4 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

fantastic filler ships, but not exceptional for spam

EXACTLY WHAT EVERY GENERIC IS/SHOULD BE.

Sorry I say this a lot, but it's because it's always been true but no one has believed it until it started being proven. I'm just happy to be exonerated.

Spam being good is a sign something is busted, either in rules or in points. Generics should be good, spam never will be unless they're already too good elsewhere and there will always be better lists than any given spam list unless the points are seriously screwed up..

57 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

EXACTLY WHAT EVERY GENERIC IS/SHOULD BE.

Sorry I say this a lot, but it's because it's always been true but no one has believed it until it started being proven. I'm just happy to be exonerated.

Spam being good is a sign something is busted, either in rules or in points. Generics should be good, spam never will be unless they're already too good elsewhere and there will always be better lists than any given spam list unless the points are seriously screwed up..

I disagree. Spam is fun.

8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I disagree. Spam is fun.

8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I disagree. Spam is fun.

I never said it wasn't fun! I love 6x TIE Bombers or 6x TIE Interceptors.

I still don't think those lists should be good though. Okay is fine, especially for an experienced player, but not above average.

7 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I never said it wasn't fun! I love 6x TIE Bombers or 6x TIE Interceptors.

I still don't think those lists should be good though. Okay is fine, especially for an experienced player, but not above average.

From my perspective the Aces are evil

3 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I never said it wasn't fun! I love 6x TIE Bombers or 6x TIE Interceptors.

I still don't think those lists should be good though. Okay is fine, especially for an experienced player, but not above average.

What makes a list being good (above average) as spam a bad thing? How is that fundamentally broken design? I’m not even saying exceptional, just good.

59 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I disagree. Spam is fun.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

From my perspective the Aces are evil

6 minutes ago, RStan said:

And who's the only Force User that flies a small base and went to killing Jedi before actually becoming one? The one with spammed Proud friends, nameless Fanatical aces, and flies like a fancy Soontir Fel!

#notallforceusers

1 hour ago, dsul413 said:

What makes a list being good (above average) as spam a bad thing? How is that fundamentally broken design? I’m not even saying exceptional, just good.

I can't speak for @ClassicalMoser, but for mine, it's because multiplying a number until you hit 200 is lazy and you shouldn't be rewarded for it. Mixed lists are actually interesting and lead to more interesting games, and so should be heavily encouraged.

This is why, as an example, I have much more respect for Sinker Swarms than I do TIE Swarms. The Republic list has to manage 2-3 ship types with different dials and base sizes; the Imperial list just sets 1 dial and copies it 6-8 times.

5 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Mixed lists are actually interesting

Same team. I think a couple spam lists have to exist for decent mixed lists to be possible though. Unless we get init pips or something.

7 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Same team. I think a couple spam lists have to exist for decent mixed lists to be possible though. Unless we get init pips or something.

are we mad at the fang gang?

Half-serious question, for benchmarking, because it's the same chassis, but not all the same pilot.

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

are we mad at the fang gang?

Half-serious question, for benchmarking, because it's the same chassis, but not all the same pilot.

Since you can only run 4, no?

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

are we mad at the fang gang?

Half-serious question, for benchmarking, because it's the same chassis, but not all the same pilot.

Im not. Ace Squad Squad Gang is fun. So is Squad Squad Squad Squad Squad Squad Squad Gang. And other variations. Whatever has more small base ships that are vulnerable to legitimate in game counter play has my support. Fang Gang qualifies.

Basically spam lists can be fun. Mixed init lists are typically the most interesting.

12 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

are we mad at the fang gang?

Half-serious question, for benchmarking, because it's the same chassis, but not all the same pilot.

Fang gang fang gang fang gang fang gang

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I never said it wasn't fun! I love 6x TIE Bombers or 6x TIE Interceptors.

I still don't think those lists should be good though. Okay is fine, especially for an experienced player, but not above average.

If spam is fun, why shouldn't it be good? I like x-wing the most when it's fun, so I want the fun things to be good

7 minutes ago, gadwag said:

If spam is fun, why shouldn't it be good? I like x-wing the most when it's fun, so I want the fun things to be good

I kinda think people don’t like spam because it is hard to talk about. Reading out a list of names and squads with just “8 /fo” gives no synergies to talk about, it’s all about what you do on the board.

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

are we mad at the fang gang?

Half-serious question, for benchmarking, because it's the same chassis, but not all the same pilot.

No, I mean same-pilot spam, or same-pilot-and-upgrades spam.

3 hours ago, dsul413 said:

What makes a list being good (above average) as spam a bad thing? How is that fundamentally broken design? I’m not even saying exceptional, just good.

When you double down on one play style that should open you up to hard counters. Flexibility is important in life and should be in game as well. If it works, then either that play style is too strong or that ship is too cheap.

15 minutes ago, gadwag said:

If spam is fun, why shouldn't it be good? I like x-wing the most when it's fun, so I want the fun things to be good

Sure, but which ones? I expect 1-1-2-3-3 is better than 2-2-2-2-2, but I also think XXXBB or XXXAA would do better in general, as they have different answers for different counters.

In theory, anyway.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Same team. I think a couple spam lists have to exist for decent mixed lists to be possible though. Unless we get init pips or something.

Same team.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Basically spam lists can be fun. Mixed init lists are typically the most interesting.

Same team.

My opinion: Breakpoints do not matter. Pretty much at all. Price the items correctly because it’s very very unlikely that the ideal list can be derived by cut-and-paste-to-200

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Sure, but which ones? I expect 1-1-2-3-3 is better than 2-2-2-2-2, but I also think XXXBB or XXXAA would do better in general, as they have different answers for different counters.

In theory, anyway.

I'm even more confused now, I'm afraid. I was under the impression that you find spam fun but don't want spam to be powerful in the meta

35 minutes ago, gadwag said:

I'm even more confused now, I'm afraid. I was under the impression that you find spam fun but don't want spam to be powerful in the meta

It’s more that I don’t think it can be unless something is way too cheap, which I also don’t want. Even if it is, mixed squads will usually be better. I don’t want to make spam lists good because it makes other lists even better. Spam doesn’t end up on top but you do get OP pieces in the mix (see quadjumpers and phantoms at the start of 2.0).

5x Blue Squadron Escort is a spam list because it’s just counting to 200 on one pilot.

You’ll probably see better results by creating a more varied/flexible list like BBXX or XXXAA.

I wouldn’t consider Salads or ace + miniswarm to be spam lists.

Does that make any more sense?

3 hours ago, DR4CO said:

I can't speak for @ClassicalMoser, but for mine, it's because multiplying a number until you hit 200 is lazy and you shouldn't be rewarded for it. Mixed lists are actually interesting and lead to more interesting games, and so should be heavily encouraged.

This is why, as an example, I have much more respect for Sinker Swarms than I do TIE Swarms. The Republic list has to manage 2-3 ship types with different dials and base sizes; the Imperial list just sets 1 dial and copies it 6-8 times.

I like mixed lists also, don't get me wrong. Prefer them actually. Building a list and flying the list are not the same thing, and we've all seen people get creative with lists of the same ship chassis but flown in interesting fashions. Mixed doesn't mean interesting though - rebel beef last year was "mixed" but just one-forwarded to victory and sucked to play and play against. But it won.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

When you double down on one play style that should open you up to hard counters. Flexibility is important in life and should be in game as well. If it works, then either that play style is too strong or that ship is too cheap.

So aces lists should also not be strong because its one play style in a list, even if the ships are different chassis? Because bringing only aces should also probably open a player up to hard counters too. That may be included in this "spam" discussion but I'm not sure it is.

Take the top table example from LVO - Sear Swarm (pretty classic spam of vultures, even if there is an enabler - its 7 vultures with struts) and the truly mixed list of Soontir + Inqs + Jendon across the board. That was a tremendously fun match to watch because in game decisions mattered, even if it was how all the vultures would fly. Watching how Paul spread the swarm on the initial engage was awesome.

It may just be me, but I'm trying to look past the archetype a bit for this discussion and just looking at how lists fly. I agree that typically variety lists are going to have...more variety, which is often more interesting.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

It’s more that I don’t think it can be unless something is way too cheap, which I also don’t want.

I get you. I agree that spam lists are generally weaker than lists that mix things up a little to counter their weaknesses, unless the spam lists are flying insanely undercosted ships. The best example I can think of is 8 first order ties - undoubtedly powerful and efficient, but probably not as strong as mixing in some named pilots and hard hitters to punch through the green dice.

6 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

So aces lists should also not be strong because its one play style in a list, even if the ships are different chassis?

Moser isn't saying "having a single playstyle weakens a list" he's saying "having only identical ships weakens a list". A good aces list will bring a variety of tools to the table, and really good aces lists won't necessarily lock themselves into one playstyle (see how Oli flew Vader in the final at worlds)

1 hour ago, gadwag said:

I get you. I agree that spam lists are generally weaker than lists that mix things up a little to counter their weaknesses, unless the spam lists are flying insanely undercosted ships. The best example I can think of is 8 first order ties - undoubtedly powerful and efficient, but probably not as strong as mixing in some named pilots and hard hitters to punch through the green dice.

Moser isn't saying "having a single playstyle weakens a list" he's saying "having only identical ships weakens a list". A good aces list will bring a variety of tools to the table, and really good aces lists won't necessarily lock themselves into one playstyle (see how Oli flew Vader in the final at worlds)

Playing devil’s advocate, a versatile ship chassis or build of ship can bring a variety of tools to the table - even in number.

Moser said doubling down on one play style so I assumed he meant play style and not simply types of ships.

Just trying to stoke conversation is all. I certainly don’t think generic spam swarms should rule the game. I do think there is room for them to be competitive with the other types of lists we will see.

I guess it’s up to FFG at this point

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Even if it is, mixed squads will usually be better. I don’t want to make spam lists good because it makes other lists even better

True dat. But that won't stop me, especially since FO's competitive options for lists of 2 or more of a kind in a 3 ship list have increased. Thanks to wave 6, joining Kylo 2U and 2 sI5lencer + FO, there are the legit:

Kylo + 2SFalpha

Kylo + 2BAces

Oops, all Silencer aces!

Oops, all unique BA's!

Sometimes, you just want to look at only Silencers on your end of the table. In a fun small tourney, nothing is really lost doing that.

44 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

True dat. But that won't stop me, especially since FO's competitive options for lists of 2 or more of a kind in a 3 ship list have increased. Thanks to wave 6, joining Kylo 2U and 2 sI5lencer + FO, there are the legit:

Kylo + 2SFalpha

Kylo + 2BAces

Oops, all Silencer aces!

Oops, all unique BA's!

Sometimes, you just want to look at only Silencers on your end of the table. In a fun small tourney, nothing is really lost doing that.

But what about Oops all B-wings?