1 hour ago, Brunas said:

If you're happy to cap bids at 10 points, why not just have the player order be randomly determined at the start of the game with a 0 point bid cap...?

90% of bids are below 10pts. The lists people have problems with like some trip aces and boba fenns and guri fenns are the lists that take advantage of no limits and some factions cant even attempt to compete with that bid without losing to everything else.

Having no limits in a game invites abuse, ie attani mindlink, manaroo 1e ability, etc.

I'm honestly a little mystified by the overall take on Bobas power. Just exposing my own ignorance here really.... I sure as $#%@ don't know something nobody else does, so I must be missing something.

He is the best thing in HS ofc, but there's no one man army's in this game.

I just pretty much always have good, even times against him, given more or less equal skill. He's not a huge problem to me. Unlike droids, where my brain just can't cope. I have a comfortable time planning around just 2 or 3 enemy ships. This is just my own personal oddity or something.

As an occasional Boba player, never with Maul, the title is definitely no.1 on the degeneracy for me. I know Maul adds a lot and gives you much more freedom to Yolo, but I plan, and build, heavily for Slave 1 and definitely use it a couple of times in every game. With Maul out, PerCo/0-0-0 and title in, he's still a proper badass.

Title out, people lean more heavily on Maul. But the degeneracy there is a lot more manageable imo. So my vote would go on dropping Slave 1, which is definitely a strange inclusion in the context of other bans.

Preparing for SO, I was not particularly concerned by Boba. Fat base, 2ag, I bring heavy guns and obstacles. I was much more focussed on dealing with Fangs, (and vaguely accepting CIS brainfarts). Fangs are very difficult to avoid and have to be countered in fairly specific ways. If you can deal with them, you have more freedom in how you deal with Boba.

At our SO, I played against him twice. Beat him once, by managing his Fangs and just beating the crap out of him. Lost the other to bloody Dengar ffs, I had Boba where I wanted him

BoFrost is a different kettle of fish. The list succeeds less because of Boba=win, imo, and more because it's loaded with control elements that prevent you from flying how you want, which is key to fighting Boba. I have no idea how I'd deal with that list. A different blend of upgrades there make for a much less scary proposition though.

TL:DR. Y'all need ta git gud and just outfly Bob

...and nerf CIS because I personally can't handle them....

obviously kidding, please feel free to ridicule me

1 minute ago, wurms said:

90% of bids are below 10pts. The lists people have problems with like some trip aces and boba fenns and guri fenns are the lists that take advantage of no limits and some factions cant even attempt to compete with that bid without losing to everything else.

Having no limits in a game invites abuse, ie attani mindlink, manaroo 1e ability, etc.

The question I'm asking is, what are small bids adding to the game that's interesting. In ace mirrors, it's quickly just going to become a coinflip at 10 points. If that's the case, why not just make it always a coinflip and save a lot of complexity?

Count to 200 with Vader! Heightened + Passives to fire at I7 and br when needed! Toss in Mag Pulse to neuter an enemy I6 attack!

5 minutes ago, wurms said:

90% of bids are below 10pts. The lists people have problems with like some trip aces and boba fenns and guri fenns are the lists that take advantage of no limits and some factions cant even attempt to compete with that bid without losing to everything else.

Having no limits in a game invites abuse, ie attani mindlink, manaroo 1e ability, etc.

Does this answer the question of "why not get rid of bids as a mechanic"? For the record, I haven't made any secret of being completely against bidding as mechanic. It's a variable-cost, insanely powerful, broken upgrade that you never lose until either all your ships are dead, or until someone else is willing to abuse the rule even more than you are.

It's bad for X-Wing. Get rid of it.

I consider bids above 10 points as a good indicator that the involved ships are too cheap \_(ツ)_/

e: as completely different topic: what is a good start date for wave 6 data? We still have an event where it won't be allowed this weekend. But I'm more interested in the effect of the points change. So, I'm torn between the 9th of January, the 31st, and some ridiculous other date later on. Help?

27 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I consider bids above 10 points as a good indicator that the involved ships are too cheap \_(ツ)_/

As a slogan:

If the bids are this deep, the ships are too cheap!

28 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Does this answer the question of "why not get rid of bids as a mechanic"? For the record, I haven't made any secret of being completely against bidding as mechanic. It's a variable-cost, insanely powerful, broken upgrade that you never lose until either all your ships are dead, or until someone else is willing to abuse the rule even more than you are.

It's bad for X-Wing. Get rid of it.

I guess I'm the oddball who likes the existence of bidding, but just wishes it was less powerful.

I don't like to try to have to count to 200, to fill up a list with upgrades I'm not interested in, just because there's nothing better to do with the points.

On 10/17/2018 at 11:41 AM, GreenDragoon said:

What if the bid was immediately added to the points destroyed? Meaning a list with a bid can never win 200-0?

shameless plug, i have never found an older suggestion. And it popped up everywhere after this.

I still have no good solution to make my dream less complicated: bids are lost with the first points scored. That makes 200-0 possible but extremely unlikely.
You would have to calculate the score differently then. Instead of adding up the destroyed, you would have to subtract the living from 200.

E.g. a 191 fenngang list with two recruits surviving would do 200-41-41 = 118 for your opponent. Instead of the 109 from Fenn (68) + Recruit (41).

But that seems to be too complicated, especially because it is a subtle but important change from today.

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

If the bids are this deep, the ships are too cheap!

I find a 10+ bid a good indicator on three ships lists that something is amiss. Two ships less so.

3 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I guess I'm the oddball who likes the existence of bidding, but just wishes it was less powerful.

I don't like to try to have to count to 200, to fill up a list with upgrades I'm not interested in, just because there's nothing better to do with the points.

Team same team.

To my statement before, Boba Fenn can take more upgrades, but a cannon on Boba is superflouos, and a torpedo on a Fang is a waste of points, particularly on Fenn. Fenn would gladly spend more points on a mod slot, but he doesn't have one. If Fenn could take a mod, we'd see less deep bids.

45 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

With Maul out, PerCo/0-0-0 and title in, he's still a proper badass.

Title out, people lean more heavily on Maul. But the degeneracy there is a lot more manageable imo. So my vote would go on dropping Slave 1, which is definitely a strange inclusion in the context of other bans.

Yeah, this was why I brought up the topic of Slave 1 and not Maul. Slave 1 is the only premaneuver reposition before movement left in hyperspace aside from Striker/Reapers. With Advanced Sensors, Precog Reflexes, and Supernatural Reflexes gone, he is king of reposition.

I still see plenty of of PerCo Boba's flying around which, if you get rid of Maul, would make the go-to Boba build even cheaper.

@Cuz05 : can you share that Boba/ Dengar build?

Asking for a friend.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

I consider bids above 10 points as a good indicator that the involved ships are too cheap \_(ツ)_/

Brolencers + Holo/Rush confirmed healthy.

Just now, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Brolencers + Holo/Rush confirmed healthy.

haha, cue "that's not how any of it works!"

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

I'm honestly a little mystified by the overall take on Bobas power. Just exposing my own ignorance here really.... I sure as $#%@ don't know something nobody else does, so I must be missing something.

He is the best thing in HS ofc, but there's no one man army's in this game.

Yeah he kind of is

29 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

To my statement before, Boba Fenn can take more upgrades, but a cannon on Boba is superflouos, and a torpedo on a Fang is a waste of points, particularly on Fenn. Fenn would gladly spend more points on a mod slot, but he doesn't have one. If Fenn could take a mod, we'd see less deep bids.

Nobody is suggesting forcing you to play a 200-point list.

If 183-point Boba Fenn is a good enough list to beat 200 points of ships, awesome.

If it's not good enough to beat 200 points of ships unless you're allowed to have a crazy-powerful and indestructible 17-point "I get to move last" upgrade for all of your ships, then ... that's exactly the problem. Get better at the actual game.

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

The question I'm asking is, what are small bids adding to the game that's interesting. In ace mirrors, it's quickly just going to become a coinflip at 10 points. If that's the case, why not just make it always a coinflip and save a lot of complexity?

I feel bids are still important for the game. For instance 5x in hyperspace is 200pts. You want to move after it, you can make a small bid. 5Awings has no bid or a small bid. You can have a 6pt bid and move after them. Its can still be a piece of list building. Aces still want a bid, and it should be an option. But there should always be a counter, and that is a 10pt bid for that coinflip. If you REALLY hate fenn or soontir you can make a list with i6 and 10pt bid and at least stand a chance of moving after them without completely neutering your list trying to get a 20pt bid.

Some factions are just not built to competitively have a large bid, so capping ot puts all factions on equal playing field.

I didn't play wh40k seriously, but while xtc was tied to the etc got a lot of exposure to their list building and... Let's say that forcing people to get 1 hq and 2 troops often led to list having 10 scouts and 1 captain on a bike while the rest of the list were airplanes...

1 hour ago, wurms said:

I feel bids are still important for the game. For instance 5x in hyperspace is 200pts. You want to move after it, you can make a small bid. 5Awings has no bid or a small bid. You can have a 6pt bid and move after them. Its can still be a piece of list building. Aces still want a bid, and it should be an option. But there should always be a counter, and that is a 10pt bid for that coinflip. If you REALLY hate fenn or soontir you can make a list with i6 and 10pt bid and at least stand a chance of moving after them without completely neutering your list trying to get a 20pt bid.

Some factions are just not built to competitively have a large bid, so capping ot puts all factions on equal playing field.

If you want to move after 5X (guaranteed), you can just... be higher initiative than them. The tools for what you're looking for already exist.

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Nobody is suggesting forcing you to play a 200-point list.

If 183-point Boba Fenn is a good enough list to beat 200 points of ships, awesome.

If it's not good enough to beat 200 points of ships unless you're allowed to have a crazy-powerful and indestructible 17-point "I get to move last" upgrade for all of your ships, then ... that's exactly the problem. Get better at the actual game.

SAME

TEAM

also boy is a 17 point schrondinger's upgrade that's attached to all of your ships and none of them at the same time stupid.

What do you think is worth more, casual reader of this thread - half of Boba when he's worth 111, or a full health fenn rau at 71 points? Turns out half of boba + the 18 point bid you have, of course, unless the opposing fenn is bidding more than 3.

23 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I didn't play wh40k seriously, but while xtc was tied to the etc got a lot of exposure to their list building and... Let's say that forcing people to get 1 hq and 2 troops often led to list having 10 scouts and 1 captain on a bike while the rest of the list were airplanes...

Legion is already there. I see @Tlfj200 annoyed that he has to "bring their 3 rebel troopers along just to spectate during the game"

1 hour ago, Icareane said:

@Cuz05 : can you share that Boba/ Dengar build?

Asking for a friend.

Not exactly I'm afraid, but the 3rd ship was Nom Lumb. He was at 197, so fill to taste? There were definitely cannons involved.

I presume most of it was on Boba. Boba definitely did not have 2 focus tokens.

Bid wise, I've won a couple games with my 88pt Precog Vader purely because he had an invisible 10pt upgrade on top of that. Feelsbadman. Was robbery and I'm a nice guy

Didn't even need the bid in those games....

13 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Legion is already there. I see @Tlfj200 annoyed that he has to "bring their 3 rebel troopers along just to spectate during the game"

They count towards my activation count... so they have that going for them, I guess.

What if a player's bid was added to the opponent's mov if the opponent won the match? Doesn't stop points fortressing, but makes for a bit of a incentivizing bonus for the steep bidder's opponent over the current only what was "killed".

2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

I find a 10+ bid a good indicator on three ships lists that something is amiss. Two ships less so.

I mean, that's fair.

But it's not as good of a slogan as "If the bids are this deep, the ships are too cheap."

RE: The hullabaloo on Boba in Hyperspace. Boba is fine. Despite Scum being my favored faction I don't really play him alot because he's a bit easy mode, but the issue really isn't Boba Fett in Hyperspace. It's our willingness to construct lists to run his Mandalorian **** out of it.

Neat Ways To Beat Boba

1) Shoot Him For Real with modded Ace or generic-spam Mag-Pulse Warheads to deplete his offense (can only remove one deplete a round BTW) uh you like that jam?

2) Shoot Him For Real with Ace or generic-spam Discord Missiles (as seen in recent TX SOS)

3) Shoot Him For Real with modded Ace or generic-spam Plasmas (see above)

4) Intimidation Blanket Party 2020; multiple talent generics, Mining Guild TIEs, Feroph, Arvel, Oicunn,

5) Make him dance like everyone's watching with lots of Tractor Beam M3-As

6) Han Freakin' Solo strafing like The Man He Is

7) A sad expert Soontir player mastering Vonreg's range 2-3 attacks

8 ) Multiple Outmanuever low init all angle attacks, or I6 Outmanuever

9) Snap Shot spam and a little luck because you're a nice person and you deserve it

10) Hello Midnight!

11) Blackout Obstructed Excellence

12) Runaway 5 RZ-2s this is my butt now I shoot you

13) 4 double tap B-Wings pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew

The things is many of us are unwilling to build some of these elements into our lists. Because they get countered by other things (which is a GOOD thing, and a testimony to Hyperspace actually.) So no one is really TRYING out much of the above... yet.

It's been barely 5 weeks. Give it time.

11 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

What if a player's bid was added to the opponent's mov if the opponent won the match? Doesn't stop points fortressing, but makes for a bit of a incentivizing bonus for the steep bidder's opponent over the current only what was "killed".

Tournaments are mostly moving to graduated cuts, so this would make little difference.

Also, it would just translate into a different crusade on how MoV is stupid, we shouldn't use it, and literally just flipping coins to see who makes cut would be a better tiebreaker.

2 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

Boba is fine. Despite Scum being my favored faction I don't really play him alot because he's a bit easy mode, but the issue really isn't Boba Fett in Hyperspace. It's our willingness to construct lists to run his Mandalorian **** out of it.

Neat Ways To Beat Boba

1) Shoot Him For Real with modded Ace or generic-spam Mag-Pulse Warheads to deplete his offense (can only remove one deplete a round BTW) uh you like that jam?

2) Shoot Him For Real with Ace or generic-spam Discord Missiles (as seen in recent TX SOS)

3) Shoot Him For Real with modded Ace or generic-spam Plasmas (see above)

4) Intimidation Blanket Party 2020; multiple talent generics, Mining Guild TIEs, Feroph, Arvel, Oicunn,

5) Make him dance like everyone's watching with lots of Tractor Beam M3-As

6) Han Freakin' Solo strafing like The Man He Is

7) A sad expert Soontir player mastering Vonreg's range 2-3 attacks

8 ) Multiple Outmanuever low init all angle attacks, or I6 Outmanuever

9) Snap Shot spam and a little luck because you're a nice person and you deserve it

10) Hello Midnight!

11) Blackout Obstructed Excellence

12) Runaway 5 RZ-2s this is my butt now I shoot you

13) 4 double tap B-Wings pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew

The things is many of us are unwilling to build some of these elements into our lists. Because they get countered by other things (which is a GOOD thing, and a testimony to Hyperspace actually.) So no one is really TRYING out much of the above... yet.

It's been barely 5 weeks. Give it time.

I'm not building a list to specifically counter one overpowered list that then loses to everything else i'm afraid, and I think a lot of that list is rather hopeful theories. The point is Boba is so OP that he's warping the whole meta.

11 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I didn't play wh40k seriously, but while xtc was tied to the etc got a lot of exposure to their list building and... Let's say that forcing people to get 1 hq and 2 troops often led to list having 10 scouts and 1 captain on a bike while the rest of the list were airplanes...

there was definitly a ton of min maxxing, but 40k armies relative to x wing are also bigger. a "centerpiece" unit in 40k would be what, 20% of your force at extreme max? I bet if x wing games were a little bigger, the design team (max) could figure out a way to make it work. With the mobility in x wing, things are harder to hide, and unless both player don't want to, they tend to interact a lot.