I don't know about other swarm players, but having consistent and clear markings for my ships is very beneficial to me. The less brain power I have to use during the day to remember which is which, the better I am at the end of the day. A big improvement for me compared to 5 years ago is the introduction of the color matched dials and ship bases (not sure who introduced that first but it is brilliant!) and the new practice of keeping track of the ships that have engaged with their dials. At the end of the day it makes a real difference.

That said I remember from my 40K days that some players deliberately used larger/more ornate models for the more expendable units in their army to confuse opponent target priority.

All is fair in love and wargaming? That said, it's much more likely to confuse less skilled players than high level players so I dislike it in principle. Don't club baby seals?

Yeah, a lot of my opponents thanked me for clearly differentiating by droid models which ones had discords, etc. The answer was always "I'm doing this for my benefit, not yours." I'm the one playing the list for 6-10 rounds!

3 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

"any advantage you can get, you know?"

I'm really curious about this attitude from Ablazoned's opponent here. There is an "If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'" sort of mentality that is pretty common at nearly all levels of sport.

My other hobby is curling. (The Olympic "sport" with ice, brooms, and yelling.) There are a few ways to unobtrusively cheat in curling, mostly involved in sweeping. However, the curling community at all levels really pushes fair play, self-policing, honesty, and especially good sportsmanship. It's just baked into the culture and community of curling. There are some bad apples and occasional bad feelings but it is the exception and not the norm. It is possible to play a competitive game without "gamesmanship" being the norm. It takes a consistent effort both from the top down and the bottom up to do so.

The first paragraph of the World Curling Federation official Rules of Curling is this:

Quote

T H E S P I R I T O F C U R L I N G

Curling is a game of skill and of tradition. A shot well executed is a delight to see and it is also a fine thing to observe the time-honoured traditions of curling being applied in the true spirit of the game. Curlers play to win, but never to humble their opponents. A true curler never attempts to distract opponents, nor to prevent them from playing their best, and would prefer to lose rather than to win unfairly. Curlers never knowingly break a rule of the game, nor disrespect any of its traditions. Should they become aware that this has been done inadvertently, they will be the first to divulge the breach. While the main object of the game of curling is to determine the relative skill of the players, the spirit of curling demands good sportsmanship, kindly feeling and honourable conduct. This spirit should influence both the interpretation and the application of the rules of the game and also the conduct of all participants on and off the ice.

*emphasis added

I would love to see something similar written into the X-Wing tournament regulations. The closest we have is this sentence under unsporting conduct.

Quote

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner and to play within the rules and not abuse them.

I think we are in a pretty good spot as a game and as a community but it wouldn't hurt to be more explicit and consistent about such things.

FWIW- I enjoy losing at Curling more than losing at X-wing but that probably has more to do with dice than anything.

PS- I can hear the cynics now, "How can you police this?" And they're right, you can't. But, if you make this sort of thing the expectation, I think that positive things will result.

7 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

PS- Now, I can hear the cynics now, "How can you police this?" And they're right, you can't. But, if you make this sort of thing the expectation, I think that positive things will result.

There's something nice in having a positive, unenforceable statement of sporting conduct. Putting "Fly Casual" as the first paragraph in the rulebook.

19 hours ago, svelok said:

That's a very specific scenario and kind of interesting to talk about.

Should a TO intervene, if a player is flying two ships with common-sense-reversed models? Does this rise to the level of intervention? Obi-wan for Anakin, Anakin for Obi-wan is one example; I've seen some Fang/Syck mods flown side by side that would raise my eyebrows too.

As a player with some magnetized ships, it bugs me too but I don't have full control over the whims of magnetism and I don't want to fiddle with the ship (risking nudge/bumps of the ship or nearby components) to fix it.

I don't think I'd agree with "maybe we shouldn't allow magnetized ships" but I would probably consider it actually reasonable?

I'm currently in line to judge (not marshal) adepticon, if i was called to a table where that happened, and thats why i was called, i would require the player to switch the models (i guess it'd have to be obi/plo). I saw someone with a fang/syc painted similar, i'm not sure I would directly intervene there since the models are different, and there are other ships in the game (hi tie fighters) that if you glance at them from the top or side you actually can't tell which way is forward anyway, and have to rely on the printed arcs.

the as-yet unsatisfactorily named 7 ship FO list (3SF 4FO, all Zetas) seems like a nightmare from this perspective lol

unfortunately there's already lots of confusing stuff in this game, so it has to be based on intent, not a hard-and-fast rule. this is why judges exist in the first place

if I paint my whole squad to look like Plo's paintscheme (paint up some blue sunburst ARCs and then have two Plo aethersprites or something), yeah it's technically confusing but it's probably not intentionally so, it's because it's a cool paintscheme - and it's not more confusing than some stuff you can "legally" do anyway. if I have Obi and Plo in my list but the red aethersprite is Plo and the blue one is Obi I'm just intentionally being a jerk and trying to confuse my opponent.

once again, BISS > RAI > DWYWM > RAW

Half the time I can't remember which color is supposed to go with which pilot anyway... did we ever see Plo ship in the movies ?

8 minutes ago, Icareane said:

did we ever see Plo ship in the movies ?

Yes, when he was being shot down during Order 66.

Thing is, if everyone plays in the right spirit, (Like ALL the X Wing players I've met), none of this really matters.

Granted, not ALL of the X Wing players I've met have played with a golden attitude.... But the spirit was there.

I've mentioned it before, because I thought it was funny, my mate running Kylo in one of the 2 big bois in his triple Silencer list. It's not done with any kind of unsporting motive, he's an absolutely lovely guy and a pleasure to play against. It's just a bit of humour. An extra little wink.

I take it as my responsibility to keep track of everything in the other players squad, otherwise my decisions are less informed. If they, for a giggle, want to make that as confusing as all **** for me, I'm game for a laugh. I literally will not stop asking you stuff, so you better be aware of what you're buying into

Obviously, playing against new players, total strangers in far off lands, you're going to be as helpful and obliging as possible, to ensure a good exchange. I'm into that. If someone I've never met before comes to play me with all sorts of extra shenanigans, as long they're open about it and looking for fun times, it's fine.

It gets a bit abstract when discussing these things on a forum, but when we come together with other X Wingers, it's all in the social interaction.

There are obviously people who are going to leverage every snide little advantage and play with a close, competition mindset. They're going to do it anyway, regardless of any measures taken. All we can do is be the the positive and friendly majority that we are, and carry on Flying Casual. It's literally all we can do, reach out to people and create that atmosphere around our games. Maintain the (vast) majority.

I feel that when communities begin to get expectant and overly suspicious of advantage imbalances and gamesmansbip, they only tend to create more. People start to approach games against strangers a little more quietly, with a bit more will to win 'fairly', and it spreads.

When we're at these bigger tourneys, we all do need to just keep on having the best time, making an effort to keep the whole place fun and lively.

Pushing the boundaries of what's acceptable in a communal experience is a social thing, rather than something that can be controlled by written word.

I mean, I probably accept that there are areas and arenas where the ones having a laugh and paying good, friendly games are in the minority. At that point, I don't think it's worth playing that game.

So I hope none of you are feeling that way?

On 3/4/2020 at 9:16 PM, Boom Owl said:

Passive mods should always be blockable to switch them off.

Hitting obstacles should prevent all actions and disable passive mods

Premovement repostion shouldnt exist at i5 and i6 or probably at all.

Double reposition should require stress specifically to prevent k turns and provide dial intel.

Stress should disable passive modification, to punish dial result adjustments.

Linked actions should always require stress (for same reasons double repo should)

Sense and other dial checkers shouldnt exist.

Multi arcs shouldnt have access to linked boosts or stressless boost + passives.

Completely re-write the force charge rules...and add charges to the chargeless force users.

Enforce constraints that reward the skills required to move first well. But mostly just start by changing the force charge rules...there so bad.

I realize this is super backtracking, but this is a very lovely and succinct manifesto of your philosophy. Is there a way to put it on your profile or something? I feel like it's the subtext under almost everything you post, and you probably have some of the clearest and most consistent priorities of anyone on here.

It's kind of beautiful (as much as I might disagree with most of it).

2 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

I'm really curious about this attitude from Ablazoned's opponent here. There is an "If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'" sort of mentality that is pretty common at nearly all levels of sport.

I think I pretty much agree with what people are saying, but I will also admit that I've at least considered the perspective of someone trying the coloration thing and tried to entertain the mindset without assuming it's some kind of ethical failing.

Imagine this scenario in a battle- the feared blood stripe wing is known for its deadly skill. A commander knows he's going up against it so when the blood stripe ships show up on visuals he directs his strongest forces towards them...only to discover his flank getting torn apart, because the blood stripe pilots switched ships with a bunch of rookies. Seems sorta valid? Now, I realize that some people draw the line at words on cards, and I pretty much agree but I don't hate people who go a little further within the rules. It's up to me to keep mental track of the score and when it comes down to it, I can always ask which ship is which. As long as they always reply openly, I can't really get mad, IMO.

Here's another example. I was playing against a mux list the other night. Mux wasn't in combat the first couple rounds, but when he did come in for the first time, he put plo koon at I0. Later, during the next planning phase, I realized that plo never fired. I remember noting out loud "oh, I guess that's a side benefit of mux- sometimes he makes you forget to shoot entirely." Would I have given my opponent the shot? Absolutely! Was I mad that I missed the opportunity? Only at myself.

3 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

Here's another example. I was playing against a mux list the other night. Mux wasn't in combat the first couple rounds, but when he did come in for the first time, he put plo koon at I0. Later, during the next planning phase, I realized that plo never fired. I remember noting out loud "oh, I guess that's a side benefit of mux- sometimes he makes you forget to shoot entirely." Would I have given my opponent the shot? Absolutely! Was I mad that I missed the opportunity? Only at myself.

That has been specifically addressed. The bolded section as a strategy would be straight-up cheating. Rules are explicit: all ships must engage and both players are responsible for maintaining board state.

My personal philosophy is that only the following should decide a game of X-wing:

• The ability to choose maneuvers better than my opponent.
• The ability to activate ships in the correct order.
• The ability to choose the correct action.
• The ability to choose the correct target.
• The monkey-fracking dice.

I accept that list-building is integral to success in X-Wing but I resent it.

Worlds and Primes should be hyperspace only

4 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

That has been specifically addressed. The bolded section as a strategy would be straight-up cheating. Rules are explicit: all ships must engage and both players are responsible for maintaining board state.

True...but what's going to happen if we both legitimately forget to activate a guy? Am i really going to be assigned "penalty points" for forgetting to take a free shot with one of my ships? And at some point there's simply no rolling back the gamestate.

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

Yes, when he was being shot down during Order 66.

By 2 ARC 170's. He obviously lost the mirror match.

10 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

True...but what's going to happen if we both legitimately forget to activate a guy? Am i really going to be assigned "penalty points" for forgetting to take a free shot with one of my ships? And at some point there's simply no rolling back the gamestate.

@#$% happens I guess. I'm just saying that choosing Mux because it might cause an opponent to fail to shoot with a ship is actively attempting to break the written rules of the game.

18 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Worlds and Primes should be hyperspace only

You keep saying that. Could you please stop? I'm afraid the devs are listening. 😢

41 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Worlds and Primes should be hyperspace only

22 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You keep saying that. Could you please stop? I'm afraid the devs are listening. 😢

Worlds and Primes should be hyperspace only

I reserve my right to change my opinion if in the next points/format update(s) extended is in a much better place and/or screw up Hyperspace again. I'm REALLY hoping it's not the later of the two, but they did it before...

1 minute ago, RStan said:

Worlds and Primes should be hyperspace only

I reserve my right to change my opinion if in the next points/format update(s) put extended in a much better place and/or screw up Hyperspace again. I'm REALLY hoping it's not the later of the two, but they did it before...

X-wing should be Hyperspace Only

25 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

You keep saying that. Could you please stop? I'm afraid the devs are listening. 😢

No. They need to hear it more because its correct. But also why on earth would they read any of this?

Hi Max. Thanks for making a pretty good game that we enjoy.

6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

No. They need to hear it more because its correct. But also why on earth would they read any of this?

Hi Max. Thanks for making a pretty good game that we enjoy.

"I feel like thumbing through that ungodly 1400 page thread today"

-not the devs

43 minutes ago, Three Eye Joe said:

X-wing should be Hyperspace Only

RIP 90% of X-Wing content.

IDK it's like it's a crime on this thread to enjoy flying the VCX anymore.

But it's true: Once all of OP is hyperspace (may it never be!) all of LGS X-Wing will be hyperspace too. When was the last time your LGS had an Epic night? That's what would happen to extended. And that's an outcome that to me is extremely undesirable for both the value of our collections and the long-term balance of the game and even of hyperspace.

Think about it: Next season they'll be cycling some stuff out of hyperspace and cycling some other stuff in. But wait! What if that stuff they cycle in is super over/underpriced? How would they know if not from OP data? And how will they get that data if Extended OP isn't a thing?

I'm fine with a ban list. If you think AS Guri, Precog, SNR, Ensnare, 7B, Cassian, Sense, HTD, Dormitz, etc. are that much of a problem, sure you can soft ban them and/or turn their soft ban into a hard ban. Personally I think prohibitive pricing is the more interesting solution but just hasn't been applied properly yet though I admit it doesn't work in all cases (such as AS Guri). But if it doesn't work, sure, errata or ban the cards (I'd prefer errata if it's that grievous a problem, but OK, ban works).

I'm not fine with a ban list that covers 90% of what exists in X-Wing. It makes further extended balancing efforts nearly impossible, and further hyperspace balancing efforts more or less a shot in the dark. Make no mistake: The reason Hyperspace is so good this season is because Extended was so good last season! The devs had information to go on based on the outcome of a season of extended that was better balanced than any before it.

21 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

You guys are talking past each other.

@Tlfj200 is talking about people who deliberately and consciously don't take steps to remove confusion from component identity. He's not talking about people who do it without thinking (that's just inconsiderate, it's not unethical).

But of course he's right, @clanofwolves. You can't possibly think that someone with eight ships on the board, each functionally different in a minor or major way, who thinks, "Yeah, figuring out which is which is that guy's problem" isn't being a jerk ... can you?

I think you must be correct on talking past each other, for I couldn't honestly understand -in my world- what @Tlfj200 was trying to get me to see with such passion, but looking back through the scroll up, page back, I get it.

CIS swarms are a completely unique issue I have come to understand. I don't play CIS personally and haven't played against one with lots of different upgrades on their droids (just struts or no), and it didn't seem to be that complex at all for me. I simply wanted to defend anyone playing this game with the pieces as designed --who in no way has the intent to deceive nor plays to "gamesmanship" or whatever-- but openly wants everyone to have a blast of enjoyment, that's all. I will admit, I was a little taken-a-back, but then I didn't understand the core reasoning that powered the discussion/emotion I hopped into when it was well underway.

I mean, I get it: painting is the ultimate cool way to differentiate, as are colored bases and stems (neat). I have done neither to date, but I haven't fallen into this "ethical abyss" that I now understand exists. But, when I get close to such a wrong in generics with differing mods, I'll be sure to do something. I really don't want to be seen/known as anything but a fun opponent and I want those I play against to love it as much as they seem to have done to date in our games.

...and I also agree with Kermit, tea is the way to go.

18 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

RIP 90% of X-Wing content.

You're stating a lot of Hyperbole as fact. I was also being hyperbolic I guess. Extended has a place. I would just prefer it far away from any table I'm playing at right now.

2 minutes ago, Three Eye Joe said:

Extended has a place.

Casual night between two old players.