16 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Probably doesn't hold, unless you have a very strict definiton of ace:

Imdaar: 44, Whisper 57

Delta: 69 (nice), Rexler 81
Academy 23, Scourge 32

Epsilon 26, Midnight 43 (lmao)

Lothal 68, Hera 73

RZ2As are probably the best counterexample, and the aciest example: 33 points for the generic who is good not great, and 36 points for tallie who is good not great.

Yeah, I didn't make a definition, just observed a trend in aces of arguably midrange ships. Really big and really small ships scale extra weird.

Deltas and Lothals have a price floor to prevent triple takes, and also have a surprisingly high percentage of the capability of their "ace" counterpart. Hera and Rexler definitely bring advantages, but not as much as the Obiwan or Soontir do to their ships. They're a weird case where the core value is built on the ship chassis and not the assembled parts. A-wings are similarly strong base frames.

Like is said, though, not a hard and fast rule, but makes you think. Makes me think, at least.

16 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

I’m just gonna drop this here. We’ll discuss it after the fuse marker is removed.

"The most spectacular, if least effective, way to spend 14pts"

-me

MOAR FACTION PRIZES, PLZ.

I think that's the only thing that can help me manage the expectation/disappointment balance.

I want someone to win all that System Open awesome-looking Inferno Squad stuff with Inferno Squad. Good luck, brave soldier.

35 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Probably doesn't hold, unless you have a very strict definiton of ace:

Imdaar: 44, Whisper 57

Delta: 69 (nice), Rexler 81
Academy 23, Scourge 32

Epsilon 26, Midnight 43 (lmao)

Lothal 68, Hera 73

RZ2As are probably the best counterexample, and the aciest example: 33 points for the generic who is good not great, and 36 points for tallie who is good not great.

Jesus balls, I forgot the Imdaar was still 44. I put forth a challenge before one of the Phantom nerfs of "Could you solo an Imdaar with a Blue Squadron?". Those ships are separated by 3 pts and I'd imagine that challenge has, at best, a 10% win rate.

1 minute ago, MasterShake2 said:

Jesus balls, I forgot the Imdaar was still 44. I put forth a challenge before one of the Phantom nerfs of "Could you solo an Imdaar with a Blue Squadron?". Those ships are separated by 3 pts and I'd imagine that challenge has, at best, a 10% win rate.

🤨 Blue Squaddies are I2, Imdaars are I3. Same question but swapped out for a Red Vet as a closer comparison (1 point difference instead of the 3 point, Red Vets are 43):

I guess a different way to phrase my tentative 2:1 rule of thumb is that for a "normal" 3 dice forward arc, reposition action, mid range hp, single action ship, adding high initiative, an extra mod, and maybe a utility upgrade roughly doubles its value.

29 minutes ago, gennataos said:

MOAR FACTION PRIZES, PLZ.

I think that's the only thing that can help me manage the expectation/disappointment balance.

I want someone to win all that System Open awesome-looking Inferno Squad stuff with Inferno Squad. Good luck, brave soldier.

That can be you!

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

That can be you!

I'm pretty sure it can't.

25 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

🤨 Blue Squaddies are I2, Imdaars are I3. Same question but swapped out for a Red Vet as a closer comparison (1 point difference instead of the 3 point, Red Vets are 43):

Alright, Make it Red Vet and give the Red Vet initiative, does the Red Vet win more than 10%?

Or don't, let the Red Vet have iniative and still get screwed over every time it guess the decloak wrong or just get hosed by the action economy. That definitely improves win rate, but up to what? Does that account for the difference of 1pt especially when you almost auto-lose if you have move first?

I fully understand and appreciate the point you're trying to arrive at, but I would like you to understand the point I'm also trying to arrive at i.e. a ship with more actions, maneuverability, initiative and comparable stats should pay a much more significant tax than ships like the Imdaar or many aces do. Paying 1-3 less points to never win is not a bargain.

8 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I'm pretty sure it can't.

So you're saying there's a chance!

You want an even more hilarious pricing mismatch?

Dash: 100

Super Kylo: 100

No, I'm not salty at all that my record with Dash + Chopper is 2 - 6. Not salty.

I am afraid of certain clutch pieces being removed from the hyperspace rotation, which is a good thing. It forces me to try new things, especially in the legacy factions. Sadly, Snap Torani won't likely be hyperspace legal--let alone Snap Airen--but Snap Turr will have lots of fun. Especially with Soontir rotated out.

12 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Alright, Make it Red Vet and give the Red Vet initiative, does the Red Vet win more than 10%?

Or don't, let the Red Vet have iniative and still get screwed over every time it guess the decloak wrong or just get hosed by the action economy. That definitely improves win rate, but up to what? Does that account for the difference of 1pt especially when you almost auto-lose if you have move first?

I fully understand and appreciate the point you're trying to arrive at, but I would like you to understand the point I'm also trying to arrive at i.e. a ship with more actions, maneuverability, initiative and comparable stats should pay a much more significant tax than ships like the Imdaar or many aces do. Paying 1-3 less points to never win is not a bargain.

We're actually in agreement conclusion wise, just differing as to which pilots should be used in the comparison. I was presenting roughly the same stance during the discussions earlier this year when the masses were calling for Juke nerfs yet the issues at the time were the ships Juke was being put on and not the upgrade. Juke got nuked and I3 and I4 Phantoms are still broken good at their current points (which barely got touched).

16 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

We're actually in agreement conclusion wise, just differing as to which pilots should be used in the comparison. I was presenting roughly the same stance during the discussions earlier this year when the masses were calling for Juke nerfs yet the issues at the time were the ships Juke was being put on and not the upgrade. Juke got nuked and I3 and I4 Phantoms are still broken good at their current points (which barely got touched).

Broadly agree. Juke, even at it's original cost, was mostly useless for the majority of the game. It would've made way more sense to up the price on platforms that evade for free because they stil get value even without juke.

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

We're actually in agreement conclusion wise, just differing as to which pilots should be used in the comparison. I was presenting roughly the same stance during the discussions earlier this year when the masses were calling for Juke nerfs yet the issues at the time were the ships Juke was being put on and not the upgrade. Juke got nuked and I3 and I4 Phantoms are still broken good at their current points (which barely got touched).

1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

Broadly agree. Juke, even at it's original cost, was mostly useless for the majority of the game. It would've made way more sense to up the price on platforms that evade for free because they stil get value even without juke.

That makes Juke even MORE autoinclude on those ships then. Stop balancing ships that can get F+E easily around juke and just balance Juke under the pretense that people will only take it if they can get F+E.

Example- If a Sigma was 50 and juke was 4, why would you ever take a Sigma without Juke? They'd be dogshit-tier garbage.

19 hours ago, Tsavong said:

Some of the most fun I've had in aces high is yoloing into the middle of the board with deathfire with this. Then at the start of the next round, dropping another.

As for real games, my experiences against it have mostly just been annoying, but it seems to usually be chaos for both players. Range 2 is massive.

agreed it has the whole “let me interrupt the game” type feel without the nastiness of minefield mapper or trajectory sim nym from 1.0.

17 hours ago, LagJanson said:

It's hilarious but hasn't been too effective on any table I've seen so far. Not that I've seen it a bunch...

• I've had it in a trial list specifically to drop this bomb, and did so within the blast radius just to see what happened.
• My opponent put it in a trial list specifically to drop this bomb, and did so within the blast radius just to see what happened.
• Droid player dropped it in a tournament where my ion armed Scyks were running havoc against him... only to cause much sadness on his own droid forces.

I'm not really sure I want to see it be good though... It inflicts sadness on anything it's dropped on.

Yeah, I definitely don’t want to see it dominate. If the devs are telling us we don’t want a meta where ion is top tier, we really don’t want to see this thing get to good. That being said, it might could come down a point or two, but nothing more than that.

16 hours ago, jagsba said:

Y'all can't even wait for a fuse to go off?

😆

2 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

"The most spectacular, if least effective, way to spend 14pts"

-me

I agree

3 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

That makes Juke even MORE autoinclude on those ships then. Stop balancing ships that can get F+E easily around juke and just balance Juke under the pretense that people will only take it if they can get F+E.

Example- If a Sigma was 50 and juke was 4, why would you ever take a Sigma without Juke? They'd be dogshit-tier garbage.

If hardcore programmatic conditions are deemed too monetarily expensive/unintuitive, I'd like cards like Juke to move in this direction.

Meet us halfway.

Make platforms that can free evade cost - slightly inefficient base, and more inefficient at ept tiers that can take juke.

Bring Juke back down to at least a "okay, maybe useable" on ships with normal ev. Actions, but basically the go-to for free evade ships with epts.

Of course, this does create an entirely different list building decision tree for any squads that have access to those ships.

Would this be a bad thing?

I really like games within games.

What non-'free evade' ship do you want to run Juke on?

1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

If hardcore programmatic conditions are deemed too monetarily expensive/unintuitive, I'd like cards like Juke to move in this direction.

Meet us halfway.

Make platforms that can free evade cost - slightly inefficient base, and more inefficient at ept tiers that can take juke.

Bring Juke back down to at least a "okay, maybe useable" on ships with normal ev. Actions, but basically the go-to for free evade ships with epts.

Of course, this does create an entirely different list building decision tree for any squads that have access to those ships.

Would this be a bad thing?

I really like games within games.

38 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

What non-'free evade' ship do you want to run Juke on?

This

What is with everyone's crazy obsession with juke being too expensive for ships that don't naturally generate evades? Go back and count how often it's used, even at it's original price, on any "normal" ship.

It's like being mad that trajectory Sim isn't good without bombs

41 minutes ago, Brunas said:

This

What is with everyone's crazy obsession with juke being too expensive for ships that don't naturally generate evades? Go back and count how often it's used, even at it's original price, on any "normal" ship.

It's like being mad that trajectory Sim isn't good without bombs

I disagree. I like the idea of ships like A-wings (snap shot or no) being able to increase the value of the evade action, which is often useless in a swarm as only one or two ships actually get shot at.

48 minutes ago, Brunas said:

"normal" ship

Is “normal” the 2020 version of “bad”?

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Is “normal” the 2020 version of “bad”?

Already 2020 here. Just let me know if I can help with any definitions...

Also, happy new year!

1 hour ago, Transmogrifier said:

What non-'free evade' ship do you want to run Juke on?

Um... All of them?

Name a single ship with the evade action that you've ever evaded with that doesn't have Juke equipped?

We don't. Nobody evades.

Three agi + focus is pretty much the right choice every time, especially if you are lower initiative.

Juke gives any low initiative ship with the evade action an actual CHOICE.

7 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Um... All of them?

Name a single ship with the evade action that you've ever evaded with that doesn't have Juke equipped?

We don't. Nobody evades.

Three agi + focus is pretty much the right choice every time, especially if you are lower initiative.

Juke gives any low initiative ship with the evade action an actual CHOICE.

^

So, if we assume the Juking ship isn't getting the evade for free:

1) it has to get an action and that action must be to evade (bumps and red basically turn off the EPT for a turn)

2) If the ship isn't shot at, Juke is just letting your evade do the job of a focus or target lock (slightly better depending on various factors)

3) If the ship is shot at before it engages and has to spend the evade to survive, the EPT is also effectively "off" for that turn

4) If the ship shoots, then gets shot at, it can get maximum value basically being able to use the Evade twice

That's not stellar value, but at low points, would be mildly useful especially for 2 attack ships

The problem is when you get the evade for free, so let's side by side these 3 upgrades:

Crack Shot is once per game and is virtually impossible to land against higher initiative ships. It has the advantage that, whenever you use it, you're garaunteed to get value, but Crack Shot, outside of weird scenarios involving crits or "on hit" effects, is only ever 1 pt of damage and can never be more i.e. when you line it up, you always use it unless you kill the defender without it, they roll no evades, or you roll less damage than their evade total. In that respect, crackshot does have a chance of even setting it up generating no value.

That's a 1pt upgrade and it seems fine, probably minor overuse just because what else are you doing with the EPT slot for most ships

Outmaneuver is interesting because it only works on one type of attack and only if you're not in any of their firing arcs. Not uncommon to pull off, but does require at least a minimum amount of skill even with an ace. The problem with Outmaneuver is that you're only removing a potential result. On a ship with no mods, you have a 62.5% chance of the dice you removed doing absolutely nothing even if you met the requirements and it only drops to a 37.5% on a focused ship, so even on something like a Jedi, setting up that shot, is still useless over a third of the time. It's really useful on double mod ships (like Phantoms and Inquisitiors) where the likelihood of that dice being positive is significantly higher.

That's a 6pt upgrade and sees very little play

Juke, if you assume the evade is free or of so little opportunity cost that it might as well be free, is almost guaranteed to get value at any initiative. We've already removed the question of setup and Juke isn't restricted to primary or front arc so literally any red dice you throw have Juke behind it. At high initiative, it gets value by either depleting offensive tokens or doing extra damage and can also be used for defense. The only way an ace doesn't get value on Juke offensively is if the ace whiffs, the ace rolls so low and the defender so high, it doesn't matter or if the defender has to spend a token on defense, but then doesn't roll in such a way that they would need that token later (even then subsequent Juke attacks are almost guaranteed value against that target unless the defender has multiple focus mods or the attacker/defender whiff). A lower initiative pilot is almost garaunteed value out of Juke because it can almost always find someone with no tokens to pick on (I've done this with Sabine a lot), so again, somebody has to really whiff their rolls for it to not work and if the Evade is free, it doesn't matter if you have to spend it or get to keep it for your attack. While the lower initiative pilot is less likely to double dip, they do almost garauntee value out of their free evade that would otherwise only matter if they were getting shot at. Unlike Outmaneuver, Juke also removes an actual result, not a potential one i.e. you are taking a previously useful dice and making it not useful unless the opponent invests resources into correcting it.

On a ship that gets their evade for free, Juke is undercosted. If we assume Outmaneuver is correct at 6, there is no way Juke on a free evading ship is only 7, it's minimum 8, more likely 9. Even if we assume Outmaneuver is off by a point, I'd still say Juke is easily closer to 8 in value. On a ship that isn't evading for free, this upgrade is worth maybe 3, even 4 is pushing it, but still plausible. And this is why costing upgrades based on the best possible user of that upgrade is just going to result in a bunch of trash upgrades because the best possible users are easily getting double the value or more out of the same card. This strategy also reduces the viability interesting and/or dark horse combos, but generally keeps in tact the viability of the worst offenders i.e. the opposite of what a designer usually wants.

Best of 2019:

• Best Ace - Sun Fac
• Best Turret - Sun Fac
• Best Control - Sun Fac
• Best Support - Sun Fac
• Best Upgrade - Ensnare
• Best Generic - Sigma Phantom
• Best Large Base - YT1300
• Best Medium Base - Firespray
• Best Small Base - Athersprite
• Best "Puzzles"
  • Kanan Han
  • Tripsilon
  • Ensnare+
  • Free Leia
  • Boba Guri
  • Fort Phantom
• Best Faction - Republic
• Best Thematic List - Kylo Snoke Tavson
• Best 💩 Take - "Vultures are the problem"
• Best Format - Aces High

Happy New Year