taking a train of thought to its logical destination.

7 minutes ago, Three Eye Joe said:

Extended has a place. I would just prefer it far away from any table I'm playing at right now.

I guess it's just a difference of approach. We can play the best-balanced version of X-Wing that's ever existed (current hyperspace) or we can help X-Wing get to the next level of balance (by playing current extended). On these forums I see almost all of one and none of the other. Most extended players are mostly casuals like myself, and I know that while we appreciate the game balance as much as anyone, our games don't contribute to it

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Casual night between two old players.

This is what I'm talking about. What's wrong with having the whole game be balanced? Over 80% of what's not in Hyperspace is not objectionable under your frame of reference. The 20% that is needs fixing one way or another, and I prefer actually fixing it to just banning it in Hyperspace. That's a pretty impermanent and/or lazy solution.

Edit: Polemics, partisanship, and polarization (together with the naturally-ensuing mischaracterization of intellectual opponents) are what has killed all civility in discussion of religion and politics in the west. I see it forming here and don't want to see it kill X-Wing as well.

13 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Edit: Polemics, partisanship, and polarization (together with the naturally-ensuing mischaracterization of intellectual opponents) are what has killed all civility in discussion of religion and politics in the west. I see it forming here and don't want to see it kill X-Wing as well.

Tribalism (which covers all 3) is a core of many if not most human societies. There are entire industries (entertainment in its many forms being one) that are built to take advantage of this. Until tribalism completely fades, polarization like what you're encountering here is inevitable.

20 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

the best-balanced version of X-Wing that's ever existed (current hyperspace) or we can help X-Wing get to the next level of balance (by playing current extended).

I know this isn't the main point of your post, but it's probably worth noting right now that current hyperspace is definitely not the most balanced version of x-wing that's ever existed, by any reasonable benchmark.

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I know this isn't the main point of your post, but it's probably worth noting right now that current hyperspace is definitely not the most balanced version of x-wing that's ever existed, by any reasonable benchmark.

I agree. And its still 1000% better than extended as a long term competitive format.

We will protect Fort Hyperspace.

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I know this isn't the main point of your post, but it's probably worth noting right now that current hyperspace is definitely not the most balanced version of x-wing that's ever existed, by any reasonable benchmark.

Last night, with fair warning, I played Boba Fenn against one of my favorite opponents playing his intended Rebel Store Champ list. I wrecked him three times, badly enough that he got salty and a little depressed, and this player is possibly the most chill player in our whole Bay Area community.

In the first game, due to my bad play combined with extreme variance, he killed Fenn almost instantly. I did zero damage in return. Fett soloed his 200 points. That was the close game.

My Boba Fenn has a significant bid -- because it's almost impossible not to -- but it's nowhere near the 21-point bid I could easily have while not appreciably hurting the power of the list. (Obligatory: Bidding is terrible for the game. I just can't seem to force myself to do it to the extent that would be strongest.)

Hyperspace is great. Until Boba Fenn is fixed, it's absolutely not balanced.

6 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Last night, with fair warning, I played Boba Fenn against one of my favorite opponents playing his intended Rebel Store Champ list. I wrecked him three times, badly enough that he got salty and a little depressed, and this player is possibly the most chill player in our whole Bay Area community.

In the first game, due to my bad play combined with extreme variance, he killed Fenn almost instantly. I did zero damage in return. Fett soloed his 200 points. That was the close game.

My Boba Fenn has a significant bid -- because it's almost impossible not to -- but it's nowhere near the 21-point bid I could easily have while not appreciably hurting the power of the list. (Obligatory: Bidding is terrible for the game. I just can't seem to force myself to do it to the extent that would be strongest.)

Hyperspace is great. Until Boba Fenn is fixed, it's absolutely not balanced.

Yep, definitely. Vultures appear to be up there too, but not enough people play them for it to matter as much. It's hard to know how balanced things would be with both of those patched, though.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, the devs do the obvious and remove Fett next season. Maybe throw in the Hound’s Tooth (with a heavy buff since it had no showing this season) to compensate. Does that fix the problem?

What if the theoretical new ship is 10 points underpriced? Without extended data, we can’t expect any appreciable improvement to hyperspace.

As unpleasant as it seems, OP is more or less intended to break the game; when you have balance adjustments post-release it’s the most foolproof play-testing available. The goal is to keep on breaking it and fixing it until there’s nothing left to break.

But fort hyperspace is where we go to hide from whatever in the game is broken. It’s a beautiful duality; the faults discovered in one enhance the beauty found in the other!

In a game developer’s perfect world, all OP would be extended (for maximum iterative improvement) and all casual play would be hyperspace (for ideal player experience). Of course there’s the dilemma that competitive players are the most acutely aware of the game’s faults and will be the first to retreat to fort hyperspace, ceteris paribus.

I think this is why both are (more or less) equally present in OP, and particularly why Worlds must always be Extended.

Hyperspace is Rivendell. Hyperspace is Lothlórien. Hyperspace is Erebor. Hyperspace is Tom Bombadil's home in the Old Forest. It is a safe place where a strong power dwells. It is a beautiful place where we do not fear the evils that plague the wider world. Yet it can only exist for as long as the world is not in shadow. If those on the front lines were to give in, if the free world were to fall, if the shadow were to extend even to the gates of the ancient strongholds, those who remain will no longer have the power to hold it back, and even these too will fall.

We must protect Fort Hyperspace. There must always be Extended events on the route to Worlds.

3 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Suppose, for the sake of argument, the devs do the obvious and remove Fett next season. Maybe throw in the Hound’s Tooth (with a heavy buff since it had no showing this season) to compensate. Does that fix the problem?

What if the theoretical new ship is 10 points underpriced? Without extended data, we can’t expect any appreciable improvement to hyperspace

probably not - though stuff that's good against vultures is terrible against Boba, so it might also self-correct a bit.

tbh there's a fairly pronounced pareto effect for X-Wing: roughly 20% of players account for approximately 80% of tournament attendance.

If you break it up further, you see that likely less than a third of players will ever, in their life, play at a system open level event (see bullet 1 below), and it's probably only at most 60% of players that will play at a hyperspace trial type event (the 30-50 player super competitive events, bullet 2).

I think there's roughly four levels of competition:

1. all-out competition (When we listen to a krayt cast this is probably what they're talking about. People are really trying to win, probably don't all know each other, and everyone probably has some variant of the same 10-20 lists)

2. "friendly" competition (store champs, etc. Many players take these games super seriously because for most, this is the most competitive event they will go to. It's a little different because there's definitely some kinda casual players here, or some very new players)

3. yes I care who wins ("casual"-night games, leagues, small weekend tourneys, etc. It's still competitive, and there can be joy/anger over outcomes of the games, which often manifests as "muh dice")

4. DWYWM (do what you want man - we're probably not following all the rules anyway. netlist-shaming and baby-seal-clubbing can occur here but in general it's pretty wholesome)

all of these types of play have their own shortcomings and strengths, but I think it's important to realize that many players really haven't had a taste of (1) and are instead thinking of (2) and (3) when they make prognostications about the meta or formats or anything. Similarly, it's easy for players who go to the (1) events every couple months to not even remember what (4) is like, they just have a hazy memory of some early first edition wave when they got into the game.

My own personal opinion is that hyperspace is significantly better for "competitive" games. that being said, since probably 90% of games played on the planet are (3) or (4), I respect that those playstyles might want something different. Personally I think (1) and (2) should be completely hyperspace, and (3) about a 50-50. currently, we have a system where only (2) and about half of `(1) is hyperspace, which is kinda weird.

44 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I know this isn't the main point of your post, but it's probably worth noting right now that current hyperspace is definitely not the most balanced version of x-wing that's ever existed, by any reasonable benchmark.

I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm curious which version (accounting for available ships/points) that you'd consider to have been the most balanced version?

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

I mean, I get it: painting is the ultimate cool way to differentiate, as are colored bases and stems (neat). I have done neither to date, but I haven't fallen into this "ethical abyss" that I now understand exists. But, when I get close to such a wrong in generics with differing mods, I'll be sure to do something. I really don't want to be seen/known as anything but a fun opponent and I want those I play against to love it as much as they seem to have done to date in our games.

...and I also agree with Kermit, tea is the way to go.

Honestly, something as simple as different heights/# of pegs can potentially be just fine (ex: The tall Y-wings have ions, the short ones are dorsals /w protons).

Super easy differentiation at-a-glance for all involved, even using numbers.

5 hours ago, pheaver said:

The answer was always "I'm doing this for my benefit, not yours."

Same team.

40 minutes ago, Something Wicked said:

I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm curious which version (accounting for available ships/points) that you'd consider to have been the most balanced version?

That's a way harder question that "Is this the most balanced version"... I don't think I have enough information to make an educated statement. You'd probably need to measure the distance between the "good" and the "best" squads in a given meta and average it, which means you have to define good and best.

Basically, I don't think we have enough information to answer that, as it's much harder demonstrate something is the most balanced than it is to simply demonstrate one individual thing isn't the most balanced.

9 minutes ago, Brunas said:

That's a way harder question that "Is this the most balanced version"... I don't think I have enough information to make an educated statement. You'd probably need to measure the distance between the "good" and the "best" squads in a given meta and average it, which means you have to define good and best.

Basically, I don't think we have enough information to answer that, as it's much harder demonstrate something is the most balanced than it is to simply demonstrate one individual thing isn't the most balanced.

what a hideously cautious and nuanced take

go chug a Monster and come back with an actual opinion dang it

6 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

what a hideously cautious and nuanced take

go chug a Monster and come back with an actual opinion dang it

the most balanced formats are the ones I do the best in

advanced sensors and supernatural reflexes going up in priced ruined the game. r2 astromech was the most fair at 4 points, debate me.

Just now, Brunas said:

the most balanced formats are the ones I do the best in

advanced sensors and supernatural reflexes going up in priced ruined the game. r2 astromech was the most fair at 4 points, debate me.

better. thanks @Brunas

This is the furthest I've been into any 2.0 point change without being completely tired of it and wishing new points would come sooner; and in fact my biggest regret about this meta is it's ending soon so everyone can practice for extended.

If I were boss...

Half the large-ish events would be Hyperspace, half Extended. Ideally, they'd swap off every 3 months, so that you get a taste of each under the 6-month balance rotation. Winter and Summer for Hyperspace, Spring and Fall for Extended, or something like that. Of course, there ought to be fun side events in the alternate format, for any tournaments/conventions large enough.

However, if we want Worlds to be the premier competitive event, I think it ought to be Hyperspace (or alternate between Hyperspace and Extended every other year). I don't mind folks qualifying for it through Extended events, but the big burrito should be Hyperspace.

That is, presuming that Worlds being a competitive event is the goal. If it's just a big FFG X-Wing party, great, do Extended. Do whatever. But don't try to pass it off as the most important competition.

I'll grant: Boba Fett is a major destabilizing force in Hyperspace.

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

This is the furthest I've been into any 2.0 point change without being completely tired of it and wishing new points would come sooner; and in fact my biggest regret about this meta is it's ending soon so everyone can practice for extended.

?bigemote

1 hour ago, Kieransi said:

tbh there's a fairly pronounced pareto effect for X-Wing: roughly 20% of players account for approximately 80% of tournament attendance.

If you break it up further, you see that likely less than a third of players will ever, in their life, play at a system open level event (see bullet 1 below), and it's probably only at most 60% of players that will play at a hyperspace trial type event (the 30-50 player super competitive events, bullet 2).

I think there's roughly four levels of competition:

1. all-out competition (When we listen to a krayt cast this is probably what they're talking about. People are really trying to win, probably don't all know each other, and everyone probably has some variant of the same 10-20 lists)

2. "friendly" competition (store champs, etc. Many players take these games super seriously because for most, this is the most competitive event they will go to. It's a little different because there's definitely some kinda casual players here, or some very new players)

3. yes I care who wins ("casual"-night games, leagues, small weekend tourneys, etc. It's still competitive, and there can be joy/anger over outcomes of the games, which often manifests as "muh dice")

4. DWYWM (do what you want man - we're probably not following all the rules anyway. netlist-shaming and baby-seal-clubbing can occur here but in general it's pretty wholesome)

all of these types of play have their own shortcomings and strengths, but I think it's important to realize that many players really haven't had a taste of (1) and are instead thinking of (2) and (3) when they make prognostications about the meta or formats or anything. Similarly, it's easy for players who go to the (1) events every couple months to not even remember what (4) is like, they just have a hazy memory of some early first edition wave when they got into the game.

My own personal opinion is that hyperspace is significantly better for "competitive" games. that being said, since probably 90% of games played on the planet are (3) or (4), I respect that those playstyles might want something different. Personally I think (1) and (2) should be completely hyperspace, and (3) about a 50-50. currently, we have a system where only (2) and about half of `(1) is hyperspace, which is kinda weird.

So I actually really like this take. Like, actually a lot! It's coherent, nuanced, and makes a lot of sense.

My counter would be that, at least in my experience, (3) will ALWAYS be dictated by what's in (1) and (2), at least if there are any significant number of (1) and (2) level players involved. The reason is that for (3) players, their "level-up" challenge is to beat those (1) and (2) players, at least, as I see it anyway.

Consequently, what those (1) and (2) players are practicing with will dictate the (3) scene pretty heavily, at the very least around tournament seasons, which feels like most of the time anymore.

I would probably be okay with (or end up being okay with it eventually) it if all (1) events were Hyperspace. Hyperspace is, after all, the most skill-based format. I don't intend to deny it because it wouldn't be honest if I did. Hyperspace is also the competitive-curated format. Specifically, Hyperspace Worlds isn't something I'm strictly opposed to.

But it is very important (not for us but for the developers) that plenty of (2) events, at the very least, are Extended. Extended is X-Wing in its fullest (if not its purest) form. All balancing decisions for items not in hyperspace need to be made based on some kind of data and you don't get any meaningful data from (3) or (4) besides personal anecdotes, often from players who have no idea what they're talking about.

Whenever the time comes to cycle something into hyperspace from the wild wild world of Extended, how do they know if it will be broken monstrosity much worse than Boba/Fenn? If all (1) and (2) events are Hyperspace, I really don't know.

nuance, conversation, content... something is going very wrong here

that's fair I guess, I understand that the tiers of competition aren't completely isolated or something. I guess one thing I'd say is that we could probably just put a lid on extended and not worry about it competitively? Like maybe it's "close enough" now and doesn't need points updates going forward, especially if we just don't ever have extended tournaments. I think some people would still play it for fun no matter what. And I know personally, I don't hate practicing my hyperspace lists against extended stuff, experience flying is experience flying.

I don't think that 20-80 number is realistic.

More probable is that less than 10% of players have ever participated in a tournament and possibly significantly less.

1 hour ago, Kieransi said:

Like maybe it's "close enough" now and doesn't need points updates going forward, especially if we just don't ever have extended tournaments.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. As a very avid (2) (wanting to break into (3) but time hasn't been permitting) who enjoys Extended, the game balance isn't where I want it, and no Extended OP means it never will be, which would make me very sad and might make me choose a different game to main (nothing inherently wrong with that but I wouldn't prefer it).

1 hour ago, Kieransi said:

And I know personally, I don't hate practicing my hyperspace lists against extended stuff, experience flying is experience flying.

Kudos to you. I wish more people felt that way.

56 minutes ago, Icareane said:

More probable is that less than 10% of players have ever participated in a tournament and possibly significantly less.

This gets super dicey: how do you define "players?" If it's "People who own at least one X-Wing product" you're probably right. If it's "People that have ever played at a LGS" you may still be right. If it's "People who frequent an LGS" I suspect you may be wrong, but I'm definitely not certain. My LGS hosts a tournament every month, and I think most people who play there on any kind of regular basis have participated at least once.

Your scene may differ though.

Hyperspace is not better than extended. Just easier to omit tough stuff.

I wanna playmy favs and be able to do so competitively

hsving some tournaments be HS is a good thing though