Hot take - Zizi Tlo is probably better than you think it is, and is going to start pulling Resistance up by its bootstraps.

Just now, Dreadai said:

Hot take - Zizi Tlo is probably better than you think it is, and is going to start pulling Resistance up by its bootstraps.

...*tests take* seems pretty cold, probably leave it in the oven for a few hours

4 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

Hot take - Zizi Tlo is probably better than you think it is, and is going to start pulling Resistance up by its bootstraps.

3 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

...*tests take* seems pretty cold, probably leave it in the oven for a few hours

As important as the dish is what you choose to wash it down with...

4 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

Hot take - Zizi Tlo is probably better than you think it is, and is going to start pulling Resistance up by its bootstraps.

3 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

...*tests take* seems pretty cold, probably leave it in the oven for a few hours

Yeah idk if hot take. If others aren't aware of Zizi, they're already wrong.

Now this is a "hot take": Zizi is more atrociously costed now than Lulo was at his lowest cost. Arguably, Zizi's cost should probably start with a "5" (at least with Adv Optics so 46).

2 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

As important as the dish is what you choose to wash it down with...

Salt, it's always salt

3 minutes ago, RStan said:

Yeah idk if hot take. If others aren't aware of Zizi, they're already wrong.

Now this is a "hot take": Zizi is more atrociously costed now than Lulo was at his lowest cost. Arguably, Zizi's cost should probably start with a "5" (at least with Adv Optics so 46).

Nuance was lost in text... We all saw it and went 'wow - that's good'. Having played with it for a solid 9 games this weekend, she exceeded my high expectations. Lived in all but one game, lost half in one other.

And yes, comically undercosted.

1 hour ago, Micanthropyre said:

I love stirring the pot with some extended love here but I disagree with you.

There are a lot of really interesting things in Hyperspace, and the route they went in picking out specific pilots and upgrades is an exciting development for the future of competitive X-Wing. I do think a big mistake was made by leaving Slave One in the format. I do agree that there is a real chance that checkbox one for playing in a hyperspace event is to be able to beat specifically Boba, and that he'll occupy an unhealthily large percent of the cuts and therefore limit some of the really cool things we'd otherwise see.

We agree on this, although I don't think slave 1 is such a big culprit as the last pages seem to imply.

Being able to play Boba with Maul and fenn being also legal it's worse imo.

Not that slave 1 is bad, it's pretty clearly pretty good. But passives modifiers are kings of this game

1 hour ago, Micanthropyre said:

EDIT:

Forgot the part where I disagree with you: I don't think that we are going to see 1.0 levels of lack of diversity. I don't think that Boba is "play boba or lose" though if I were a top player who wanted specifically to win I would probably be taking Boba Fenn.

It's not just boba, it's the scum faction as a whole: Fenn fangs are also great and their generics are some of the most efficient in the format.

Boba fenn is just the clear culprit, but even stuff like light Boba with fenn and a third ship is top tier for example, as are oli 4 fangs which got point discounted by a lot for no real reason

7 minutes ago, RStan said:

Yeah idk if hot take. If others aren't aware of Zizi, they're already wrong.

Now this is a "hot take": Zizi is more atrociously costed now than Lulo was at his lowest cost. Arguably, Zizi's cost should probably start with a "5" (at least with Adv Optics so 46).

For context:

• Zizi Tlo: 40 points.
• L'ulo L'ampar at release: 38 points (and Trick Shot was still 1 point).

15 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Salt, it's always salt

Not my choice, but I do understand it is most space-crack pilot's favorite side.

I was thinking something sweeter, perhaps more optimistic?

18 minutes ago, RStan said:

Yeah idk if hot take. If others aren't aware of Zizi, they're already wrong. Now this is a "hot take": Zizi is more atrociously costed now than Lulo was at his lowest cost. Arguably, Zizi's cost should probably start with a "5" (at least with Adv Optics so 46).

Logic.

9 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

For context:

• Zizi Tlo: 40 points.
• L'ulo L'ampar at release: 38 points (and Trick Shot was still 1 point).

...come on Fig, we all know they price 'em to sell, let the joy and wrath rise, and wack 'em later. It's the FFG way; and it's quite fun to observe.

1 minute ago, clanofwolves said:

Logic.

...come on Fig, we all know they price 'em to sell, let the joy and wrath rise, and wack 'em later. It's the FFG way; and it's quite fun to observe.

Thats why things like the mining guild tie and landos falcon dominated the meta for so long.

2 hours ago, gennataos said:

Some people's view of Boba in the Hyperspace meta

Every time I play against Boba in the Hyperspace meta

It's almost like kitting against a list does a pretty good job of shutting it down.

Or, more realistically, like no list is an auto-win in Hyperspace, even the theoretical worst offenders.

Or, as a stretch, like the decrease on generics across the board makes the positioning and arc-dodging game surprisingly somewhat harder for ace players?

10 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

We agree on this, although I don't think slave 1 is such a big culprit as the last pages seem to imply.

Being able to play Boba with Maul and fenn being also legal it's worse imo.

Not that slave 1 is bad, it's pretty clearly pretty good. But passives modifiers are kings of this game

It's not just boba, it's the scum faction as a whole: Fenn fangs are also great and their generics are some of the most efficient in the format.

Boba fenn is just the clear culprit, but even stuff like light Boba with fenn and a third ship is top tier for example, as are oli 4 fangs which got point discounted by a lot for no real reason

I wouldn't complain about Maul getting cut from Hyperspace.

I generally try to not comment on Fenn. I'm extremely biased, because I think he's a terribly designed pilot that in general should just be priced out of the game.

Zealots are probably undercosted by 1 point but thats not really meta warping. I don't see 4 Fearless Skulls being a problem in the game though, probably occupying the same power space as 5x (which I also don't think is going to be a problem).

I agree, Scum is the faction to beat. Autoblaster Scyks are even pretty fair. However, these discussions are indicative of why I think people are hyped over Hyperspace, because the door has been opened for better refinement to the format. In every faction there are so many different options and tweaks and they all only feel like percentage points different in power level, or you can change things up depending on what you expect the meta to be at the tournament. This is why the Scum problem has me a little on edge: it threatens what looks to be a really amazing format that balances list building phase with the actual game. I want to be able to tweak my list a little to help me gain an edge, but I want that edge to be small, because if I guess wrong I want to still be competitive.

How’s this for a hot take? Boba and Fenn doesn’t have the damage output to contend with FOcho. They average about 25 points per round of shooting with both guns on the table, and are unlikely to get more than three turns of aggression before starting to lose points.

A very patient player can delay and get the win 75-(Fenn or half of boba) but most people playing it will lose one and never be able to catch back up with a single gun on the table.

Mass cheap generics is good against two ship lists, even Boba.

edit: I was playing Poe/zizi/3xFireball and just put a big ol juicy fireball in front of Fenn every turn of combat that I was worried, and he punched them really hard and claimed his 13 points and felt good about it, I guess?

1 minute ago, AEIllingworth said:

How’s this for a hot take? Boba and Fenn doesn’t have the damage output to contend with FOcho. They average about 25 points per round of shooting with both guns on the table, and are unlikely to get more than three turns of aggression before starting to lose points.

A very patient player can delay and get the win 75-(Fenn or half of boba) but most people playing it will lose one and never be able to catch back up with a single gun on the table.

Mass cheap generics is good against two ship lists, even Boba.

I haven't played against focho, but unless Boba for some reason choose to joust on open field, he can totally bump one and shrug off many 2 reds attacks by just rerolling and almost infinite force. Then drop a bomb and disengage thanks to cibernetica, all while fenn deletes something.

Sure it's not autowin, but as long as you don't get shot by 8 ties in the same turn boba should be able to win on points and the longer the game goes the worse it gets for focho

That's just theory based on non focho swarms experience, so might be inaccurate

9 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

I was playing Poe/zizi/3xFireball

@Boom Owl already said things, but people won't believe. No need to elaborate.

19 minutes ago, gennataos said:

@Boom Owl already said things, but people won't believe. No need to elaborate.

Im definitely enjoying Poe + 4-5. That is very different than it being good though.
Mostly I don't believe anyone so every list I play in hyperspace is pretty much fine.

3 hours ago, Dreadai said:

Might want to watch round 5-6 day 1 on mute as the commentator got a bit 'tipsy')

FUN DETECTED, ABOLISH FUN

3 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

As I said some pages ago, I'm worried HS is an hot mess because Boba and Fenn are legal with all the tools they need to dominate the format.

I'm not sure if it will be already the case at the UK SOS since it's still early in the format and many people will still prefer to play their own homebrew, but in the long run I predict HS will be even worse than most 1.0 meta was as far as list diversity is concerned.

The only unknown factors are the new 2 ships, maybe Vonreg or 26 points fireball will be instrumental in lists which will hardcounter Boba, other than that I really fail to see where HS enthusiasm comes from

You and @GreenDragoon should really put down some metric for measuring hot mess, otherwies it's hard to have predictions like this be meaningful

2 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

Let the record show:

I always hated generics, and swarms are ruining the game.

Swarms are the devil.

Boba was always my ally.

Ready for a Johnson to rage at me for daring to suggest that generics be playable again, while clutching his boba and his regen

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Im definitely enjoying Poe + 4-5. That is very different than it being good though.

Is it?

I don’t know what the “good” bar is, where it’s set. I guess it’s Boba, where you either opt in or opt out at your leisure? The same holds for fangs, but they require more finesse and usually just have to opt in more often. At least, that’s the way I’ve always played with or against them.

I wonder if people are thinking about that. I mean, if they’re playing against Boba and/or fangs and thinking about how they can opt in and if they can force them to opt out.

16 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Is it?

I don’t know what the “good” bar is, where it’s set. I guess it’s Boba, where you either opt in or opt out at your leisure? The same holds for fangs, but they require more finesse and usually just have to opt in more often. At least, that’s the way I’ve always played with or against them.

I wonder if people are thinking about that. I mean, if they’re playing against Boba and/or fangs and thinking about how they can opt in and if they can force them to opt out.

For the record, I out right dont care at all about Boba Fenn. It exists along with Fenn + Squad. Its no more relevant to me than Quad Purple Regen, Falcon Stuff, Yeetlo, or Pinata Party. Boba is entirely talked about to much given the absurd variety of other lists in Hyperspace to think about how to play against. He will be popular because players are generally bad and escape to the closest thing to a purple 360 fat turret two ship list that can joust at all times.

Mostly I dont overthink list building in hyperspace. I just pick stuff that I enjoy that makes sense and try to play it well. Its been working well so far. Playing well seems to matter alot more than it does in extended where I just pick Aces load them up with ordinance or regen and yolo partial joust. Vast majority of the matchups in hyperspace at least for now while people are still confused are in game problems not list building problems.

As far as Poe...he still seems pretty toned down besides black one so I am keeping Poe+ lists firmly in "this is fine" tier instead of "this is good tier".

14 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

As far as Poe...he still seems pretty toned down besides black one so I am keeping Poe+ lists firmly in "this is fine" tier instead of "this is good tier".

I'm just curious from reading this thread: What does make it into the "this is good" tier?

People say Boba (but they mean Boba/Maul/Slave 1). Many of them think Fenn as well. Both remain to be proven. Other than that though, what is undisputedly "good?" Even 5X doesn't hold that honor as far as I can tell.

5 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I'm just curious from reading this thread: What does make it into the "this is good" tier?

Thats a great question! I unironically dont know because Hyperspace is actually fun now.

@Sunitsa

By dominate I mean what is given as secondary bullet point. The specific numbers are 100% not the best cut offs, but they are a start for discussion.

And I just checked my top51 back in May 2019 to correct my gut feeling for diverse/mess. What I don't consider to be a mess:

Quote

There were 295 different combinations played. 67 of them (23%) made up 71% of all lists that were played (995/1402). Out of those 67, 58 made cut.

What I'd count as "mess":

• Few lists dominate cuts
  • up to 5 lists have a cut conversion rate of 2xbase conversion. For example, if 20% make cut then 40% is seen as dominating. Taking that list doubles your chance to make cut.
• Few lists/ship combinations dominate the field
  • less than 20 ship combinations that were played 4x or more often make up more than 66% of lists (swiss and/or cut?)
• A single playstyle (maybe two) dominate
  • maybe more lists, but all with the same playstyle. Efficiency spam, aces, swarm, control, 2ship lists
• Two factions dominate
  • more than 50% of cut factions are from 2 factions.
• Few pilots dominate
  • more than 40% of lists in a faction have a certain pilot (note that this was the case for Wedge, Lulo, Kylo, Anakin. And they definitely dominated their factions).
• As consequence, listbuilding is a large part in determining the outcome

Thoughts? Do these qualify as dominating or do they seem too/not enough strict?
Just as reminder, GhostFenn was at around 15% of the field two years ago and considered to be everywhere.

6 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I'm just curious from reading this thread: What does make it into the "this is good" tier?

People say Boba (but they mean Boba/Maul/Slave 1). Many of them think Fenn as well. Both remain to be proven. Other than that though, what is undisputedly "good?" Even 5X doesn't hold that honor as far as I can tell.

In hyperspace I don’t think we fully know yet, but pretty much everything seems fine?

Zizi Tlo, Boba, possibly Fenn, Luke?, Ten Numb?, Leia, Kylo are the current candidates, I think?

Against non-snap Zizi's it's best to focus down the A's that can't handle focus fire (basically anyone else so long as it's not Ronith). 5A's can just decide to live forever, so every shot is precious and cannot afford to be wasted on a trap. Especially since blocked not Zizi's and not Ronith's have effectively 0 mods when defending. It's a tad annoying that for this under-costed A of the week, rather than dying faster with the ability triggering like Lulo, Zizi dies slower by default. Resistance needs the help though, so I can't complain if it brings factional balance to the game.

The ace pack did an interesting job in spicing up the game. Lehuse makes SF gunner an upgrade that doesn't belong on just Quickdraw. Vagabond makes bombing strikers more of a thing outside Duchess' "back off" tech. Leia gives Rebels their 2nd movie force user. Vengeful droid for Scum offers the possibility of using the M3 as the blocker and not the Z95.